Joined on September 1, 2010
Last Post on December 12, 2013
@ December 12, 2013 7:50 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingWhat is your incoming water pressure? Did they put a gauge on it or is this just more of their wild guessing?
@ December 12, 2013 7:31 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingThat someone in HTP's engineering told them that.
If your incoming water pressure is so high, why don't they install a Pressure Reducing Valve? No one with any real knowledge of hydronics would say to install a larger boiler and indirect when something as simple as installing a PRV would solve the problem.
@ December 12, 2013 6:34 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingIt makes no sense to go to a 105k boiler. You'll only get another 3/4 gpm domestic and the boiler will be over-sized for space heating - not a good thing.
It seems like you got someone's attention that's wants to make it right which good, but putting all new equipment in without addressing what's really wrong is just like getting a larger gun but not knowing where to aim it.
The company and you would be much better off just listening to the professional advice given here than their shotgun approach to this.
The reverse indirect may be higher capacity, but if the train carrying the btu's ( 007 and piping) can't get to the depot any faster than before, it makes no difference how much bigger the new depot is.
I would suggest that you request of them to call HTP's engineering department and let them determine what needs to be done rather than trying to fix it with the "Bigger is better" approach.
Kinda strange isn't it: they're willing to spend thousands of $$ on bigger equipment rather than a few hundred on a circ and correct piping? What did Ben Franklin say? "Penny wise, but pound foolish."
@ December 12, 2013 12:51 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingUsing the info that you provided tells me that your boiler can cover a heat loss of up to 34 btu's per square foot, not including the 700 sf. addition. If we add that, the boiler will handle a heat loss of 27 btu's per sf.
An average house with your description would probably need 25-30 btu's per sf. Disclaimer: That's not scientific, just a rough estimate from someone who's been doing heat loss calculations for about 35 years and knows where the numbers typically fall. A detailed heat loss calculation is the only way to know for sure.
Now, what that means is that your boiler is sized correctly even with the addition included. Going with a 105k btu would have been too much.
Also, jumping up to the 105k would only add another 3/4 gpm output to what you have now for domestic.
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but the facts remain the same and, therefore, there's no need to look elsewhere: the three issues that need to be addressed are:
1. Size the circulator properly. The 007 can only move about 2 gpm based on the head loss info provided; the 008 will give you 7.3 gpm - that's over 3 1/2 times as much. If someone can see the difference in that, I can't help them. You need to stop letting them simply declare that the 007 is right because they say so and make them run the numbers scientifically.
2. Pipe the indirect properly. It does make a difference that supply and return are reversed as this will cause the coil not to have the maximum heat transfer it's rated for. It won't see the maximum temperature difference (delta T) all the way across the coil the way it is now. The greater the delta T, the greater the heat transfer.
3. Slow down the fill rate of your faucets. Either throttle the valves or install energy saver faucets. If you keep letting 5+ gpm out of the faucets, your gonna run out of hot in half the time that you would at 2.5 gpm. Just start filling the tub earlier at a slower rate. The same goes for the sink. An old one is very capable of dumping 5 gpm. There's no need for that: slow it down.
One additional thing will help that also been mentioned: set the aquastat on the indirect to at least 140-150* and set the mixing valve to 120* going to the faucets. This, in effect, increases the size of the indirect by storing more heat energy and will also insure that any Legionella is killed.
@ December 12, 2013 10:31 AM in Hot water baseboard heatingHow many square feet is your house? What's the age? If it's old, have there been upgrades to the insulation, windows, etc? Would you consider it to be leaky, average or tight?
@ December 11, 2013 10:28 PM in 3 Boiler Caravan - 6" Header - Kings Park, NYNow that's old school.
@ December 11, 2013 10:25 PM in Recommendations for new flue gas analyzer- URGENT!I have an E Instruments that I've been happy with for about 4 years. Also a Bacharach, I like the E a little more.
@ December 11, 2013 10:19 PM in outdoor boilerProbably be better with a 2"" header. 1 1/2" carries about 22 gpm, @ 4 FPS. You want it large enough at full flow not to have any interference between zones.
@ December 11, 2013 7:47 PM in outdoor boilerYou might try the moose antler manifold. The heat exchanger would replace the boiler in the diagram. You could also add another set of closely spaced tees for connection of a boiler. Put them in the manifold downstream of the HX Tees. That way whatever amount of heat that the HX provides would be pumped into the boiler when its circ is energized from a heat call. If the water entering the boiler is hot enough, then it won't fire.
Size the manifold to keep the velocity in it near 2 fps. to prevent hydraulic interference. You can also use individual zone circ's in lieu of the manifold circ and zone valves which are shown.
@ December 11, 2013 8:57 AM in Hot water baseboard heatingThat's the technical term used to refer to the RESISTANCE to flow that a circulator must overcome.
There are different types of "head" depending upon the type of system - open or closed.
In an OPEN system, such as a potable water faucet 3 stories up, the pump must overcome the STATIC head of lifting the water upward against the force of gravity. For every psi ( pound per square inch) that the pump supplies, the water will be lifted 2.31feet. This is where the term feet of head comes from. However, in an open loop, the pump also has to overcome whatever resistance the piping offers. This is called FRICTION head aka HYDRAULIC RESISTANCE. Both of these factors must added together to calculate the TOTAL or DYNAMIC head. STATIC head + FRICTION head = TOTAL or DYNAMIC head.
In a CLOSED loop, like your hydronic system, there is no STATIC head to overcome since what goes up is canceled out by what comes down. It's like a Ferris wheel. Think of forming a clear house into a U shape that's 5 feet high on both sides. Now, pour water into one side and it will settle at an equal height on the other side. If you have 4 feet of water on one side, you'll have 4 feet on the other. The static head is the same on both sides. This is the way it is in your hydronic system. The pump sees no STATIC head. It does however see the FRICTION head of the system which is the resistance to flow that everything in the piping circuit produces. The height of the piping has nothing to do with this. The more flow ( gpm) that's forced through the piping, the higher that the FRICTION head will be. In a CLOSED loop system, there is only FRICTION head. Therefore, the FRICTION head is equal to the DYNAMIC or TOTAL head.
When you look at a pump performance curve chart, you'll notice that it has feet of head on the left side ascending vertically and gpm on the bottom progressing horizontally. Through system design calculations, we determine how many feet of head the piping circuit has and how many gpm we need. We then go to the chart and determine which pump will best match our needs.
It has nothing to do with how many floors of a structure are built above our circuit or our own little notion that we've always done it like this. It's all scientific facts.
@ December 10, 2013 6:29 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingI can't say how much difference changing the piping will make. It's obviously wrong and why would HTP label it if it didn't matter which way they went?
Your contractor doesn't understand basic hydronics or heat transfer. The supply is obviously the hotter line. It should meet the hotter water in the tank which is closer to the top. The return is the cooler line. It should meet the cooler water at the bottom of the tank.
Changing the pump should make the greatest difference since a properly sized pump will transfer heat from the boiler to the indirect more quickly.
As far as him not believing the circ is wrong, I've already said: "You can't fix stupid".
@ December 10, 2013 3:22 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingThough requesting a rep on site is a good idea which I and others have suggested, be aware of on caveat: the contractor is his customer, not you.
If he sees something wrong, he can talk to the contractor privately and ask him to correct it, but he's not going to rebuke him in front of you or take your side. Not if he's ethical. And, if he's a Burnham rep, he may or may not say anything about the proper installation of an HTP product.
The inspector, on the other hand, has legal authority to enforce the code. To what degree your state's code addresses proper design and selection of system components like the circ in question, I do not know. Also, how savvy the inspector is will be a factor.
You don't have to know anything technical. All you have to do is insist that your system is not performing properly and let the rep and inspector know that the contractor admitted there are errors in the installation but refused to correct them.
Make sure you have the installation manuals for both products so the inspector can see what the manufacturer calls for. Particularly, the HTP manual and have the pertinent pages marked.
I will add one other point, though you might be careful about mentioning it to the inspector: the pump curves from Taco clearly indicate that the 008 is the correct choice, not the 010. But apparently the HTP manual calls for the 010. I don't know why they do this because the 008 is a medium "head" pump and the 010 is a low "head" pump. The 010 can only overcome 8 ft. of head (resistance to flow) @ 1 gpm. The 008 can give you 7.3 gpm @ 11.1 ft. of head. Though the indirect may be listed to take an 015, that would assume a larger boiler than yours is connected. It makes no sense to install a pump that will not match the capacity of the boiler AND the flow requirements of the indirect. The 008 wil do this perfectly, the 007 falls way short @ 2 gpm. The height of the house has absolutely no bearing upon this.
The inspector may or may not understand this, the rep should.
Let me add one other thing: when we use the term "rep" we are referring to a factory rep that has extensive technical knowledge of Burnham's products and hydronics, not his local sales rep, though he may be knowledgeable.
You may also want to contact Nation Grid and make your case to them. The threat of being removed from their approved contractor list may motivate this one to correct your system.
Also, have you tried talking to the owner or manager of this company? Many times, they may be unaware or mis-informed about what's going on. Getting them there on site may get your problem resolved. I'd try that before going to outside authorities.
@ December 10, 2013 10:40 AM in Keeping circulators always on in unattended home to prevent freeze damageHow about just using antifreeze? It would be a lot cheaper than a broken pipe. You would loose a little capacity, but most hydronic systems are over-sized.
Just make sure it's hydronic antifreeze, not automotive. If you have an aluminum boiler, that requires a special type.
@ December 10, 2013 10:19 AM in T.C. Joy CompanyI guess we were typing about the same time. :)
@ December 10, 2013 10:17 AM in T.C. Joy CompanyThose look very similar to the "Italian Flue" rads on page 59 of your EDR book which are rated at 7 sq. ft. per 38" section. Would that rating be close enough?
@ December 10, 2013 9:04 AM in Keeping circulators always on in unattended home to prevent freeze damageThe Taco SR 504EXP is capable of having three different cards added to its expansion ports: that's what the "EXP" stands for. Get the pump exercise card and adjust it to bring on the circ's as needed. It just plugs into the port.
@ December 10, 2013 12:13 AM in Copper Press FittingsMy shop is small, too. I had a large one 20+ years ago and had nothing but large headaches to go with it. I know what you're talking about there. Now, it's just me and my son plus a couple of part timers.
My thinking is a little opposite from yours in regard to my help. They are all older and very well experienced. In fact, it was the two of them that finally persuaded me to get the ProPress. That, plus a large solar job on a 12/12 roof where Buderus wanted all the joints silfossed which would have been impossible. Viega offers high temp O rings that are rated for solar and we were able to use them instead of silfossing the joints. That sold me on it and I'm very happy with it.
As far as the cost of the tool: I just charge for it like I would for solder, torch and paste (STP). When you figure up the cost of those per job over, say, 5 years, they'll probably be more than the ProPress.
@ December 9, 2013 11:47 PM in Runtal and Raditors piped togetherHow about using a towel warmer? I don't know if anyone makes one that's not steel, but you'll definitely get rust from water on the exterior of the Runtal; probably at the mounting hardware. I've seen ones that a customer made himself from copper tubing. They looked good after they were painted.
As far as flow: it's gonna be reduced. There's very little head in the old pipes as they were sized for gravity flow. When the water flow enters the 3/8 lines, it's gonna see a lot more resistance and slow down.
It's a shame that the customer wouldn't go for a radiant floor mat; that would have been the best option.
@ December 9, 2013 9:42 PM in Runtal and Raditors piped togetherIs the output of the Runtal the same as the cast iron rad that's being removed? If it's about the same width, I seriously doubt that the Runtal would have more than 1/3rd the capacity of the CI.
Why is the CI being removed? If it's bad, why not get another CI rad with about the same output?
@ December 9, 2013 7:22 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingThis guy is living proof of that.