Heating Help

Any Difference Between "Suntouch" and "Nuheat"?

@ April 27, 2011 8:14 PM in Any Difference Between "Suntouch" and "Nuheat"?

We're planning to install electric heating mats beneath tile floors of a remodeled kitchen and bathroom. The main heating source is forced air, but we want to warm those floors enough to walk around barefoot. The house is brick. The bathroom has one outside facing wall, West, while the kitchen has North and East facing walls.

There are two major brands, "Suntouch" and "Nuheat". Both are available in both 120 and 220 volts. ( Given that both rooms are fairly small, we'll probably opt for 120. )

Are there any major differences between the two? Are there differences in the quality of the controls or sensors? Does either brand have a better reputation for reliability?

We won't be installing the mats or the tile. Those are best left to the pros. We'll stick with the woodwork and painting.

Thanks for your time & attention.

Slight Clarification - Supplemental Source

@ February 20, 2011 6:47 PM in Electric Mat Under Tile - Any Major Differences?

Thanks for the feedback.

We're not as cold as Chicago, but this Winter in St. Louis was a bear.

Ameren electrical rates range between 5 & 7 cents per kwh, from Oct. - May.

The size & shape of the kitchen, with a large window ( new 2X pane ) and two outside facing brick walls plus a porch door, would have been a bear to heat with any under floor hydronic system.

We only intend to use the electric mats to take the edge off the cold tile floors. The actual heating of the rooms will be from the forced air ducts.

Would mats be effective in that role, at those rates, without breaking the bank?

We upgraded from fuses to breakers, but still have 100 amp service for two floors. Do those mats draw a lot of amperage?

We're a little hesitant to go this route since the electric towel warmer we installed in a bathroom renovation almost never gets used.

While we're on the subject of electrical additions, how many electric saunas actually get used as something other than a new closet? Our spouse has had one of those on her mind for years.

Electric Mat Under Tile - Any Major Differences?

@ February 19, 2011 6:35 PM in Electric Mat Under Tile - Any Major Differences?

We've decided to retrofit forced-air into our 1930 brick restoration project rather than replace the frozen cast iron. ( great expense & couldn't trust the pipes. )

Since we've taken out the floors of the 1st floor kitchen and bathroom, and plan to install tile, we'd like to supplement the heat with a warm floor. ( The depths of Midwestern cold preclude effective heating under the wood floors with hydronic systems. )

Are the several brands of under-floor electric mats all about the same, or are there some significant differences in durability and/or efficiency? Any that are particularly tricky to install or "finicky" in operation?

Thanks for your time and attention.

High Efficiency Furnaces - issues?

@ February 7, 2011 5:28 PM in High Efficiency Furnaces - issues?

After a great deal of searching and research, and numerous delays, we've decided that none of the "trick" solutions we've researched are really suitable for the 2 story brick house we're restoring. The original radiators, circa 1930, were removed due to cracking from repeated freezing, and we just can't take the risk of having old pipes go bad.

The "conventional" approach will be to put one furnace in the attic, for the 2nd floor, and another one in the basement to handle the 1st floor. Our contractor has recommended a pair of the 98% Lennox models with 2 stage heat and a variable speed motor.

Are there any issues with these units that we should know about? ( price is not our major concern )

Are there any significant differences between these and similar models from other manufacturers?

Do very high efficiency models require more frequent routine servicing?

Is a variable speed fan and 2 stage heat the current "state of the art"?

Would a two or three speed fan work as well?

Any other helpful suggested are welcome.

Thanks for your time and attention.

Lennox High E Furnace - issues?

@ February 7, 2011 12:16 PM in Lennox High E Furnace - issues?

After a great deal of searching and research, and numerous delays, we've decided that none of the "trick" solutions we've researched are really suitable for the 2 story brick house we're restoring. The original radiators, circa 1930, were removed due to cracking from repeated freezing, and we just can't take the risk of having old pipes go bad.

The "conventional" approach will be to put one furnace in the attic, for the 2nd floor, and another one in the basement to handle the 1st floor. Our contractor has recommended a pair of the 98% Lennox models with 2 stage heat and a variable speed motor.

Are there any issues with these units that we should know about? ( price is not our major concern )

Are there any significant differences between these and similar models from other manufacturers?

Is a variable speed fan and 2 stage heat the current "state of the art"?

Any other helpful suggested are welcome.

Thanks for your time and attention.

We'll Take Our Chances ...

@ December 7, 2010 9:12 PM in Should We Use Old Pipes, or New Ducts?

Figure out the numbers yourself, since the TOS prohibits talking price. There's only one US maker of cast iron radiators. 20 of them, from 2 x 2 to 2 x 7 or so. There are 3500 sq ft, and an adjusted BTU load of 123K. . Have you priced carpenters and floor specialists lately? How are you at re-lathing, plastering, and brick-work? Won the lottery recently?

We don't think it was a low-ball bid. The furnaces were actually "overqualified" 97%+ direct vent & variable output ... more than we need, want, or will purchase. There's no A/C included ... ( we don't need it ).

The house was/is built like a tank. Adjustments are hard-won, expensive, and messy.

A new piping system, even with Pex, would be a nightmare. The second floor is two separate units, and 1/2 of one is cantilevered over a porch. Most of the other 2nd floor radiator pipes, since they're above other windows, aren't a straight drop down. Vertical cuts are bad enough without going sideways through brick & plaster and tearing up floors to boot. Butcher your own house, sir.

We have a new heating system that works fine for now ... a Vermont Castings "Montpelier" fireplace insert with a thermostat controlled, blower.

Been burning Oak & Hickory for almost a week, and it's worked quite well.

It's kept most of the 1st floor at 50 easily ... and it was 15 degrees last night. With a couple strategic electric heaters in the bathrooms, there's no danger of another freeze taking out the Pex. or the small amount of Copper. The foam insulated attic hasn't gone below 40.

We'll get another few bids on hot air, do some research on furnaces ( and direct vent water heaters ), and consult again with an architect, but it looks like "conventional" is where we need to go with this rehab/restoration project.

Thanks for the feedback / Changed mind ... etc.

@ December 7, 2010 4:10 PM in Should We Use Old Pipes, or New Ducts?

The biggest factor in our decision turns out to be "fear of the unknown".

We're aware that used radiators ( tested ) are available, but our spouse doesn't want to take a risk with any major "old" tech components, and cast iron is certainly that.

There's one way to get a better clue: firing up the old boiler, turning on the pump, and waiting to see what happens. We're just not willing to take that step.

Two reasons: the numbers are way, way, out of whack, and the pipes above the basement are just not accessible without major tear-outs. Since unpainted woodwork & original floors are a large part of the buildings charm, we just can't put them at further risk.

To replace all the cast iron, just the radiators, would cost about as much as 2 complete high efficiency furnaces ( basement/attic ) with 2 zones, ducts and returns, installed. Add in the cost of mod-con boiler, pump, new expansion tank, plus installation, and it gets much higher

Though installing ducts, cutting holes, & all will be a mess, and not as comfortable as hydronic, we won't have to worry about cracked cast iron pipes leaking all over at the worst possible time ... ( that's ever ).

Now we have questions about furnace features & sizing ... will start another thread.

Thanks everyone.

How exactly can we do that?

@ December 1, 2010 2:51 PM in Should We Use Old Pipes, or New Ducts?

" just install new pipe with new radiators. Why would you want to destroy your walls and ceilings trying to put in leaky, drafty hot air heat"

Well, for one thing, we'd have to destroy walls & floors & ceilings to remove the old pipes and install new stuff ... either pex or pipe. It's a brick building with heavy lathe & plaster walls.

What's the cost of a steam radiator anyway? Less than hot-water?

Those new Burnham cast-iron radiators will average well over $1K each.

When we checked the BTU output of Buderus, Myson, Burnham, and Runtal flat panels, none of them put out enough heat. The "Thermo Tech" models might work, but they're made in Turkey, & if not in US stock, it's a long, long, time to get shipment.

We haven't thought about steam heat ... we'll have to check out that possibility.

Should We Use Old Pipes, or New Ducts?

@ November 30, 2010 4:13 PM in Should We Use Old Pipes, or New Ducts?

We've been getting contradictory feedback for quite a while, and it's time to make a decision. Should we use the old pipes, or install a new set of ducts & returns?

The 2 story brick house was built in 1930 with hot water radiators. ( it was a first-rate job, built by an architect as his personal residence ) The previous owner was a recluse who allowed the gas and water to be disconnected for two years, so most of the radiators froze and cracked.

All the first floor radiators were bunko, but five upstairs remain intact. There were 20 originally, including 2 hanging from joists in the basement. When the broken cast-iron was removed, the pipes sealed, and pressure tested, the pipes held. ( there was one odd, small, in-wall unit with cracked pipe, but it was easily cut off, & isn't needed )

If those pipes are still reliable ( the Big Question ) we can either find wall panels that put out enough BTU's and allow opposite/bottom connection ( not easy ), or spend big. big, bucks for new cast iron.

If those 70 year old iron pipes, and their threaded joints, can't be relied on to hold water for another several decades, we'll have to consider the only other option: ductwork from the attic down and basement up.

Is it worth the risk to use the old pipe system ( with a new mod/com boiler ) or should we err on the side of caution and go with all new equipment?

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Too much upkeep ... etc.

@ November 18, 2010 11:24 PM in Direct Vent Models?

The problem with tankless is the mineral content of our water.

The water quality is good, but the mineral content requires acid cleaning tankless heaters on a yearly basis. No thanks.

They are well suited to 3rd floor applications, but this is only 2, and all the lines are already Pex.

We're actually thinking of two separate heaters ... one for each floor.

There won't be any dishwashers or laundry up there, just two small kitchens & baths.

When not used, they can be on "vacation" during the Winter to keep from freezing, or turned off entirely in the Summer.

Direct Vent Models?

@ November 8, 2010 10:22 AM in Direct Vent Models?

We're restoring an old house and want to go with a direct-vent gas hot water system with air input & exhaust piped through a basement window. Since it's a three unit building, ( 2 small 2nd floor units ) it needs a larger than usual model ( 40 - 50 gallons ) but it won't actually be needing that much most of the time. There won't be tenants, and the new Pex lines allow us to shut off the upstairs hot water when unused.

Are there any major differences between major brands?

( Unpowered vents are preferred. )

Any differences in installation?

Any with better warranties?

Thanks for your help.

How to get thinner floors?

@ October 8, 2010 3:26 PM in How to get thinner floors?

We have three 1st floor rooms that we want to convert to radiant floor heat. The house is being restored, with the remaining hot water radiators being replaced with low-water Euro units. ( most of the cast iron was broken, but the pipes hold pressure )

One is a bedroom, where the original wood floor had to be ripped up exposing the subfloor from 1930. The bathroom was gutted for minor enlargement so the subfloor is gone ... bare to the joists. The kitchen floor is old linoleum tile, over plywood, over subfloor.

The plan is to do radiant heat & tile floors in all three, but matching to the existing floors seems to be a problem.

One prospective contractor suggested using rock-board, or Hardie-board, or a similar product over the pex panels on top of the subfloor ( instead of floating in a layer of mix ) and then attaching the tile to that board. Would that work? 1/2 in. board minimum?

Would we be better off tearing out the rest of the subfloor and starting from the joists?

The kitchen has two outside facing walls ( brick ), plus a large window ( being replaced with a double-pane ), and a porch door with 12 glass windows ( plus a storm door ).

There might not be enough floor to heat it with radiant one the cabinets are installed, minus the space under the refrigerator.

Comments or suggestions are certainly appreciated.

Mix & Match radiators - bad idea?

@ October 5, 2010 1:25 PM in Mix & Match radiators - bad idea?

Since all attempts to go "green" and "sustainable" have gone down in flames, we're left with an old brick building that can best be heated with the existing system: hot water.

The pipes are good, so we'll mate a very high-E boiler, and a high-E water heater, ( suggestions welcome ) to the existing connections, and add the valves needed to supply radiant heat to three 1st floor rooms.

When we received our first bids for replacing the broken cast-iron units, there was sticker-shock. Using steel panel radiators was just as expensive, and had lower BTU output for comparable sizes. So much for that idea.

We did some research online and connected with a distributor of Jaga radiators, a low-water unit from Europe. Using pdf charts of BTU output with 160 degree water, and a detailed heat-load for each room, we were able to find units that would fit the available spaces, and put out the required heat. Though we don't have an exact cost, due to shipping and questions of connection hardware, it looks like they would be less than half the cost of new cast-iron or flat-panel steel.

We thought we could get away with replacing only the broken units with Jaga's, and leave the existing cast-iron units in place ( with new valves only ) on the 2nd floor. Only two upstairs cast iron radiators were cracked due to cold.

One of the HVAC contractors who toured the building recently ( to plan the radiant floor sections ) told us that since it's a two story building, with three separate units ( 2 up, 1 down ) on a single water system, the low water units on the 1st floor would shut down the boiler before the 2nd floor cast-iron radiators could get warm enough.

If that's correct, is there any ( inexpensive ) way around it?

Should the radiators we use be "all or nothing?"

Are any other radiators available in the USA that are comparable to the Jaga's?

Here are some Jaga links:

http://www.jaga-usa.com/Low.aspx#Studies

http://www.jaga-usa.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ID=1_2

http://www.jaga-usa.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ID=1_8


Thanks for your time & attention.

Onward & Upward - Thanks!

@ September 3, 2010 10:06 AM in Higher Efficiency Pumps & Motors?

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback and guidance.

We'll be double-checking the heat load, & probably do the "blower door" one more time, try a DIY calculator, and consult with local HVAC contractors before sizing the boiler. ( Might also calculate the heat output of the existing radiators, if only for comparison. )

The reason for the high heat load is probably the windows. Though most are tight, there are a lot of them ... 34 double hung, 10 casement w/leaded glass, and 7 doors with 8 - 12 glass panes in each. If that weren't enough, there are 15 basement windows!

( The stone foundation rises 45 in. above grade. Basement headroom: is 6 1/2 ft. )

We plan to install low-E storms over the windows, and have installed 3 storm doors. Other energy saving measures include a High-E ( non catalytic ) wood burning insert for the 1st floor fireplace, and 6 High-E ceiling fans to circulate the air.

More questions will surely follow, as we examine options, and make decisions.

Have a Great Holiday Weekend!

Boiler & Pump Specs - etc.

@ September 1, 2010 10:09 AM in Higher Efficiency Pumps & Motors?

The pump motor says: "Bell & Gossett Booster" - Series 100 - A98.

Below, in a separate box, it says "18" and next to that "225" with a "degree" circle.

It also says: 1/12 H.P. - 1725 RPM - 1 PH - 60 CY.

The pump itself has a casting mark that seems to say "P00351". ( Hard to read )

The boiler is a Hydro Therm Model R210B "Low Pressure Boiler". Serial # RJ1333

Input 210K BTU/hr - DOE Heating Capacity 164K BTU/hr -

Net IBR Rating 142,600 BTU/hr

One calculation, done by a "green consultant" with a blower door and room dimensions, said the heating load was 150K BTU/hr and that the boiler was undersized. We haven't a clue how well the old boiler heated the house, but it appears to have been very inefficient. It's a quirky, 2 story brick house, with three separate units, 3500 sq. ft. brick. The two upstairs units were used as rentals. The previous owner was a recluse with "mental issues" who allowed the water and gas to be turned off for two years while he continued to live there alone. The last records available from the gas utility showed four months, November to February, started over $400 and topped off at $670 per month!

( Another calculation will be done by an actual HVAC contractor, but they will base it on the number of windows and the outside dimensions. )

The interior of the attic has been coated with foam, and many air leaks filled, but low-E storm windows haven't been fitted yet.

Will this one work?

@ August 31, 2010 1:29 PM in Higher Efficiency Pumps & Motors?

Since there was *zero* response to our question, we did some online research and found a possible solution: grundfos pumps.

This "Alpha" model appears to fit on a residential boiler.

http://net.grundfos.com/doc/webnet/poweredby/gpu/US/alpha.html

http://net.grundfos.com/doc/webnet/poweredby/gpu/US/why_alpha.html

How do we determine what capacity range / flow rate to use?

Or is that necessary since the Alpha pump adjusts automatically?

http://net.grundfos.com/doc/webnet/poweredby/gpu/US/why_alpha.html

Higher Efficiency Pumps & Motors?

@ August 28, 2010 1:33 PM in Higher Efficiency Pumps & Motors?

After wandering through the wilderness of "renewable energy", we've reluctantly concluded that there isn't any way , in our particular circumstances, to do it on a cost effective basis. ( Too much shade for solar, not enough wind, etc. etc. )

So, we're back to square-one with the original heating system: hot water & radiators.

Most of the radiators are cracked and need replacement, but the pipes are holding pressure. The old gas boiler ( Hydro Therm ) is at least 25 years old, probably more.

( We'll ask about high-E boilers & replacement radiators in a later post, after further online research. )

Right now, we're looking for little tweaks that could improve overall efficiency.

The electrical pump and motor that circulates the hot water must be a technology as old, if not older, than the boiler itself. Have there been any significant improvements?

If more efficient and/or more durable combinations are available, are they supplied by the boiler manufacturers, or are they a 3rd party option? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

What's an "Average Correction Factor"?

@ August 10, 2010 10:29 PM in What's an "Average Correction Factor"?

We researched Jaga low temperature ( and low water ) radiators, advertised to operate at 104 degrees, with the ability to use higher temperatures.

There's a series of charts labeled "Average Correction Factors" and "Mean Temperatures By 1 GPM - Reference: 160°F (71°C)"

Link: http://www.jaga-usa.com/downloads/Energy_Savers_technical_information.pdf

Since the hot water source we're considering ( gas absorption geo-thermal ) produces 140 degree water, the numbers just look confusing. What's to be gained going from 104 to140, or to 160? Does it make a significant difference? What's getting "corrected"?

If a heat pump system is rated at 132K BTU/Hr, is that the upper limit of the heat that it can deliver no matter what the water temperature, or the size, number, or design of the radiators used?

Tile, carpet, or wood on floor?

@ August 1, 2010 9:35 AM in Tile, carpet, or wood on floor?

The crew has almost demolished the 1st floor bathroom in our 1930 brick bastion. Removing a closet that opened in another room adds precious floor space.

We plan radiant floor heat there, as well as in an adjoining bedroom and kitchen.

The rest of the house will use new, probably cast iron, radiators and hot water.

What to put down under and on top of the new floors?

Pre-fab radiant underflooring ( not designed for new construction ) will go on the existing heavy duty underfloor. Are there any particular brands with significant advantages?

( We can live with the slight rise in height at the thresholds ... going down to the joists would be a heavy added expense. )

What guidelines are there for radiant floor coverings?

Special tile? Special grout? Anything to avoid like the plague?

Everything that's not tile is an insulator, right?

Are there special pads and carpets for under radiant floors?

How much heat will we lose by re- installing hardwood back in the bedroom?

( The floor there had already been removed ... the previous owner had "issues". )

Thanks for your time & attention

Gas Powered Heat Pumps?

@ July 28, 2010 10:24 AM in Gas Powered Heat Pumps?

The more we looked at ground source heat pumps, the less we liked.

The huge expense, plus what is basically an electrical system, turned us off.

We want to use existing radiators, plus three rooms of radiant floor heating.

The idea of gas powered heat pumps that can use solar hot-water to power the boiler during daylight hours sounds great.

Unfortunately, the only unit that can do it ( Robur ) isn't "approved" for the USA.

What other companies that distribute here make these units? ( Gas Absorbtion heat pumps, Not "chillers" )

We're Not interested in any combo hot air furnace and heat pumps ( horribly stupid, in our situation ).

Ideally, we could get boiler heat, potable hot water, and powered AC splits in one system. Solar capability would be great ( but *not* those BS Lennox PV add-on units )

Solar Powered / Assisted Hot Water Radiators?

@ July 21, 2010 9:40 PM in Solar Powered / Assisted Hot Water Radiators?

Our 1930 brick rehab is progressing, but "renewable" HVAC remains elusive.

In the middle of the country, it gets very cold in Winter with hot & humid Summers.

Most of the existing radiators were long, low, thin, and broken wide open.

The pipes, on the other hand, passed a pressures test and are ready to go.

New radiators are available, flat panel solar hot water collectors are available, high efficiency gas boilers are available, and well insulated holding tanks are available.

Can they be made to work together to produce enough hot water to justify the cost?

Maybe even do radiant floor tubing under tile in a few rooms?

We know that lower temperatures than originally designed might work, but only if the size of the radiators is increased. ( Since the originals were low and thin, low and thick might be the only available fix short of moving pipes around. )

The relatives of the previous owner installed a new 40 gallon commercial quality water heater before they decided to sell the house. Once a proper flue liner is installed, it will be very hard to justify the coast of a solar potable hot water array.

We'll be getting a new reading on our solar exposure soon ... a neighbor has indicated a willingness to part with a few Oak branches, and we'd happily lose another Elm.

The very last thing we want is to run ducts for everything, and that's what the heat-pump contractors want to use with their geothermal loops. ( 8 - 10 tons from 10 holes )

Window A/C is acceptable .. we can live with it, especially since we're insulating and sealing air leaks. Mini-splits could be added later, we suspect, but they evidently aren't very compatible with geothermal systems.

Right now the simplest, least hassle renewable we've found is a PV array on the roof hooked to the electric utility. Every other retrofitted "solution" we've seen either has very long payback, or absurd upfront costs plus a requirement for poking numerous holes in solid, historic, structures.

Thanks for your time and attention.

Mini-Splits with Radiators & Geo-Thermal?

@ July 8, 2010 7:33 PM in Mini-Splits with Radiators & Geo-Thermal?

We're trying to figure out how to heat & cool an historic pile of bricks.

Built in 1930, two stories, three units, hot water radiators ... mostly broken.

The pipes passed a pressure test, so new radiators and a 92%+ boiler could work.

Or, we could do a geo-thermal heat-pump in the back yard, and duct air from a unit in the attic down, and from the basement up to the first floor. A supplemental water tank would also handle most of the plumbing hot water.

There's the higher expense of ducting & making holes, plus the aesthetic of cutting up old woodwork. ( 30% $$$ offset through the government should certainly help ) There's also the "dryness" issue with both heat & AC coming through cut vents.

So, can we combine the best of both?

Can we use a geo-thermal heat-pump system ( with a 92%+ gas backup boiler ) to handle a new set of radiators, and combine it with mini-split A/C units for cooling in the Summer?

It would probably take 8 mini's to cover both floors. ( The place was previously cooled with 4 window A/C units.

The front of the roof is hipped, with enough room in the attic for a unit & easy venting options. The back part is flat, with enough room left to crawl back & run ductwork. The space above, over the joists, has all been "foamed". There are two skylights up there as well.

There is a clear channel from the basement to the attic & roof via the chimney of an old incinerator. It might be possible to run lines through there. We have "shade issues" that prevent Solar and PV applications from being practical, and little sustained wind, so geo-thermal is our only available "green" option.

Thanks for your time and attention.