Joined on September 13, 2010
Last Post on December 4, 2013
@ November 17, 2010 9:02 AM in Hot waterOK, Here goes.
Time to check the control for proper operation.
When the boiler is sitting there, and not having been operated for some time and the water is hot in the boiler, turn the "low limit" up to as high or higher than the high limit. The burner should start, if it doesn't, replace the control.
If it starts, turn the control back down to where it was.
Turn up the thermostat. The burner and circulator should start. If it starts, let it run for a minute or so. Turn the "High Limit down to 150 degrees or lower. The burner should stop but the curculator should continue to run. If it doesn't operate in the manner described, replace the control.
Turn the "Low Limit Circulator up to above the high when the burner is running and the thermostat is calling for heat. The burner should run and the circulator should stop. Turn it back down and the circulator should start again. If not, replace the control.
If all the things above work properly as I suggest, the control is OK but seems to have a wiring issue.
It's hard to see where the terminals are connected. That is not in MA because you can not use UF or NM wire for control connections. And I always lke to see all the wires coming pout of one terminal when there are three provided. It makes it so easy to find the one connected to the wrong place.
You have a idiot proof control. What is the manufacturers date of MFG on the control? Does it coincide with the time of install? I would be intrigued by the three knock outs on the bottom. Theu come with all three in place, Perhaps someone installed a used defective control.
Gor to go.
@ November 17, 2010 8:43 AM in Hot waterSomeone who replaced the control wired it wrong (or),
The burner and the circulator (low limit circ, yellow wire) are coming on together. OR,
$ucking with the temp controls is getting the thing messed up. The "high limit" MUST be set at least 20 degrees above the "low Limit" or operating control. Or, the burner will lock out or not start when the temperature falls in the 20 degree range.
Also, if the ZC/ZR terminals are running another control/relay, it can do this. You have the right control for the application, it is just wired wrong, set wrong, or it is defective.
And no one should be messing with the settings "to save money". They WILL save money if they don't have hot water.
DON'T MESS WITH THE GD SETTINGS!!!
I usually set the settings for a tank-less rig like this at 200 degrees for the high limit and 180 for the low limit or operating. Any lower and if you have a dirty coil or a small boiler, you have a hard time keeping hot water.
And to the guy here who moved in to a house that had a tank-less and eliminated it, you pee'ed away cash.
When I built my last house, I couldn't plumb it and had a very reputable P&H co plumb it. They were the ones used by the contractor. They wanted to use a indirect with a boiler WO a tank-less. W/M WTO where I wanted a WGTO W/tank-less and a storage tank. They insisted their way, I refused. "I'm paying for it. This is the way it is." I wanted a electric heater, they bought a "storage tank" that was a electric heater with the element holes plugged with 1" plugs. I gave them a diagram on how to plumb it. They didn't want to do it that way. Something about "pre-heating the water" (you don't need to "preheat the water.) Do it this way and if you don't, I'll just change it so it works. I had to change it.
Any of you plumbers in MA remember having to draw how to pipe a Brown Brothers copper tank with a side arm gas heater for your exam? Piped just like that. Works for anything.
Honeywell makes a electronic control that replaces ALL of those, including the one with the remote capillary tube. You can set it up do all functions of this control. It will do the above described thing. It will also cause you to run out of hot water because it goes through a self test period and the time it takes to do it, the water temperature can fall too low to easily catch back up on small, low water volume boilers.
For what it is worth.
@ November 14, 2010 2:47 PM in weil mclain gv gold lockout problemsTim,
Here's one for you.
There is a small Mod-Con boiler that I love. There are a ton of them installed where I work. They were the perfect replacement for Heatmaker. They had problems. Guys hate them who didn't understand the laws of physics.. They company has stopped making them because they got such a bad reputation.
I never had a problem really with them though some installed far more thanI. My friend Nat is an expert on them. I had one thatdid that thing that they did. Always going off. The company was big on venting, they they were regurgitating exhaust into the intake. There were spiders happily living in the intake. I changed the swirl plate. The swirl plate was what failed. The vanes would fail. I changed it to the latest model, made of the newest plastic. On later inspection of the failed swirl plate, evidence showed to conclusevly that the burner was backfiring and sucking the flame back into the swirl plate entrance and reburned. The evidenc was on only ons vane path. The venturi opening is seriously deteriorated from heat. Combustion testing Not a problem in four years.
I showed it to someone at a trade show. They tried to tell me I was wrong and why. Like you can see the sand bars at high tide.
I'll send it to you and you can see for yourself. They changed the design on the new burner. It can't suck the flame to be regurgitated.
If you plant a bush in front of the exhaust of a direct vented boiler, you will get regurgitation.
@ November 14, 2010 2:23 PM in weil mclain gv gold lockout problemsTim,
Sorry for your misunderstanding. I was talking about both LP and NG.
I only deal with LP. In MY situation, I had problems with the heaters going off all the time. Because I put one on each floor, and the other in a cottage, it drove me crazy because they all did it. And never at the same time.
Plumbers' Supply in New Bedford had a guy named Arthur (with a Armenium last name like Aratuniun) working for them that was a walking encyclopedia of controls and problems. One fix seemed to be that the flame sensing rod was dirty. It never was but I would clean it anyway. They still did it. Over time, after a lot of discussions with Arthur, he told me about the problems with these heaters during that very cold winter. We discussed this and it was decided that the problem was the falling gas pressure from overuse. Like a brownout in the electric grid. I surmised that the falling pressure would cause the burners to be down rated and run cooler, screwing up the air/fuel ratio mixture. No way to fix that.
So, me dealing with propane, I knew my pressure was always constant. Or should be. So, I tested the pressure in the system. It was just below 10.4". I raised the pressure to 13" and the problem improved dramaticly. Being a oil burner type of guy, I know that increasing the pump pressure will raise the output of the same nozzle. There was no way of easily changing the orifice, but I could change the pressure. I didn't go over the range. I also knew that there would also be a change in air/fuel ratio. There was no way to adjust the the air but I noticed that I could make a air shutter out of a piece of sheet metal and slide it into the air shutter allowing me to adjust it. I did, and I found that changing the ratio stopped the snapping noise and that they stopped going off on flame failure. They ran until a major renovation and they were removed.
On my comments on the cold weather and it going off, what is happening at one time of year and not at another. From my accumulated experience, if it is severely cold, and it starts going off, what is different about that? Cold air is denser. Are they having a brown out in the gas system, locally where he is? These GV boilers seem to be quite sensitive to A/F ratios.
I just threw it out there for discussion.
There is another discussion here and I pointed out that a plugged nozzle strainer on a oil burner will lower the pressure at the nozzle outlet, causeing all kinds of problems. Soot being one of them. It's all related.
Does he live at the dead end of a line? Did anyone check the house pressure during these incidents? I'll bet not. I would have. But, that's how I am.
Do you understand now what seemed to be a contridiction now? I was speaking of my experience with LP that the solution came from a problem with Nat. Gas.
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
Consider this Tim,
I ask a lot of questions of folks that I think may have answers to my questions. Most don't think they have no answers. But I pick their brains anyway. When done, they almost always apologize for not being able to answer my question. To which I reply, honestly. No, I've learned a lot. I know more now about things than before I asked you. I may not know at this moment what that is but it may come to me at some moment in need. Or fit some piece into a puzzle I've been working on. Thank you for leting me take your time. I really appreciate it. And I mean every word of it.
@ November 14, 2010 1:49 PM in Constant water feedingI thought I understood that steam boilers were supposed to be sized to the radiation. Not like hydronic (water) where you can size the boiler to the load of the structure.
If there is return piping under a floor, you can put safe money down that that is where the leak is.
In my experience.
@ November 14, 2010 1:32 PM in combustion set up on burnham V82If you can't get a competent pro, here's what "I" suggest.
Clean it until you can eat out of it. That means going in from the top and brushing down into the chamber. Open the front and clean it out. Thoroughly. Take a screwdriver and scrap up the side of the sections. If it is a cold start, switch it to warm start to maintain 140 degrees and stop the circulator when the boiler gets cold. If it is cold start, it has hard calcifious material between the pins. Take a piece of 1/4" threaded rod, screw it to a file handle and with this and a soot saw, scrape the crud out. All of it. Make sure that the refractory rug is in the bottom. A cold bottom will cool the bottom of the flame and cause smoke/soot. Reflective heat will fix that. Install two spin on filters like Gar-Ber filters. Change the pump strainer. You undo the four 5/16 cap screws on the end of the pump It comes with a gasket.
Trick. When you pull the electrode assembly out of the burner housing, hold the nozzle end up, Oil should easily run out. If it doesn't, the strainer is plugged. When you first loosen the nozzle in the adapter, loosen it slightly. Hold up the assembly. The oil should pour out. If it is a new nozzle you put in and it isn't working, and you have another new nozzle, when you take the assembly out and it appears plugged, change the strainer only. It comes off easily with a small pair of pliers.
You need to get all the specs for that burner. I find them complicated.
You should NEVER have any smoke. Never. It will soot up over a short time. Once it starts, it will continue to soot up rapidly.
As screwed up as it is, I would consider what I do when faced with that burner. Switch it to a Carlin EZ-1, Burner in a box. It will come with the proper nozzle installed, and all set up. You never need to mess with the "Z" demension bececause the burner you have is a "fixed head" burner and the Carlin is a "adjustable head". They use head positoning bars to get proper nozzle placement. If you are going to service this yourself, and I think you could, I think that you will find this burner far more user friendly. They also give away a yellow plastic electrode and head assembly tool that only a idiot could screw up. You do not need a ruler to use it and set the electrode igniters.
I doubt that the nozzles you bought were defective. They were just the wrong application.
Some guys really like Riello but I find them so complicated and proprietary, I avoid them and don't sell them. I will work on them.
My solution for a bad running one like yours is a brand new Carlin. Set up to Carlin Specs, they run very well.
Your brand probably does too. I just can never get them to do so. And I find others with the same problems.
@ November 14, 2010 1:04 PM in combustion set up on burnham V82Don't take this the wrong way but in my experience, you have screwed this burner up beyond all expectations.
It is my experience that this burner ONLY runs well with Delavan nozzles with the one that the BOILER manufacturer recommends in the burner application you are dealing with. If one gets them to run with a different nozzle, it is usually some variation of the suggested nozzle. And the experience of the technician doing the work which was gathered from years of experience and the developed skills.
I NEVER "F" with the "Z" dimension. I have never needed to.
With a .50 GPH nozzle, if you have dirty strainer/filters and you change the nozzle, the nozzle strainer will IMMEDIATELY plug up. I doubt seriously you have a Webster pump. All pumps come through with Suntecs. You should use two spin-on filters. You also need to have an experienced pro that really knows what they are doing. You have really messed this thing up. As far as cleaning it, I doubt that you have been able to clean this to the level that I clean them. Did you use a soot saw? you probably need to.
Is a V82 a V series, model 8 with two sections? If so, these really small boilers are very difficult to keep running properly with such small nozzles.
Others here may disagree with me but where I work, there once was a guy that decided that a 70 degree nozzle in a red container was the universal oil burner nozzle. Every burner he serviced, he put in a 70 degree nozzle. Even on Carlins that only ran well with Hago, 60 degree semi solid nozzles. On these he put 70 degree delavan blue containers that were solid spray. He serviced a huge amount of accounts. All the guys he trained and employed all do the same thing.
I've changed a lot of nozzles to the correct ones to solve these problems.
The burner manufacturers spend a lot of money and time testing their burners in different boilers for maximum performance and efficiency. I have never gone wrong going by their specs.
It takes years to develop the experience to do what we do. If I do a lot of soldering, for a week or more at a time, it becomes "natural". All my skills are there. If I don't do it for a long period of time, I need time to get my "edge" back. Same as working on oil and gas boilers. You can't do something once a year and be proficient.
When I first go ice sailing for the year, I don't have the edge I will have after a weekend or two of sailing. Like keeping the boat moving in light air. I develop a "feel" for the wind and ice. Same with using a combustion tester and adjusting a burner. I've been doing it for a long time and I am still learning things every day.
Get a pro.
@ November 14, 2010 12:23 PM in air in oil lineSlo,
If a 1a30 is plugged, it is a restriction. If you had a Garber with a restriction gauge in the vacuum port, it would be in the red.
Vacuum is a weird animal. You can pull a vacuum and suck air where you would never have a liquid weep. If you have a plugged filter, you get cavitation in a pump. Cavitation is boiling fluid. Boiling fluid is air. Air is the problem.
30" of vacuum will crush a tank and boil your blood.
You can have a "Jet" water pump that gets a restriction in the nozzle. The pump won't deliver the set pressure. Because the pump doesn't shut off, and doesn't have water flowing through it to cool it, it overheats. It doesn't need to get very hot but you get cavitation which sounds like marbles rolling around in the pump. The pump stops pumping water. The customer turns off the pump. You go on a service call. You take out the plug to prime the pump. The water is up to the top. You can't add water. With the plug out, you turn on the switch. The water shoots out of the pump, hits the ceiling and you. You put in the plug and turn it on. It pumps fine until it gets to the amount of pressure it will pump. You hear it "whooshing". Cavitation. Clean it out and it is almost like new. Cavitation kept the water from the vanes of the impeller and stopped the flow of water.
A lot of guys will say that the well is "gone" and they need a new pump and well. They just need the nozzle cleaned out.
Oil pumps do the same thing. He has a restriction alright. But if you don't put a vacuum gauge on the suction side of the pump, you aren't troubleshooting it properly. If the vacuum is normal, there is a leak. If one line is restricted, you will have high vacuum. Be careful swapping lines. If the restriction is serious and you swap lines, you may blow the pump seal. If one line is good and the other is bad, put a tigerloop on the good one. Abandon the bad one.
Of course, this usually applies to underground tanks. Abandon the UST and put one in the house.
Also, what I find is that if a General or Fulfo is getting sludged up, the supply and return lines are fouled. Blow them back with air. Put a pressure gauge on the return. If you have a high back pressure situation, and a high vacuum for the lift, the lines are plugged. I set my air compressor to 10# and blow them back. Blowing them into a bucket is nice. It could be plugged going into the tank.
Try a tigerloop. You might like them.
In Massachusetts, if you do anything to a burner, and the oil line is unprotected and under a floor, a tigerloop is the only way to go. If you go overhead, you are not required to use protected measures on the oil line. Though I always use covered tube.
Tip: 3/8" OD covered tubing bends really nicely with a Ridgid 1'2" od lever bender. You can sure do a really neat and professional job. Sort of like one knows what the $*&k one is doing.
OBTW, This is what high head circulators do when you try to overcome bad piping practices in heating systems. Cavitation and air.
@ November 14, 2010 11:48 AM in Boiler is cycling but no demand for heatSlo,
Because I drain/winterize a lot of houses, I always pipe a system for easy draining of things. This includes isolation valves and drains on a tankless to the water heater. When done like that, it is an easy step to 32% muriatic acid and cleaning out the coil to "like new" status.
If folks have water so bad that they need water softners, they are ruining their plumbing systems if they don't have them. Let alone the increase in soap. And if they have low Ph H2o, they need to get the PH up to make the softner work properly.
But your comment about going to The Big Orange Rip Off, it proves my point that a electric water heater is the cheapest way to go. The coil can get pretty raunchy and still make hot water. The trick is that it has a lot of time to heat the water.
Also, HONST, HONEST. I've seen Indirects that didn't heat water anymore and were replaced. "I" took out the coil. The potable water side of the coil was completely encapsulayed by lime scale. Insulating the boiler water from the transfer coil and the potable water. The lime will percipitate out of the water onto a hot surface. Once the scale starts, it's a short step to boiling inside the scale.
For what it is worth.
@ November 14, 2010 9:35 AM in Filling a Roth tank?A used tank and something is missing.
Ventalarms are required by code and insurance. Oil companies are not supposed to fill a tank without a vent alarm.
The opening on the tank is over three inches. The plastic adapters change that to whatever size you need.
If this tank is in Massachusetts, it sounds like the install wouldn't pass inspection. I've never seen what you describe.
A roth tank is just a giant plastic fuel container like you buy at the hardware store.
@ November 14, 2010 9:29 AM in Power Vent vs ChimneyI prefer a power venter to a FU'ed chimney and you can't always tell how bad it is.
I like and use Tjernlund SS-1 Sideshots and have good luck with them. If anything goes wrong, all moving and important parts are inside. I've never had to change the motor like on a Field, out side in the rain, snow or cold wind.
Others will tell you they hate them. Gas guys are all using powerventing. Get with the picture. Try not to face the PV'er to the Northwest but it isn't critical.
@ November 14, 2010 9:21 AM in air in oil lineGary,
While it is true that no one tool or fitting is perfect for everything, a Tigerloop comes close to that catagory. Here's why.
A Tigerloop is really a pump. Like a injector (Jet) domestic water pump. When you use a two pipe fuel system on your oil burner, you are using a similar thing when the by-pass plug is installed. The pump will deliver a set amount of vacuum (lift) in relation to to the outlet presure. The greater the outlet pressure, the less the suction. And the inverse. When you add a tigerloop, the fuel pump freely circulates the fuel through the tigerloop where it goes through a restriction, causing vacuum/suction. In a sense, it is then part of a two stage pump. But it will provide far more oil than a stand alone pump. Like the water pump, there is only one suction line. And that line is connected to a line to the tank. Usually, one line is compromised, not both. It is easy to tell which line is compromised. Switch the lines.
Single stage oil pumps will provide "lift". If a tank is on the same level but you must go overhead with the oil line, the pump will provide "lift" to prime the pump. Just wait for it. The pump will always be under suction. If the pump seal has the slightest imperfection, it will break the vacuum and you will not have fuel to fire.
Tigerloops have been used for years in Europe where they have a lot of wall mounted equipment and oil tanks outside. Tigerloops are used.
If you use a Spin-On type filter, like Garber, they have a guage port for a vacuum guage. In my opinion, all other type filters are junk and help turn oil heating into a perjortive word. I always install two filters. I hear this saw about "I like to look at what has been trapped". To that I say, Look down the middle, if you can see the shiny bottom of the cannister, there isn't enough sludge in the filter to look at. If you see sludge around the outside holes in the top, there's a sample of the sludge. When using two filters, I have NEVER seen sludge in the second filter, pump strainer or nozzle strainer. Even one after four years.
Back to the overhead. If you have a tigerloop, the overhead will prime up on its own and not require bleeding with the pump bleed screw. I have NEVER had a problem with the new Tigerloops with the black caps on top. The old ones with the plastic top with oil vapors leaking out have problems and I replace them. They will fail with a complete vacuum lock. The revised ones won't do that.
If you don't use vacuum guages on your oil lines, you aren't doing a proper job.
@ November 13, 2010 9:12 PM in Best Hydronic heating system?Or, if you don't have a tankless coil and need to keep the boiler hot, set the high limit on the boiler to 150 or 160 degrees. That way, the heat emmitters will not deliver as much in as short amount of time.
Regardless of what type of heat emitters you have, it is the heat content of the fuel, ectracted by the extraction system (burner) and transfered in to the water. The rate of either type of emitter doesn't matter. It is the heat put in the space.
The cooler the water, the longer the circulator will run.
They say that "Cast Iron holds the heat"
I say, "Cast Iron releases the heat slower. But the same amount of heat".
@ November 13, 2010 9:01 PM in overpressureIf it is a HB Smith gas boiler, it may not have a tankless. If it doesn't, and is a cold start, I would suggest that the #30 Extrol tank is too small. It should be a #60. A cold start has far more hydronic expansion that a warm start. I believe that the extrol charts show a boiler like yours that is cold start, needs a larger extrol.
I change a lot of cold starts to #60's.
I (also) always change the pressure relief valve if they have blown off a couple of times. If the high limit is over 180 degrees, it may make water over 200 and water will "push" under the seat. It will boil off leacing a calcious product behind and start weeping. Also, the precharge of the tank must be set correctly. At or below the set pressure of the PRV.
@ November 13, 2010 8:47 PM in flue gas questionActually, it has a lot to do with the temperature of the flue gas, the amount or moisture in it and the dew point. Your flue gasses could be far different than your neighbors and chimneys with flues have different characteristics than "B" vent.
@ November 13, 2010 8:39 PM in CO DetectorIt's not that there are no good plumbers out there, they just never get called or they are busy out fixing other peoples mistakes.
"There's never enough time to do it right but always time to do it over."
"If I do it right the first time, I never need to do it over."
"That may work for you. I've never seen it work for me or anyone else but it might work for you."
(You're an a$$hat) I know what I am doing.
Someone just called me about standing water in their yard. An engineer told him he didn't have a problem and if he graded around his house, the water would be led away. "Oh really" I said. "Have you ever seen a lake with the water higher at one end than the other?" No. You;ve got groundwater. Like the lake, it is level.
I'm an a$$hat. Go figure.
You didn't call me about your darkroom. Did he put check valves the mix valve to keep the water at that constant temperature ( I forget what it is now) for your washing?
@ November 13, 2010 8:23 PM in weil mclain gv gold lockout problemsJust to add something else into this mix of good things to look at,
The lockouts seem to happen when it is very, very cold. Have you checked the gas pressure in the system when it is cold? Are you at the end of a line where there are a lot of houses?
Years ago, Amtrol came out with a gas water heater they called a "Super Hot Water Maker". It was slick but it had a habit of going out all the time. It was a disaster for Amtrol. I only dealt with LP models. It was a very cold winter that year and they went out like crazy in RI and SE MA. I installed three in a large house. They would do the same thing.
My solution was to check the gas pressure and raise it to 12", make a air shutter adjustment and combustion test it. It solved the problem. It used to "snap" when running until it got hot. It was condensing moisture on this coil it had.
The problem was that when the outside got cold, and everyone was using gas, the gas mains couldn't supply gas fast enough. The outside main volume dropped and caused problems.
It's worth looking into. There's a lot of GV's out there. All seem to have strange problems. All around direct venting. Regurgitation (sucking back exhaust through the intake) seems to be the hardest problem. Does the exhause face the NorthWest? That's where the coldest and windiest winds come from in NE and RI.
Just my thoughts, useless probably.
@ November 13, 2010 8:02 PM in Thermostats aren't reading correctlyThese are non mercury, electronic thermostats.
I don't have one in my hot big hand at the moment but they work by "Cycling" so many times per hour. I think they have a adjustment to set them to cycle properly for the type of eqiopment you are using. Do you have Taco zone valves? They are power stealing valves and may be affecting the operation.
I don't think that these thermostats will ever be as accurate as the old T87 mercury ones. They were really precision instruments.
Another example of the laws of unintended consequences. No good deed goes unpunished.
@ November 13, 2010 7:51 PM in SparksIf this application is in an animal building with hay and animal dust/dander, I would be worrying about spontaneous combustion from flammable dust. If the dust levels are high enough to get "sparks" in the chamber, and it is coming from airborne particles, I would be concerned. You have heard of grain elevator explosions? The old farmers had wooden shovels to shovel the grain off the floors in their granaries. A spark from a metal shovel on a floor nail could cause a explosion.
But before that, I would take a torpedo level with a magnet on it and put it in that red rust stuff in the chamber. If it is iron, it sounds like the fire is causing deterioration of the fire side of the boiler. Maybe the new burner is too hot for the application and needs a chamber. Contact Weil-McLain about the application. Doesn't sound right to me.
@ November 13, 2010 7:37 PM in high Co2 readings, wet testerSLO-115,
They run even better on Low Sulpher (LS) or Ultra Low Sulpher (ULS) oil.
I've cleaned warm start boilers running on the above fuels where I almost felt guilty in cleaning them and changing oil filters.
But rewarding though.
@ November 13, 2010 7:30 PM in oil to gas conversionHere is an analogy I use:
I only deal with oil and LPG
I saw to customers:
Lets make this something you can relate to. Here are two, gallon buckets. We will call a one (1) BTU, a penny, There are 91,000 pennies (BTU's) in a gallon of propane. There are 139,000 pennies (BTU's) in a gallon of #2 heating oil. Here we have a bucket with 91,000 pennies in it. This other one has 139,000 pennies. Get the cost of LPG from your gas supplier and the price of oil from your supplier and decide which bucket you want. It matters not to me which one you choose. I install and service them both.
Every one I gave the choice to, chose oil
@ November 13, 2010 7:16 PM in Boiler is cycling but no demand for heat"listen to charlie that heat re-claimer
As for the tankless coil they never work well, time to invest in a indirect tank. It will lower your fuel bills as you can keep the boiler low limit lower + have more hot water. "
A "tankless heater" is a "indirect coil" inside a boiler, heated by energy. A "Indirect heater" is a "indirect coil" inside a water heaterstorage tank. You must pipe the boiler water to the water heater so it can heat the water in the water heater tank. With all of the problems of leaking coil connections.
When you use the coil in the boiler, you pipe the water in the heater to the boiler tankless. You use smaller pipes. If you use a indirect, you must cut into the boiler water piping, add pumps and valves and do electrical wiring.
This is a oil installation. Unless someone is committed to switching to gas, I would consider this.
If you gave someone a price to get rid of their tankless to install a indirect water heater. Which may mean throwing away a perfectly good water heater, so you can sell an indirect. You give them a price. If they ask me for MY opinion on what to do (remember, customers don't tell you they already have a price and opinion), I will tell them that why disconnect a perfectly good tankless when I can install a electric water heater (and not use the electric), add a pump and some minor wiring, and they will save a lot of money because they won't need to run their boiler as hot. I give them a price to make the change. Maybe they weren't going to spend the money for your install. My price is considerably lower than yours. They go for mine because it costs less.
You must give people choices.
If you own a oil company and you want to keep customers, you must do what you must to save the account and save them money.
Most indirects do not perform up to their rated outputs because the boiler is far undersized for their application.
Whenever I see a straight tankless, I see an opportunity to sell a water heater. A 50 gallon electric water heater is the cheapest hot water tank you can buy. It is heavily insulated and prewired for what I want to do.
When I did a lot of electric heat conversions over to hydronics, they always had a electric water heater. It was a selling point to save the water heater and use it over.
Hey but, you guys with the indirects are right. They are the best. For gas.
For me and oil, storage tanks work far better.
And I won't even go to the area of cold start. DISASTER!!!