Joined on September 13, 2010
Last Post on December 10, 2013
@ November 27, 2010 8:43 AM in Honeywell Controls making me KKrazy!Agreed with all.
The easy way on this is usually to leave the RA117 in place and jump a "certain wire" that gets power and starts the burner. Which is now live and operates the primary burner control. But that simplicity without actually casting a jaundiced eye on the whole thing makes :ME hodl back for fear of creating "the big spark" or click. Whichever it is. That signals the ruination of what was there.
Like I said earlier. It's easy but complicated.
Then, there's that little minor thing about where does the thermostat wire go.
@ November 27, 2010 8:33 AM in circulator issuesPlease explain that? What is it and why is something connected to "Z"?
Did you check the voltage at C-1 and C-2 and also at the pump connections? If you have power to the pump, and it isn't running, there is definately a problem. Does the pump body get hot or is it getting hot? Put a stethescope or a piece of pipe to the motor body and to your ear and turn the switch on and off. Do you hear a humm? If you do, rap the back of the casing a couple of times with a hammer. If all the above things are true, and it doesn't start, time for a new one.
Have you ever used a "Tick Traser"? You just put it on the hot and if the light starts flashing and it beeps, you know it has power. Get one. A good one like Greenlee. Use it always. If you ever ever have a question about a live wire,, test it with the T. Tracer. I hate sparks. It only takes millivolts to kill you.
@ November 27, 2010 8:21 AM in wiring diagramHDE,
That is the Honeywell "6000" series. Like the 6006 Aquastats.
My question is to the one that needs the info. But if it is bad, they have a digital control and I can never remember what the # is, but it will do everything that any control that you need will do and it gives you a digital read out on what it is doing and what the temperature is that it is checking. You can set it up to replace any control. From one that is a cold start boiler to one that is warm start but not controlling a circulator. I use it for most replacements. It costs more though. But that one control replaces a bunch of others so it will cut down on inventory.
And it is easy to figure out if you are replacing that old one.
@ November 26, 2010 5:24 PM in Oil boiler DHW among other "issues"No you do not. It is so high that even my wife complains. If you inadvertantly got shot in the eye in the shower, it could cause damage. And this is with the flow restrictors in. If I took them out, it would really be bad.
@ November 26, 2010 11:34 AM in Combustion AnalysisTest them.
Their eybrows will come down.
You are right, they are wrong, and they will come around.
You my friend are just on the cutting edge of technology and high efficiency.
@ November 26, 2010 11:30 AM in CSST bonding...Charlie: (from WMass)
Very informative and a history lesson on CSST. I have two certification cards from the mid '90's. And one from Trac Pipe from 08/2010. Guess that keeps me OK.
As far as the wire size for bonding, it doesn't say anything about stranded or solid. But, inspectors like police officers, are always right. It's easier to do what they say than spend the money and win a battle when they will win the war.
It always seemed quite simple to me. The whole house is to be "bonded" that includes the gas system. The problem was with guys who couldn't figure out or accept a bond clamp on the plastic. Why would you put it there? One guy I spoke to was asking for a specifically approved clamp to go on the CSST tube. It goes on the pipe or fitting (dummey).
@ November 26, 2010 11:18 AM in Vibrating Munchkin boiler???Munchkin uses a "fernco" type coupling on the exhaust. Why not use one of those on both the intake and exhaust? You will play hell unscrewing those unions in a year or so. You will probably break the nut.
I NEVER, never ever cement PVC without deburring the pipe and cleaning the inside of the fitting and the outside of the pipe. I only use clear cleaner because I think that although there is no question that you have cleaned the pipe and fitting when you use it, I always wipe the cleaner off with a clean white rag. I think it looks tacky and unprofessional. You can always tell I cleaned the pipe though because you will see the MFG's painted stripe removed where I clean it. I also find that the purple stuff doesn't do a very good job of cleaning the pipe because it has always dried before I cal wipe the rag on it.
Is there some foolish requirement that I an doing it wrong?
@ November 26, 2010 11:06 AM in ghost firing burnerWell, if it were old, I'd tell you what it is.
But this may help anyway.
It probably has to do with the thermostats and zone valves if they are Taco 57* type wax motor valves. If you have non-electronic thermostats like Heneywell T87's, the heat anticipators MUST be set to .09 amps. I set them to 1.0 or as high as I can set them. If they are El Cheapo builders models that can not be set for over .08 amps, change the thermostats. As the temperature drops, the thermostat "anticipates" when to turn on. Without this critical adjustment, the valve starts to open, the heat anticipater sends a slug of current into the valve and the valve starts to open. The #2 and #3 contact are made and the burner starts. At the same time, the thermostat has already shut down. It could also be a polarity issue. If it is a gas boiler with transformers, you may need isolation relays because of "ghost currents". If air handlers, you definately need isolation relays.
If they are digital electronic thermostats, you may need isolation relays or a proper setting on the cycling adjustment.
When this "10 second" start happens, does it again start a few minutes later and run for over two minutes and then shut down? If it does, than what I have described is probably what is happening.
@ November 26, 2010 10:39 AM in Vibrating Munchkin boiler???First of all, this install looks like the demo install of a trailer used to demonstrate Munchkins and how they work. With all that aluminum diamond plate on the wall. Nice though.
Second, aren't there two circulator leads in the munchkin? The first one is for heat and the boiler comes on at low fire, slowy ramping up. And the second one is for the indirect where it comes on at high fire so it starts heating water immediately and there is no restriction because the water heater indirect is actually part of the primary circuit? Something about that concept bothers me but they're smart and I'm not.
I found this out when an electrician winged it on a wire up and I had to figure it out.
And I agree with everyone here that the mixer valves are causing too much restriction in the promary loop. Had it been done with "bridge loops", it would have worked. But not with a restriction on the crossovers.
Set the mixers for maximum hot, then on all three and if the problem goes away, that's the problem.
You guys here sure know your poop. It's a joy to read this stuff.
@ November 25, 2010 9:09 PM in CSST bonding...Here's the poop on Counterstrike:
It is bonded like anything else.
@ November 25, 2010 9:04 PM in CSST bonding...It was always required to be bonded, just not enforced. I think enforcement started through a large political lobby that didn't like how easy it was to install over iron screw pipe. Someone claimed to have found holes in it after an electrical storm.
At the PHCC trade show last Spring in Marlboro, Trac Pipe was there with their counterstrike stuff. They had a sample of damaged pipe. It looked like defective pipe with a "pin hole". The other looked like it had come in cotact with a 400,000 transmission line.
The thing that became a problem was that no one wanted to accept jurisdiction. And who was responsible for the bonding. It was left to wiring inspectors to decide. Where I work, the wiring inspector outlawed it because there was no drawing in the NEC code book showing how to bond it. So the electricians refused to bond it. And we couldn't use it. Though it was used all over Massachusetts except in select locations where inspectors refused.
Trac Pipe owns the patents for Counter-strike which is just a high carbom plastic like on my electric fence. My supplier changed to Trac Pipe and we all had a lovely luncheon, took a test and became certified in Counterstrike. Even though I was already certified with the yellow stuff.
You can clamp on the adapters. Or, the pipe. But NOT on the carbon/plastic cover.
@ November 25, 2010 8:40 PM in Vibrating Munchkin boiler???What does that mean. You have a restriction in the primary loop? That will slow down the flow through the boiler? In my opinion, you shouldn't have ANY restrictions in the primary loop that can allow the water to flow slow wnough to flash into steam. It will do it in a heartbeat. These are really tough little boilers. They got a really bad rap because installers didn't read the instructions and piped them wrong. Then, they blamed the boiler for their mistakes.
Is it LP or Nat. Gas. It makes a difference. It must be set up properly by someone who knows what they are doing with them. I don't consider myself one of those.
@ November 25, 2010 8:30 PM in honeywell 8184GIf you are getting lockouts while running, and it is a "lockout" while running and you are standing there when it does it, try this.
Take a ohm meter and clip it to the cad cell wires and jump the FF terminals AFTER the burner starts. Check the reading. A 8184 should trip out at 1500 Ohms. A Carlin 602000 at 1600 Ohms. It should be running at anywhere between 500 and 1000 ohms. At least that works for me. You can "see" what appears to be a perfectly fine flame but the "eye" sees something else. If you have an application with excessive draft over the fire, it can "shade" it. I found a SS-1 Side Shot that went off intermittently for years. Carlin EZ-1 with 602000 control. I tried everything for years. Nothing stopped it. Sometimes it went 3 months, sometimes it went 3 weeks. Sometimes it went three days. When it started to lock out 20 seconds after establishing flame, and I was desperate, I tried that. What an interesting experience. I ended up putting a second draft control (RC) to control the excessive draft. I was showing 1400 ohms with good combustion results. not great but good. Great with the second RC and 900 ohms. And it hasn't locked out since.
Firedragon has a thing about it but I saw it somewhere else years ago.
I check every flame that way now as a back up.
@ November 25, 2010 5:34 PM in Parallel piping water heatersFirst off, these are domestic potable water heaters. But it doesn't matter because I just so happen to have an account with three Weil/McLain WGO-6's tied together as a proper reverse return, indoor/outdoor reset and sequencing burners. One, two or three burners may run on any given day depending on temperature, one or more will run. They, the burners take weekly turns on who is in charge. In 10 years, since I have been paying attention, I have never seen a difference in temperature between the boilers. regardless if they are running or not.
As far as potable water heaters are concerned, it seems to me in observation and in practice that what keeps them balanced is the temperature of the water. That the thermal weight of the water makes the lightest and hotest rise out of the hottest heater and they will all balance out. It is done by gravity. Delta T's whatever. All I know is that when I fugured out how you could suck off three Roth tanks with a two pipe system, the supply goes into all three tanks and the return only goes in one tank, Vio-lah!! Or how ever one would write it. When the tank with the return starts to get higher than the other two, it makes it suck harder off the other two, or it is easier to suck off the one with the return. It will always balance out because if one gets higher, the suction will be easier on the fuller tank and not until they all become even, will the suction change. You can put a tigerloop on as suction and no return and they will all draw down together.
I have done two water heaters as a balanced system and the tanks were always hot at the same point on both tanks. I once re-piped a mistake someone made where they used a 60 Gal. electric and a 40 gal. under stairs. That's why the shorter one. It was in series. The problem was that one had to run out first before the second one could come on. So, with no other alternative, I piped them as "balanced with equal pressure" on both heaters, the hot water flowed out of both and the smaller tank would start as soon as the smaller tank cooled.
I think that Mark Etherton was describing what happens when you do three in series. It doesn't work. You need to do it as a reverse return.
You may not see that it works or not if you install it. I do often because I get called when something doesnt work and I have to figure it out.
Sadly, this has become incoherent because I have had numerous distractions while writing this. Sorry.
@ November 25, 2010 11:30 AM in Forced hot water zone on steam system air boundI'm not an expert on steam but you make no mention of seperating the hydronic (wet) from the steam part of the equation. If you are just running the condensed water through the hydro loop, the water is probably boiling from differential pressures in the hydronic loop where in the steam loop it wouldn't matter. I usually understood that these loops were usually seperated somehow with a 12# fill valve and a extrol type pressure tank so the hydro loop maintained 12# pressure boosting the boil point to 244 degrees.
But it also sounds like you are taking the supply water off the bottom of the boiler and returning it to the bottom via the Hartford Loop. That sounds wrong to me. And it isn't common to mix cast iron radiators with hot water baseboards. Which is fed first? The radiator first? Does the whole radiator need to get hot first before hot water gets to the baseboard? Or the other way around? Did you use monoflows on the radiators?
If you use auto vents on the baseboard and the radiator, it would probably eliminate your air problem but would contribute to the early demise of your steam system. Because of the air.
I think that something is not right here,
@ November 25, 2010 8:33 AM in Oil boiler DHW among other "issues"And I am correct in assuming that you used a single lever in this first floor bathroom?
I'm in FLA right now. W. Palm Beach/Wellington/Royal Palm Beach area. They have no water tanks to provide head pressure. Just pumps pushing into something and variable speed pumps after the treatment tanks.
We have a one floor condo type unit. The water pressure in the shower is so high that it really hurts your body. You'll see.
@ November 24, 2010 9:01 PM in special radiator valveHere is some info on them:
I would say that it depends on where they are leaking as to the possibility of repairing it.
@ November 24, 2010 8:47 PM in Honeywell ControlsIt's complicated. Use the triple acting control. That eliminates the RA845. Then, use a primary burner control that replaces the illegal RA117 stack switch. Eliminate the old junk controls. If it is a three wire control to the stack switch, you will pull your hair out, if you have any. You need the circulator control part of the triple acting control.
I find that many electricians are clueless when it comes to boiler controls. I often must re-wire after them. It will be even more difficult to walk you through this if you don't have a background in controls. You could make a dangerous situation worse.
Find someone that knows what they are doing.
It matters not to me what you decide to do. My stuff works fine.
@ November 24, 2010 7:00 PM in Honeywell Controls making me KKrazy!It is simple but too complicated to explain here.
Really, if you don't know what you are doing, you should really call a professional who understands what you are trying to do. You are really doing a re-wire thing and should be done by a licensed electrician.
If you make sparks fly, it could be costly. Every boiler I have ever worked on was wired differently. The results were the same. When you turned on the power switch and colsed the thermostat, the burner started. How it did that took me a lot of figuring out. I didn't do it in a night.
@ November 24, 2010 6:51 PM in Honeywell ControlsYou can't get an answer without asking the question. What is it?
@ November 24, 2010 6:45 PM in CSST bonding...I don't know what state you all are in but in MA where I work, the only CSST we can use is Trac-Pipe "Counter Strike" pipe. There are specific ways that it must be grounded and what started as a small problem, turned into a huge one. It was jusisdiction over the bonding. Some electrical inspectors had one idea about bonding and others had other ideas. Common sense was not a monetary value on this one. The electricians were the ones that were supposed bond the stuff and take out a permit. They wouldn't because they couldn't find a fitting to clamp around the tube with the plastic. One was grousing about it in a supply house and I whipped out my copy of what you are supposed to do, CLAMP THE FITTING, NOT THE INSULATED PIPE!!! (you idiot).
It is sort of a power play by Trac-Pipe because they hold the patent for the high carbon jacket that will carry the lightening load. Which I doubt.
Look at your install manual from Trac-Pipe to see what is now required. We/I had to get recertified on Counter Strike trac pipe.
If I was home in MA, I could tell you. Maybe there is something on the Trac-Pipe Web Site or the Comm of MA, Plumbers and Gas Fitters Board Web Site.