Joined on September 13, 2010
Last Post on March 12, 2014
@ March 12, 2014 7:58 AM in Carlin Gas Conversion or new oil tank?Probably because the stack temperatures keep climbing. 482 degrees F? Was it steaming?
One reason you always get better numbers with a hot water boiler. Set the high limit to 160 degrees and you can immediately have a potential 40 degree drop in stack temperature.
IMO, that boiler will never run and read all that well because of all the leaking going on. If it was a SGO, it would be as tight as a tick. New or old.
Most old 66/68 boilers I have cleaned had serious air leaks on the top cleanout plates. I used to fix that with a piece of a Lynn wet blanket. They usually leaked around the front burner plate, making the red boiler rating plate unreadable. Then, there's that air adjustment on the left below the burner. I guess you were supposed to open it if the burner rumbled and you couldn't make it go away. I've found them in all types of positions. Open or closed. Where ever I found them, I always left them. I wasn't taking the risk that something might go wrong and I would have to go back.
I had a few rumblers. The rumble always went away when I put in a EZ-1.
@ March 11, 2014 11:06 PM in Rinnai RH180 or 100 Gallon Atmospheric?What they spent on the DHW you installed is chump change compared to what they could have paid for a working Geothermal system, once it was fully up and running.
Then, cones the service and problems with the water quality.
@ March 11, 2014 8:30 PM in Carlin Gas Conversion or new oil tank?You didn't read ME suggesting a conversion burner. If I recommended someone spend that kind of money for the installation of a conversion burner on a 20+ YO boiler, competition would call me a crook and a fool.
Once I realized how easy it is to blow the sealant from between the sections on those 66/68 boilers, I hardly want to recommend cleaning them thoroughly. After vigorously cleaning a GO boiler, the same effort will destroy one of those with a soot saw. Like I almost did with one. Fortunately, I was able to repair it.
There's something that they say to diabetics about testing your blood.
"You can lie to yourself,
You can lie to your doctor.
But you can't lie to your meter.
The same applies to a properly running digital analyzer. The print-out doesn't lie. Yu could get all kinds of interesting results with a wet kit. That all went out the window with my Insight. The only thing I still used from my wet kit was the draft gauge and the smoke tester.
@ March 11, 2014 3:20 PM in What is the safety zone in PSI for boiler pressure (and temp if important) for hot water Boiler heating system?That's true.
But it didn't make the Relief valve blow or any of the other symptoms.
I would say that once cold start oil boilers came into vogue, and they still used #30 Extrol tanks on the cold start's where they always used #30's on warm starts, they should have been using #60's because of the higher water expansion rate. If that makes sense.
I went to a Greet & Eat at the supply house that Amtrol put on. They gave us this little wheel calculator. According to the calculator, almost every Extrol installed was undersized. Especially on cold start boilers. That application is a cold start application with less water content than a normal boiler.
@ March 11, 2014 3:13 PM in Baseboard noiseYou can probably quiet it down with some silicone grease. Take off the covers. Lightly grease under the slides and where the front covers connect to the brackets. If it gets quieter, then continue. You can use silicone spray with Teflon but it might be stinky for a while.
But if it works,,,,,,,
@ March 11, 2014 3:02 PM in Carlin Gas Conversion or new oil tank?"" "45.8% ExAir" ""
With that amount of excess air, some might think that the section sealing is shot. Along with the front cover gasket. And the cleanout cover gaskets on the top.
With those other numbers, the efficiency should be higher than 82%.
@ March 11, 2014 2:51 PM in Mono Flow IssuesI found it this AM on the Taco web site.
Maybe they changed the # since this AM. I think that this might be it.
A lot more money than a 007 and a whole bushel basket full of squirrel nuts more.
Taco # 110 was always the choice of alternates until they came out with the 007 wet rotors.
@ March 11, 2014 12:41 PM in Rinnai RH180 or 100 Gallon Atmospheric?NYPlumber,
Does this happen with ALL your customers or just one?
I don't question anything you have said. But if they want 4-5 GPM's in their shower heads, first off, it's illegal for shower heads to deliver that amount (who's enforcing it) but it is also 240 to 300 GPH out of a water heater. That water is no more than 105 at the shower head so you need one large amount of cold water to mix with even 140 degree hot water. If you take a tank type 100 Gallon gas water heater with a high output and add the first hour rise/total, that's one heck of a lot of hot water. If ALL your customers have that problem, that is one thing. But if it is just one customer, I'd be seriously be looking into a hot water cross connection somewhere. They are insidious and hard to find. I think that someone is jerking you around. I defy anyone, ANYWHERE to stand in a shower without a flow restrictor in the head, with 60# PSIG to the valve, the valve working properly, and stay there for more than 5 minutes without turning down the volume. It HURTS badly. Then, over ride the limit stops on the shower valve and let it run to 110 degrees. They will be scalded and be turning down the temperature faster than that New York Minute they used to brag about.
I have worked for a lot like your customer(s). If they are old money, and they needed more hot water than the normal water heater could provide because too many showers were using it all up, they would have told the children to space out their showers and cut down on the time. If they didn't, they would be calling you about timers for the children's showers. The parents are different. They're "careful" with their money. We might call them cheap.
New money, they usually want the best but aren't willing to pay for it, once they find out how much it costs. Their cheaper but more demanding for a cheap fix.
You really might need to look into a cross connection.
Someone here (Mark E?) had a problem similar and after a while, found out it was cross connections in some shower valves. If you have some of those high end thermostatic mixer shower valves like Dornbracht or others, the thermostatic mixers go bad and need to be replaced. I can't remember the brand off hand but their factory in Germany burned down and they lost all their patterns. If they are that type of valve, there are no parts and the valves must be replaced.
I've worked on Hotels, large and small restaurants, Guest Houses and institutional buildings like a Nursing home. I've never heard of such hot water dilemma's a private residence.
I replaced a 100 Gal oil fired water heater with a Bock 73E 70 gallon oil fired water heater (220 GPH first hour recovery at 100 degree rise) in a social club that had a restaurant and dorms. The only time it ran out of hot water was around 10 O'clock PM, they would take the rubber mats outside and wash them. The kitchen was closing down and they were washing up. They weren't supposed to do this but there was a Moen mixer shower valve, set so the couldn't get hot water. Someone by-passed it and they were getting direct hot water. Shutting down the hot to the valve stopped the foolishness.
There's a solution.
@ March 11, 2014 11:30 AM in What is the safety zone in PSI for boiler pressure (and temp if important) for hot water Boiler heating system?When the expansion tank was replaced, was it replaced with the same rated tank or was it (perhaps) replaced with a smaller, cheaper one?
Asking some "Experts" might tell you need only need a smaller tank when in fact, you need a bigger one. Or at least one that is equal. Especially at on-line or big box stores.
I've seen a lot of problem systems with Expansion Tanks too small. I've never found a problem system with a expansion tank that was too big. Where the larger tank was the cause of the problem.
@ March 11, 2014 11:07 AM in Mono Flow IssuesI lost all my good technical stuff when I moved.
There's a good piece on Mono-flow systems here on Heatinghelp,com. I'm sure that someone will post a link to it.
The first thing that I think of is are the mains large enough to carry 350,000 BTU's? Is it a 2" main or does it leave the boiler as 2" or 2 1/2" and split?
The old Yellow IBR design book had excellent information on designing Mono-Flow/One Pipe systems. The new advanced manual doesn't have that information because so few systems are designed and installed now. Mostly all wrong anyway.
If the pipe sizing is correct, it is probably pumped too hard.
Here's an interesting article I just found. You have to understand and read behind the lines. But flow rate is critical.
Here's another good article. Get to the part about radiators seeming to have an issue with air. But it isn't air, it's improper flow.
@ March 11, 2014 10:58 AM in What is this?These convector radiators were almost exclusively connected to "One-Pipe Systems" or Mono-flows. If a circulator has been changed in the system, it may be wrong. Back then, the standard was the tried and true B&G Series 100,
Make sure that there is adequate pressure in the system. If it is two story with the boiler in a cellar, raise the pressure to at least 20# PSIG when venting. It will help "Squish" any air in the system. On many of these convectors, they used auto air vents. If the pressure in the system is too low, they suck copious amounts of air into the system. If the element is all scuzzy around the air vents, they probably are (or were) auto vents.
Often, the system temperature is raised up to get more heat out of the convectors. With a 12# system, you can get cavitation AND boiling water at the top of the system which causes the air to go into the convectors.
Make sure that the Auto-Fill/PRV is working properly. If it is old, replace it.
If it is one of those combination Relief Valve/PRV valves, the PRV isn't working when the pressure drops. Replace it. Put it somewhere else and put a REAL relief valve on the system. Those combi valves are expensive and don't really protect a boiler.
Keep that pressure UP!!!!
@ March 11, 2014 10:41 AM in Sizing a boiler in Watertown, MAIt's also why modulation is a wonderous thing of beauty. On higher fire, the load pick-up is higher and as the system heats up, the fire goes down.
Like a 80,000 BTU boiler on high fire, turning down to 20,000.
Like what Richard Pryor said in Silver Streak.
@ March 11, 2014 10:31 AM in water in tankThose oil burners must have been Beckett's.
With F4B filters and no Spin-On's.
With Spin-On's, there isn't even a need to check pump strainers. They are never dirty. But what passes through a pump strainer will plug a nozzle strainer, every time.
As you are leaving.
@ March 11, 2014 10:21 AM in Heat exchanger split after 4 years, misadjusted burner the cause?Did they install a by-pass circuit so that if and when the small zone is on and the main zone is off, the excess static pressure has a place to go? Back to the return?
There's probably a proper name for them but I once saw a job where a house had two zone dampers and the installer put a "Dump Damper" on the outlet so that if the static pressure went too high when the smallest zone was running, it would open up and dump excessive hot pressurized air into the cellar.
@ March 11, 2014 9:59 AM in Mono Flow IssuesWhatever possessed you to (or where did you read) to replace a B&G Series 100 circulator with a Taco S10, a high head, high velocity circulator that is way to big (and expensive) for your application? A 007 would have worked and been a whole lot cheaper.
Mono-flow systems will work on gravity without a circulator running. Not well, but will run. Mono-flow systems work well with the properly sized pump to move the water through the system at a designed and reasonable speed and volume. They will work poorly or not at all if they are pumped too hard and/or too fast.
I hope you used the black square cut O-Rings for flange gaskets instead of the POS red rubber ones that some wholesale counter people will try to sell you that are in the shape of the flange. Those red flat gaskets don't fit into the square groove machined into the circulator body by Taco and the other manufacturers. The gasket will dry out and leak.
@ March 10, 2014 7:30 PM in Sizing a boiler in Watertown, MAI have never heard such hog wash as has come from that group of uninformed heating rookies.
And they wonder why so many are going to FWA/AC or Hydro-Air.
@ March 10, 2014 7:22 PM in fuel cellWhen they crunch the numbers, they'll be putting in a new boiler.
@ March 10, 2014 7:20 PM in Legionnaire's found in heating systemMost likely they have a Hydro-Air with forced hot water in a air handler coil for winter heating and AC for the summer. They probably have some form of humidity control. The perfect culture medium for the growth of the organism.
Most Main Stream Media types wouldn't know hot water from steam or forced hot air. They should though. Most are full of a lot of hot, stale air. Along with the people that work in the building.
@ March 10, 2014 2:31 PM in are asbestos risks overblown?Not if you come down with Asbestosis or asbestos related lung cancer.
There are two types of asbestos fibers. 95% of what you see is the benign kind. The other 5% is deadly. You can't tell the difference without complicated testing.
The exposure to the bad stuff takes years to bear fruit. You're the fruit.
I like the use of the term "Volunteers". Do they know the risk? It is illegal to knowingly expose someone to asbestos.
Maybe you can find some "volunteer" to pay them to remove it.
Like "Black Lung" or "Brown Lung" or COPD disease. It isn't something that anyone signs up for
@ March 10, 2014 11:13 AM in Is this fixable?Anything is fixable.
Post photos of the boiler and the near piping. Show the "control box" with the lights. Is it green or grey?
I doubt that it was this way when it was new. There are a lot of ways to figure this out. The last ones there didn't want to try. If they ripped open the walls, what did they think they would find? You need a REAL Professional Wethead to look at it.
You're the only person that has posted your problem so obviously, the last person looking at it doesn't get educated at heatinghelp.com. See if someone here lives or works near you. You won't regret it.
Some of us here have never seen anything we couldn't figure out with time. Some of us have never seen anything that we couldn't fix. Some others out there could care less as long as they were in their vehicle at quitting time and headed to the local watering hole to get their medication. Or the boss isn't screaming because they didn't get the 8 service calls done for the day. There's no time allotted for your problem if it takes more than 1 hour to figure out and fix.
@ March 10, 2014 10:44 AM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionNot speaking for Nat, fix the valve and see how it works. The 3-way valve acts as a "Priority Switch" on a zone valve controller.
Trust me. There are a whole tribe of GV Series 1 and 2 that were ripped out because no one knew about the thermostat. That's why Series 3 and 4 had two pumps. GV's got a bad rap because of it.
GV's were sort of the first US condensing type boiler. I consider them as "Bomb Proof".
Because I am hyper aware, I notice things and remember them. I always wondered where the rust chunks came from in some GV exhaust terminations. I have now figured out that they were Series 1 and 2 with failed thermostats. The rust chunks will plug up the passageways. No one will bother to clean them out because "You don't need to clean a gas boiler like you do an oil boiler".
If the engine in your car was not running properly, and it needed a new thermostat because the engine didn't warm up properly and ran poorly for a long time in the cold, would you replace the thermostat or replace the motor?
Nat or I would give anything to have a boiler like you not jammed up against a wall on the right side so you had to get at the thermostat from the right side and have room to work. That's almost a gravy job. If the circulator under the top jacket stopped working, would you re-pipe it first and then see what happens?
You must not realize what a nice clean professional installation you have. Re-piping your system isn't going to solve the problem.
Re-pipe it. If that doesn't solve it, replace it.