Heating Help

Rustoleum Paint

@ April 30, 2012 5:03 PM in Replacement parts for steam supply valve

Looks great!  I have not used that color, but I have used Rustoleum Antique Brass and another one that is either called Dark Bronze or Antique Bronze.  I like the look of the metalic colors, they are similar to some of the old bronze paints that were available to radiators 100 years ago.  I have found them to be very durable and generally a good finish.

Valve Renewed!

@ April 30, 2012 3:32 PM in Replacement parts for steam supply valve

Excellent job on rebuilding the valve.  You followed nearly the same path as I did.  Finding parts that were close, and then trimming them to fit the valve.  It looks fantastic and is surely good for another 100 years!

pictures

@ April 22, 2012 5:35 PM in F&T traps on commercial buildings.

You're welcome,
As Gerry has said, sketches and pictures would help a lot.

Terminology

@ April 21, 2012 11:38 PM in edr of fan convectors

A good thing to remember is that a convector has no fan.  The heat is disseminated by convection.  When a convector looking type of unit has a fan to induce circulation, it is called a fan coil.  The type of units that you are referring to here are Unit Ventilators, or more commonly called, Uni-vents.  They work great in classroom situations because they also have a fresh air connection and are able to bring in a required amount of fresh air in a classroom filled with breathing kids.  If the temperature of the room starts to increase above the thermostat set point, the dampers will index to let in more fresh air and the blowers will discharge cool outdoor air into the room.  If the temperature of the room happens to be lower than the set point, the steam or water valve, or sometimes the face and bypass dampers will index open so that the discharge air is warm, so as to bring the room temperature up to the temperature of the thermostat set point.

Generally, the thermostat is a pneumatic or ddc type, and the controls within the Uni-vent modulate to maintain space temperature control.  This way, there are not cycles of on/off, or hot/cold, rather continuously modulation of discharge temperature to maintain a constant room temp regardless of what the weather is.

F&T steam traps

@ April 21, 2012 11:21 PM in F&T traps on commercial buildings.

An F&T trap in a commercial situation is similar in many ways to a residential application.  However, there are also differences, sometimes.
Of course, the basic of operation are that the T or thermostatic part of the trap will remain open until it is closed by the temperature of steam being present.  This will allow air in the main to be vented out when steam is trying to travel into the main upon boiler start up.  This operation requires that there are no dips in the discharge piping and that air can freely flow.  The piping usually is connected to a condensate return pump, which has a tank that is vented to the atmosphere.  When the tank is nearly full the pump will come on and pump the water back to the boiler system, usually in commercial setups, to a boiler feed tank.  The other part of the F&T trap is the float.  When the trap is empty, the float is down and the port is closed.  When the trap begins to fill with condensate, the float raises and causes the port to be opend, thus allowing the condensate to discharge. 

F&T traps work best when they are set up to discharge by gravity to a condensate receiver.  However, occaisionally you may find them installed such that the condensate line is above the trap.  In these cases, it will require pressure present in the steam main to push the condensate through the trap and discharge upward to the condensate line.  When traps are piped in this manner, they are usually on systems that are set up to maintain steam pressure continuously.  When the boiler is down for seasonal shutdown or service, and then is started back up, this type of set up will cause a fair amount of water hammer until the steam pressure is established and maintained, at which time the hammering will cease and operation will be normal.

I Agree that they should

@ April 19, 2012 3:17 PM in Boiler put in wrong 3 years ago - Do they owe me?

Paul, I agree with you completely that they should make it right.  Hopefully they will.  Can the owner make them if they refuse?  Maybe.
Hopefully it will have a happy ending!

As usual, it all depends.....

@ April 19, 2012 10:36 AM in Boiler put in wrong 3 years ago - Do they owe me?

While I agree with everything that has been said in previous posts, I come at this from a little different perspective.  As a manager of an institutional facility, we frequently had building addition and remodeling projects.  All but the smallest projects were contracted work that was designed by and architect and/or engineer.  Plans and specifications were issued, bids taken, and contracts signed.  When the project was completed and signed off by all parties, the warranty period started.  This was almost always for a period of one year.  The warranty covered such things as defects, equipment failure, minor issues that may not have been caught in a punch list.  For these types of things, once the warranty period is over, it's the owners baby. 

However, the contractor and subcontractor were obliged to build the project according the the plans and specifications.  Issues that arise, where the plans and specifications were not followed, and for which there was no change order allowing the deviation, or shop drawings approved by the architect or engineer, the contractor is on the hook theoretically forever.

So, in this case, I think it comes down to whether there was a contract, and if there was, what the language said.  I have certainly learned from this message board, that the phrase, "to be installed according to the manufacturers minimum recommendations"  should be on every contract for a boiler installation.  Anything that is not according to the minimum recommendations should be specifically spelled out as exceeding the minimum recommendations, and exactly how and why the variation is being done.

In this case, I think the owner has a valid case in a court of law because the manufacturer's installation instructions say very clearly what the pipe size must be.  But unless language is in the contract stating that the manufactures recommendations will be followed, you may have a difficult time because the installer may be able to produce list of other installations as examples to illustrate that it doesn't make any difference and he may be able to establish that he is a highly competent and knowledgeable professional.  The installer will also be able to say that the system seemed to be working fine.  In court, it will come down to who presents the strongest case.

If it were my boiler, I would attempt to get the original installer to make it right.  I would even agree to pay a partial amount.  However, if the contractor will only do the work time and materials, with the billing at the full hourly rate, I would hire someone else who is competent, and never use the original contractor again.  I suspect that the contractor will value your business and try to work with you on this.  

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

A thing of beauty!

@ April 16, 2012 11:03 AM in Before & after

Excellent installation all the way around.  Sounds like you have addressed all of the issues that caused the previous problems.

One additional thought, even though you have significantly reduced the operating pressure, you may find that 5 psi works just as well as 8 psi.  Most commercial/institutional heating systems where steam pressure is maintained and space control is via pneumatic thermostats and valves, are designed to operate at 5 psi.  Overiding issues that might require a higher pressure might be situations where drip leg traps do not drain by gravity and have an unusual amount of lift and therefor require more than 5 psi to push the condensate up to the return, but this would be a LOT of lift!   The second situation is if you have an air handler that has a fresh air mix, or 100% outside air.  In this case, it all depends on the design of the coil and the supply valve as to what pressure is require to keep it property heated an therefor avoid chance of freeze damage.

If all of the heat is actaully fin tube, and you have no unusual condensate lift situations, then 5 psi is more than enough and you will find that the system will work better and the individual temp controls will be able to maintain a more even space temp when operating at lower pressures.

Your Math is Wrong

@ April 5, 2012 12:04 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

It looks like an American Radiator, Rococo pattern radiator.  I can't tell if your radiator is a 3 column for a 4 column type.  Look at the end section and see how many vertical tubes there are.  Then, it looks like in your scan of figuring, that the ht is 17.5".  Actually, it is probably 18".  The 3 column radiator that is 18" tall has 2.25 sq ft / section.  The 4 column model has 3 sq ft/section.  Decide which one you have.  Then multiply the number of sections by the sq ft / section and it will give you the total sq ft.  24 sections x 2.25 sq ft/section gives you 54 sq ft.   For the 4 column type, it would be 24 x 3 = 72 sq ft.    For clarification, the term, sq ft of steam radiation is the same thing as EDR.  Sometimes the terms are intermixed and become confusing. 
Clarification of radiator terminolgy.  This is a column type radiator. There are also large tube and small tube types as well, and a few others too.
The pieces of cast iron that are all joined together are called sections.  Each fin sticking up represents a section.  Even through the paint you can probably see the crack where the pieces are joined.  Column radiators are sized by how tall they are and how many columns in each section.  There can be as few as 1 column and as many as 4 columns in this model. 

Hope this helps.

How High the Header?

@ April 5, 2012 9:13 AM in How High The Header?

Ever since this thread was first posted, it keeps me thinking of a musical track by Les Paul and Mary Ford, "How High The Moon."  Les Paul of course, the inventor of the solid body electric guitar, multi-track recording, overdubbing, and many more.  If he had been able to figure out how to make a steam guitar, I'm sure he would have.
I know this is the wrong forum, but I thought there might be one or two of you that would enjoy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZFKeyGpgK0 

I Stand Corrected

@ April 4, 2012 9:41 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

It has been a while since I saw the video clips, but from those, I thought they looked like Armstrong inverted buckets.  Sorry!
In words of the great Gilda Radner, "NEVER MIND"    ;-)

Thanks, Dave B

We're Not Just a Bunch of Idiots....

@ April 4, 2012 5:32 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

Once in a while, we know what we're talking about.  In fact, most of the time!  The hell of it is, we actually do this work for free!  Perhaps if we charged, we'd be more highly regarded?

There is an old saying, "That which comes easy is little valued."

tekmar

@ April 4, 2012 5:15 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

Here is a link to the tekmar control at pex supply. http://www.pexsupply.com/Tekmar-279-Steam-Control-One-Stage-7959000-p    This is pretty much all you need plus 1 or 2 indoor sensors.  They are listed at  http://www.pexsupply.com/Tekmar-076-Indoor-Sensor-G-Enclosure-4169000-p  
This will give you a pretty good idea of the wholesale cost of the unit.

Beauty Pagent?

@ April 4, 2012 5:05 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

Uh... well OK.  On the outside chance that you enter a beauty pagent... and win! .......  Having a hard time picturing....
You should ask for world peace.  In a peaceful state of mind, hardened hearts are softened, closed minds are opened, and reason prevails.   If not reason, then perhaps, just because it might seem like the nice thing to do, to let you have your way, since you seem so determined.   

Probably a Series 1

@ April 4, 2012 4:59 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

The link to the manual is for a series 2 boiler.  You most likely have a model 88, series 1.   The series 1 was blue.  The Series 2 is tan.  Here is a link to the series 1 manual http://weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/88-series-1-boiler/88boilermanual.pdf 
Calculations for steam boiler sizing is on EDR or connected radiation, not the sq ft of floor space.  EDR = sq ft of radiation.   A common column type cast iron radiator with 3 columns that is 38" tall has 5 sq ft per section.  

On Inverted Bucket Traps and F&T Traps

@ April 4, 2012 4:18 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

The body of this post was deleted because I was wrong.   Sorry Hoyte.  Thanks Boiler Pro.

Some thoughts on the probems

@ April 4, 2012 3:54 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

It occured to me that the strangest aspect about all of this is the following.  You have a heating system that is performing very poorly.  Everybody in the building agrees on that point.  Yet, they appear to be totally committed to the contractor that created the problems in the first place and refuse to listen to any ideas other than his.  Yet... if I understand correctly, he is the contractor that probably installed the boiler, and the rest of the expensive components, many of which aren't even needed, and are creating the problem.  Perhpas the question should be, Do we like our heating system the way it is?   If the anwer is no, then, "Let's call the person who made it this way and see if he can make it even worse?"

It Boggles my mind, and I had swore that I would not spend any more of my time on this thread, but here I am!  I feel bad for everyone in the building, included the leadership committed to the unknowledgeable contractor.  I also feel a little sorry for the contractor, "he doesn't know what he doesn't know".  Ugh!

Another source

@ April 4, 2012 12:11 PM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

Here is another source of drawings of steam systems.  Hoffman Speciality has been around forever and their advice is considered almost gospel.  http://completewatersystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/7250.pdf 
As for Tekmar, I am using one in a building with 8,000 sq ft and 7 units.  It works GREAT!  Cost was very affordable.  I installed with 2 indoor sensors, 1 outdoor, and 1 end of main sensor.

I do not have experience with the RD models, but my understanding is that they are essentially a system of sensors and control that essentially works like a thermostat.  The outdoor sensor is for warm weather shutdown.   The Tekmar does not work on that principle, but rather on the principle that a certain amount of heat is needed each hour based on the outdoor temperature.  The indoor sensors provide feedback to fine tune the running time.  The boiler never runs to satisfy the indoor sensor, which usually results in temperature fluctuations.  The result is a very even temperature within the spaces.  I have had my unit for 4 years and am very happy with its performance.

Perfect explanation

@ March 30, 2012 8:05 AM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

Rod, as usual, your graphics and verbal explanation illustrate the issue perfectly, and so easy to understand.
I predict that this will help the folks in the condo understand.  As for the contractor that has been doing the erroneous work, I would predict that he will reject it in favor of his long held misunderstandings of how a steam system is supposed to work.  It is not easy for one to give up old beliefs and even more difficult to accept that one is wrong.

A Waste of a Good Gorton

@ March 29, 2012 8:27 AM in Has our system been analyzed correctly?

The question is not whether the Gorton will work,(of course it will) but rather does it have any practical function in your particular system.

As has been stated before, by just about every pro that participates on this forum, and a whole bunch of the rest of us that have more than a little experience in the world of steam heat.   The vents in the present location have no function.  They neither improve nor diminish the proper operation of your steam plant.  A iron plug screwed into the return main in place of the vent would work just fine too.  You steam contractor says we don't understand the system, but he is mistaken.   And so, your condo association has voted on the correction.  I wonder if they would vote that it is OK to use 14 gauge wire on a 20 Amp circuit too?  I am at a loss, don't know how to help.

Back to the venting issue.  Your mains all loop back and go through steam traps on their way to the boiler feed tank.  All air in the mains has to pass through the steam traps and when steam gets to the traps, they close.  Air moving downstream of the traps will freely flow to the boiler feed tank because it is vented to the atmosphere.  Yes, I know you said that it was not, but I can see the openings in the PVC fitting where there is an air break fitting where the make-up water is connected.   So... the new vents provide more opening for venting.  Will it make a difference?  No.  Is there a danger of steam getting to the vent location, so that a closing vent is necessary?  Not as long as the trap is functioning correctly.  And, if a trap does let steam pass, enough so that the steam vent will close, it will pass on down to the boiler feed tank and start blowing out of the air break.  Again, the new vents serve no purpose whatsoever.  On the other hand, if there was no feed water tank present, and there was no other atmospheric opening in the return piping, then yes, the vents would be critical.  The system would not work without the vents.  But, this is not the case.  There IS a feed-water tank.  It IS open to the atmosphere. 

I wonder how long the condo association will vote to spend money that does nothing to improve the system.  I wonder how much money they will waste.  
Have you ever seen the movie, Idiocracy?  The scary thing is that we seem to be living in a world where stupid not only prevails, but often is the popular choice.

maybe...

@ March 19, 2012 3:52 PM in Tragic End to a Boiler

The problem appears to be that it started leaking.

Boiler risers

@ March 16, 2012 9:11 AM in How High The Header?

I am sure that Steamhead was referring to the boiler risers in his post, as he refers to manufacturer recommendations regarding boiler risers.  There are no specific recommendations for the height of risers between a header and the steam mains.

And, I second Rod's comments on your drawings!  Fantastic!