Security Seal Facebook Twitter GooglePlus Pinterest Newsletter Sign-up
The Wall
steamfitter

steamfitter

Joined on July 1, 2010

Last Post on August 24, 2014

Contact User

Recent Posts

1 2 »

HW Radiant conversion

@ August 24, 2014 10:04 PM in HW Radiant conversion

Copied from the main wall:
(I did a rough heat loss calculation with an app from Slantfin and found the boiler to be within range, but I have to confirm a lot of the figures I used. What is the outside design temp.in this area?)
He may want to do some work to get by this heating season and then possibly redo the system next year. I recommended going with a mod-con boiler and primary-secondary piping. Thoughts?


HW Radiant conversion
I am helping a friend, who lives in Jackson, N.J. with his home hw
heating system. He has many issues with a radiant hw system that was
originally a two-pipe direct return baseboard heating system. He may be
interested in complete replacement of the boiler and all near boiler
piping. Is there a reputable contractor in the Jackson, N.J. area that
may be recommended for estimate?



I have recommended some changes in the boiler piping and am looking into
doing a heat loss calculation. I have some info on the house, and I
know I need more, but I wanted to get a rough idea on the boiler size
because it seems small for the home.



The house has two heated levels and an unheated basement. The first
floor is approx. 1600 sq. ft. and is completely radiant in one zone with
10 circuits. The second floor is larger (overhang) and has one zone
with 3 circuits covering 790 sq. ft. and another with 4 circuits
covering 1088 sq. ft. It has an 8'-0" ceiling heights throughout, with
the exception on a 16'-0" x 20'-0" family room that has a vaulted
ceiling with 2 skylights. There are a relatively normal amount and size
of windows and the home is well insulated. I realize I need more
specific information, and I don't have design temp. of the system, but
the Weil McLain HE II Boiler has a DOE Htg. Cap. of 82,000 Btu/hr and a
Water Mbh of 71. I can't get info as to the actual total lengths of the
radiant circuits or the spread of the loops on the tubing.



He has the diaphragm tank on its side and the copper mains and headers
are 1" until they reach the boiler room and then they're reduced to
3/4". They just cut into the existing lines where the old zone valves
were and left the circulators on the returns. Then they added a 1" zone
with a circulator on the supply. So one circulator is pumping away and
the other two are pumping to the PONPC.



He apparently has done some of the work with his friends and I recommended the following:



1. Remove the two circulators from the return and replace them on the supply.

2. Add flow control valves and after all three circulators on the system side.

3. Check the charge on the diaphragm tank (12 psi) and re-pipe it so it is facing down.Maybe get a Spirotherm air separator.

4. Pipe supply and return headers to full 1 1/4" copper and re-pipe mains to full 1".

5. Add appropriate isolation and drain valves to facilitate draining and purging.

6. Add gauge tee and gauge to check pressure on discharge side if at
least one zone and double check operation of boiler gauge/thermometer.



There are two Taco pumps (1/25 hp)- can't make out the model #

and one Grundfos UPS-20-42 pump (3 speed). Some photos are attached.



I appreciate any thoughts and help!!!

Thank you kindly!


















Reply

HW Radiant conversion

@ August 24, 2014 4:47 PM in HW Radiant conversion

I am helping a friend, who lives in Jackson, N.J. with his home hw heating system. He has many issues with a radiant hw system that was originally a two-pipe direct return baseboard heating system. He may be interested in complete replacement of the boiler and all near boiler piping. Is there a reputable contractor in the Jackson, N.J. area that may be recommended for estimate?

I have recommended some changes in the boiler piping and am looking into doing a heat loss calculation. I have some info on the house, and I know I need more, but I wanted to get a rough idea on the boiler size because it seems small for the home.

The house has two heated levels and an unheated basement. The first floor is approx. 1600 sq. ft. and is completely radiant in one zone with 10 circuits. The second floor is larger (overhang) and has one zone with 3 circuits covering 790 sq. ft. and another with 4 circuits covering 1088 sq. ft. It has an 8'-0" ceiling heights throughout, with the exception on a 16'-0" x 20'-0" family room that has a vaulted ceiling with 2 skylights. There are a relatively normal amount and size of windows and the home is well insulated. I realize I need more specific information, and I don't have design temp. of the system, but the Weil McLain HE II Boiler has a DOE Htg. Cap. of 82,000 Btu/hr and a Water Mbh of 71. I can't get info as to the actual total lengths of the radiant circuits or the spread of the loops on the tubing.

He has the diaphragm tank on its side and the copper mains and headers are 1" until they reach the boiler room and then they're reduced to 3/4". They just cut into the existing lines where the old zone valves were and left the circulators on the returns. Then they added a 1" zone with a circulator on the supply. So one circulator is pumping away and the other two are pumping to the PONPC.

He apparently has done some of the work with his friends and I recommended the following:

1. Remove the two circulators from the return and replace them on the supply.
2. Add flow control valves and after all three circulators on the system side.
3. Check the charge on the diaphragm tank (12 psi) and re-pipe it so it is facing down.Maybe get a Spirotherm air separator.
4. Pipe supply and return headers to full 1 1/4" copper and re-pipe mains to full 1".
5. Add appropriate isolation and drain valves to facilitate draining and purging.
6. Add gauge tee and gauge to check pressure on discharge side if at least one zone and double check operation of boiler gauge/thermometer.

There are two Taco pumps (1/25 hp)- can't make out the model #
and one Grundfos UPS-20-42 pump (3 speed). Some photos are attached.

I appreciate any thoughts and help!!!
Thank you kindly!

what is TR?

@ March 8, 2014 12:10 PM in furnace problem

Thanks for your help! What is TR? Is that temp. range?
What is the negative effect of raising the high limit, as the tech did from 205 to 225 degrees? Can the furnace be damaged? I am considering calling the company to have the limit replaced with a new limit that is 205 degrees. Do you think it can shorten the lifespan of the furnace?
Thanks again!

furnace problem

@ March 3, 2014 12:32 PM in furnace problem

I have a Nordyne furnace and the service tech recently replaced a limit switch set at 225 degrees ( the old one was set at 205 degrees). I have a variable speed fan motor on a 72,00 btu furnace and the cfm setting was on 1050. The tech said he had raised that to the next level (which I believe was 1200 cfm). After several weeks I found the house to be quite dry and uncomfortable. I tinkered with the switches below and attempted to return it back to its original setting but I mistakenly set it higher (1500 cfm).

After more discomfort I went down and realized what I had done and reset it at the original 1050 cfm. I also changed the air filter which was understandably pretty dirty.

Now I'm not sure if it's just me or something is not right. Everything seems to be working but the fan speed sounds noisier and the dry and discomfort remains. Is it possible that something needs to be reset? I have turned the burner switch on and off, as well as the thermostat. With the weather changing so much ( dramatic rise and fall of outdoor temps recently) it's hard to judge if the forced air heat is working as it was in the past.
I'm trying to avoid another charge/call to the furnace contractor.
Thanks for any suggestions!

great explanation!

@ October 28, 2013 8:21 PM in a question on EDR

Thank you for clarifying that for me. That explanation clearly brings to light how powerful the thermal energy of steam is.

latent heat

@ October 27, 2013 8:23 PM in a question on EDR

That's the thing that's haunting me. We know that it takes 180 btus to get a pound of water from 32 degrees F to 212 degrees F and it takes 970 btus for that same amount of water to become steam.
If 1 edr is equal to 240 btus for steam does it mean when it's condensing and releasing all of its heat energy? Is there a different amount of btus for water @ 212 degrees F?
Not looking to do anything with this in regards to a hw or steam system, just trying to clarify the science.

a question on EDR

@ October 26, 2013 11:15 AM in a question on EDR

As I understand it 1 EDR is the equivalent of 240 BTU's per square ft. of radiation when there is 215 degrees F of steam and 70 degrees of air outside the rad.
With hot water radiation you should get about 170 BTU's per sq. ft. when the water temp. is 180 degrees.
The question I have is related  to  the latent heat of vaporization. If you have 215 degrees of water ( pressurized, of course) in a radiator, how many BTU's would be released per sq. ft. of radiation?
Would it be the same 240? Shouldn't be less due to the fact that you are not releasing latent heat? If so, how many BTU's per EDR?
Looking to clarify the whole EDR thing at that boiling point temperature regardless of pressure, if that makes any sense.

vaporstat

@ October 20, 2013 7:41 PM in firing rate of he boiler?

Thanks NBC!,
When you mention vaporstat are you refering to a vapor system only? Will other steam boilers use a pressuretrol to control the firing rate? How about HW boilers, are they controlled by an aquastat and thermostat?

firing rate of he boiler?

@ October 19, 2013 10:13 AM in firing rate of he boiler?

Looking over old notes from a seminar and trying to answer the questions regarding boiler firing rates, I'm struggling to get things clear in my head.
When dealing with hw boilers and steam boilers, what device or devices control the firing rate? Is it the thermostat, a timer or an outdoor reset control? Is it a combination of different controls? Are there choices according to the contractor or engineer?
Trying to answer the questions of over-firing and under-firing. And its connection to the common problem of short-cycling. As I look through my old dead men's school workbook the troubleshooting answer to certain issues says: the burner isn't firing to the connected load. I think I know what that means, but how does one go about fixing that problem. Is it just a control problem if the boiler is sized correctly?

cleaning steam boiler water

@ October 12, 2013 2:05 PM in Steam Boiler Cleaner

I don't have experience cleaning boiler water but I thought I might mention two items from Holohan's books. One is that a cleaner called MEX ( a newer, safer cleaner similar to TSP, tri-sodium phosphate) has had claims of doing a fine job at cleaning water in a steam boiler. The other is that skimming and other methods requires patience and persistence that most contractors lack because, after all, time is money. A good cleaning job, in regards to skimming may take an entire day.

rads too high

@ October 12, 2013 1:11 PM in Help With Radiators

There are fittings called " extension couplings" that may give you the height that you need. You would have to very carefully remove the radiator valves and traps and add these couplings( which are nothing but a coupling that is male X female as opposed to the standard female X female couplings) before re-installing the valvea and traps.
It is important to consider the branch piping below and access to them in case a problem should occur and re-piping has to be done.
I would be careful in cutting rad legs as cast iron can break and you may end up replacing a radiator. If ext. couplings don't give you the right fit I would consider standard couplings with close nipples and shimming up the radiator to the new height.
Hope this helps!

boiler firing rates

@ October 7, 2013 9:50 PM in boiler firing rates

What determines the firing rate of a boiler? Is it by design of the system? Is it something that's pre-determined by the boiler manufacturer? or is it strictly determined by controls like thermostats, aquastats and outdoor reset controls?

old steam system

@ October 6, 2013 6:29 PM in consultation on old steam system eastern connecticut area

Is the main steam vent working properly?
A counterflow system has limitations on how long the main can be run due to the fact that you need pitch back to the boiler.( 1" per 20 ft.). Sounds like it may be too long a run. Did the radiators work properly before? If there is a condensate return at the end of the main then the pitch should go towards it and that would make it a parallel system.
In either case, I would check the main air vent. Is the main getting hot all the way through? If it is then check the radiator vents as well as the rads pitch back to the rad valves.

controls?

@ October 4, 2013 6:22 PM in tankless coil in the winter

I'm guessing the mixing valve is electric. What type of controls? Does the control get wired to an aquastat that is seperate from the aquastat that controls the boiler for hw heating?
Are there mixing valves that are non-electric?

firetube vs. watertube boilers

@ October 3, 2013 10:07 PM in firetube vs. watertube boilers

Is it easier to maintain a firetube boiler as opposed to a watertube boiler?
Which one requires more off-season maintenance?

tankless coil in the winter

@ October 1, 2013 9:59 PM in tankless coil in the winter

How does a tankless coil operate in the heating season? While a hot water boiler is heating at, let's say 180 degrees, what prevents the domestic hot water from overheating?
Are there different scenarios depending on storage tanks?

pumps

@ July 22, 2013 8:08 PM in circulators/pumps

Thanks!

pumps

@ July 22, 2013 8:07 PM in circulators/pumps

Thanks for the info. very helpful!
I'm glad you mentioned velocity, because i'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole velocity thing. feet per second, milinches, gpm.
If gpm represents flow rate and feet per second represents velocity, what is their relationship?
If larger pipe gives you slower velocity, how do you maintain a set gpm on a given pump/circulator? If the water is moving slower wouldn't it circulate less gallons per minute?
Studying pumps and hw systems, but still getting hung up on a few items.
I appreciate your help!

easier to push

@ July 22, 2013 7:54 PM in circulators/pumps

Thank you kindly. I can understand the reason for larger inlets better as you explain the fact that there is less resistance due to the larger outlet. "Easier to push than pull," is a great way to think about the function as well as remembering the concept. Thanks again!

Bank manipulation

@ July 21, 2013 8:15 PM in Copper prices affected by Bank manipulation of Markets

I read that article this morning and was amazed what the banks and large finacial firms like goldman sacks were able to do with the storage of aluminum.
This is another loophole in financial laws that needs to be regulated. The big banking and finance industry strikes again, making more money in a struggling economy as the businesses, their workers and customers of these metals pay unnecessary price increases.
What a shame!

pumps/circulators CORRECTION

@ July 21, 2013 8:03 PM in circulators/pumps

Sorry guys- got that last post backwards. As you know the outlets are smaller than the inlets.
Looking for an explanation of the pumps with same size inlet and outlet. How do they work?
Thanks!

circulators/pumps

@ July 21, 2013 8:00 PM in circulators/pumps

The literature and study materials regarding centrifugal pumps state that the inlet is usually smaller than the outlet. The pump/circulator causes a pressure differential and provides flow in the piping.
How does the circulation work on pumps that have the same size inlet and outlet?
If i'm not mistaken I believe there are small circulators as well as pretty large ones with inlets and outlets of the same size. Is the inside of the pump different than the other pumps with different size outlets?
1 2 »