Joined on September 13, 2010
Last Post on March 11, 2014
@ March 7, 2014 2:23 PM in residential split system shuts down due to overheatingWell, lets see.
If you had a tribe of pets, and they were shedding like crazy, and the house was cold in the winter, and you called someone to look at the problem, what would you do if they told you that the pet hair and dander was stopping the flow of cooling air through the elements because of the animal hair? Because it was covering the tops of the fins on the elements?
@ March 7, 2014 12:02 PM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionHere's the part and a photograph:
Here's the Tech Bulletin:
I don't make this stuff up.
If Techs would stop trying to re-invent the world by reading and contacting manufacturers technical support, life would be a lot easier.
If you called me and I told you that you need to fix the thermostat, and you called someone else for an opinion and went with their ideas, and it was wrong, you would never call me back.
I'm glad I'm retired now so I don't have to deal with the BS of experts that want to completely re-pipe a system that worked fine, then stopped working. If the piping was OK 20 years ago, and it suddenly stopped, what changed?
You never learn HOW to fix it if you don't learn WHY it isn't working.
@ March 7, 2014 11:49 AM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionA Zone Valve is a motorized Flow Check.
Almost every Munchkin I have ever seen installed when your boiler was installed was installed like that (yours). Without the 3-way. They worked fine.
If you have a bad thermostatic mixer, I don't care how you pipe it. It isn't going to work any differently.
Weil-McLain had another GV, maybe Series 2 which they shipped with a second circulator and you were supposed to pipe it as Primary Secondary. Some installers kept the second circulator and uses the boiler pump inside as the system pump. They worked. The ones with the broken thermostat didn't work. It all depended on where the plunger of the thermostat stopped when it failed. If it blocked the hole in the bottom, the boiler worked. If it wasn't covering the hole, it didn't work. There are varying degrees in between. The problem was so bad that they modified the internal piping and put both circulators inside. The primary loop was inside the boiler.
You wouldn't know about the thermostat unless I had told you. You had others look at it. I keep forgetting what my electrician friend always used to remind me. "They're smart, we/I'm not". Try the circulators and re-piping it. If it doesn't work, maybe they'll get smarter and look at that thermostatic valve inside. I have history with those boilers. Do they?
The only thing that the 3-way valve does in your system does is that it either makes the water go through the indirect, or into the system. It can't do both. That is your priority. Did they tell you that?
@ March 7, 2014 9:44 AM in Carlin Gas Conversion or new oil tank?What a difference that 3" would make (the difference between a 366 and a 466)
They stopped selling *68's in the early 1990's when they came out with the Golds.
They stopped selling *66's in the 1980's. That boiler is well over 20 years old. The tank less cover gasket is leaking. The burner plate is leaking exhaust gasses on the top. Very few that you can still read the red plate above it. That is one well maintained boiler. Not like a lot I have seen.
Like I said in the beginning, I care not in any way. But when that thing goes, it will be quickly. But it sure is nice to see something that is well taken care of.
The Wall Street Criminal Enterprise and their energy trading arm is gonna' get us anyway. Before I replaced any oil tank, I's be looking at some nice gas Steamer that has a consensus of opinion here that it is spiffy.
I just replaced my AC. The duct work was shot, 30+ years old. The rest was 20 years old. The last thing I wanted was for the OK running system to take a dirt nap in August. Sometimes its just time to say good by to old friends.
And get rid of all that copper tubing on the supply risers. I'll bet there's "Issues" with the operation that would go away if it had a properly installed header and such.
@ March 7, 2014 9:11 AM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionNice neat install.
If someone doesn't understand the problem I am writing about, they won't understand why you are having a problem. The last one I dealt with was installed in 2000 or before. The owner never told me about the problem they started having. They always called the gas company.
Take the top cover off the boiler. You will see that black painted valve with the plug in it sticking up between the two outlet pipes. Make the boiler run. Feel the pipes as they heat up. The boiler and the outlet should rise together. Reach down and feel the 3/4" nipple that connects the valve to the lower pipe. That's where the water is bypassing. The boiler will get hot but the water will either bypass through the hole or not. That's where the problem is. When the problem started occurring, and they couldn't get parts to repair the valve, Series 3+ switched to P/S piping inside the boiler because some installers didn't install the second circulator or something like that.
Its the same as a failed thermostatic element on a Watts 70A hot water extender valve on a tank-less coil. If it is broken, the only repair is to replace it.
As piped, you could easily re-pipe that like a Munchkin with P/S piping to the house, but if the problem doesn't go away, you still have to address the valve not working properly.
I don't understand the need for that 3-way valve. It could be compounding your problem.
@ March 7, 2014 8:54 AM in Heat loss through rim joist" ""Inch and a half holes were drilled through the joists within an inch to an inch and a half from the rim joist up near the top of the joist, for the loops to cross from one bay to the next. The aluminum plates stop about a foot from the rim joist. Now, it has been brought to my attention that insulation can't be installed between my tubing and the rim joist, and there will be unacceptable heat loss through the rim joist." ""
I noticed that.
It was explained to me or I figured it out, that with dimensional lumber (standard 2" X *"), you can only drill in the end third of a joist and only in the middle 1/3 of the joist with a hole no larger than 1/3 of the thickness. My "Rule of Thirds". The exception is when the engineering/code calls for a 2 X 12 as the maximum for a clear span (say 12' for discussion) and you need to drill a 4" home in a 2 X 12 for a 3" PVC pipe. You can't because the joist is probably 11 1/4". However, the only places that the 2 X 12 is needed is on those spans. If you have a room with 6' ceiling joists for the second floor, the joists are theoretically, twice the thickness they need to be in their locations. Therefore, drilling 4" holes in 2 X 12's spanning a 4" hallway is acceptable. Or so inspectors I worked with, agreed when trying to plumb multi-million dollar houses that weren't designed to have any mechanicals in them for aesthetic reasons.
But TJI/I-Joists are different. You can drill pretty much where you want as long as you don't cut into or get too close to the top and bottom chord of the joist. Or, the ends. It was explained or confirmed to me that "The Rules of Thirds (modified) came to play, Take an imaginary line from the point load on the middle end of the joist (crossing a Girt) or the end of the joist at the end/rim joist and draw a triangle from the end of the above sole plate inward. You can not drill or cut any place inside this triangle because this is where the load from above is traveling and it is the need for crush blocks.
Or so I learned at the time.
@ March 7, 2014 8:30 AM in Heat loss through rim joistHere's a pocket guide for TJI/I Joists.
It might be dated, 2005.
@ March 7, 2014 8:24 AM in Heat loss through rim joistHere's more:
I always understood that outside walls that hold the roof/rafter ends were considered load bearing walls. What I don't understand is the kerfuffle over the radiant loops being too close to the rim joists. How close are they? How far back are they saying the radiant tubing must be back from the edge? Are you supposed to give up radiant floor space for the sake of some minor amount of insulation? Most insulators couldn't properly wipe their behind with the stuff, let alone install it properly. Did you say that there is 1" of rigid foam against the rim joist?
If they used an engineered rim joist that matches the TGI's, (which they should), you didn't run the tubing under the wall did you? I doubt it. Its the turning radius they are squawking about.
It sounds like an inspector that was a contractor wannabe and couldn't or didn't make it and now wants to show everyone how badly he can crush gonads.
And that the insulator can't come up with creative solutions for his mistake and wants you to move your installed tubing at your cost rather than the insulator fabricating pieces of foam board between the joists like he should have done in the first place. I've never heard of such foolishness. But then, nothing surprises me anymore.
I knew an inspector like that. He always wore baggy pants with big outside pockets in the back. You were supposed to know what his hand in his back pocket meant.
He had a sign on his wall that he thought was funny.
"Arguing with an inspector is like trying to catch a greased pig. You'll never know how much fun the pig is having".
He thought it funny. I always thought it pathetic. Comparing yourself to a pig.
@ March 7, 2014 12:22 AM in Heat loss through rim joistSounds like someone is making stuff up. Did they install the crush blocks at the ends of the I Joists properly? You drilled through them?
Are they telling you that a 4" long batt, cut in half (2') and doubled up to fill the beginning of the span against the rim joist won't cover it?
WTF, I had a customer that decided to listen to a tale and had all her HVAC metal insulated duct replaces with duct board and flex duct. Part of the job was to spray foam the rim joists all the way around the house. They foamed in every wire and pipe. And all the shut-off valves and toilet mixing valves under the foam so that you can't find anything to work on them,
Is that what they want?
@ March 6, 2014 4:21 PM in intermittent lockoutsIts not the solenoid. Trust me. Very highly unlikely.
The thing about it starting right away is always a clue. Those of us that have worked on them a lot, will hear that spark "scratching" as soon as the relay clicks to start the burner. Even before the motor starts to run. If it isn't scratching, there's a problem. If it is an old iron core transformer, it may be getting weak. If it is a solid state transformer, it is claimed that they work until they don't. There's no in between. I have had experiences that say that it isn't so. Becketts are extremely prone to bad adjustments. You need to know which head you have and how it is to be fired to know which settings to use. With a Carlin EZ-1, you just get the plastic gauge, loosen the igniters, move them until they set properly in the notches, and tighten the 5/16" set screw. Put it back in and you're good to go. If you were there when a tech set the spark and nozzle and he didn't have the gauge out, he's a lot better than I because I have never been able to accurately set them without the use of the gauge.
Which can bring up another thing. There are instant on solenoids and there are delayed solenoids. Which wait some times amount of time before the valve opens and sends fuel to the nozzle. Delayed oil valves came into vogue way back in the beginning of time to solve some problem. If you have a 15 second control (you don't) and a 10 second delay on the valve, the control only has 5 seconds to decide to stay running.
There's only two things that make then not run. Lack of fuel or lack of spark. It can be both.
@ March 6, 2014 4:03 PM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionWeil McLain has a Tech Bulletin on it. You would probably have to contact them.
There is someone here on The Wall who doesn't read often. I can find out what name he goes by on The Wall. He has probably changed more than anyone. You could contact him. He'll tell you what I have just said.
If you look at page 22, it shows the part as #1. It has a plug on top. It is either a 3/4", 7/8" or 1" square drive. A 8 Point socket and extension will remove it. When you get the plug out, you remove the thermostatic operator. Once out, there will be a hole in the bottom of the fitting. Look at the picture. There is a 3/4" pipe nipple connection. You do NOT have to remove any part of the piping. Just jam the appropriate size copper cap, upside down into the hole. It stops the water from short cycling through the hole. That's the fix. That's the fix that Weil-McLain came up with and it was successful.
@ March 6, 2014 11:38 AM in intermittent lockoutsI have replaced nozzles one day and came back the next to change them again because they were plugged up. They were brand new. 24 hours old.
I stopped that foolishness when I switched exclusively to Spin On's and eliminated one source of problems. If you have a canister type filter with paper elements, those filters are 50+ microns and will pass through pump strainers but not nozzle strainers. I discovered this by changing an odd nozzle one day and having the burner stop. Because I took the strainer off of another good nozzle and the nozzle then worked, it had to be the nozzle strainer. It was. Spin On's solved the problem.
There was such a problem with sludge in tanks that I started buying obsolete nozzles at a bargain to rob the new strainers off new nozzles that I had just installed and the strainers were dirty.
In over 40 years of doing it, I can't say that I really ever saw an electrode set that was bad that you couldn't tell it was. If you thoroughly clean them off with PVC cleaner and wipe them down, unless you see carbon tracks on the porcelain, it isn't bad. The bad ones were the ones that the wire was too badly burned away and couldn't be bent into adjustment. Get the Beckett adjustment gauge. Its difficult to use. You'll have trouble with it. That's why I Iike the Carlin EZ-1. Its an easy one. Its idiot proof for idiots like me.
I seriously doubt that there is anything wrong with the R8184G1024 control. Do the checkout test. Jump out the two yellow FF terminals. Turn on the power. The burner shouldn't start. If it does, replace the control. While the power is still on and the burner hasn't started, disconnect one jumper. The burner should start. If it was running before, it will start. After (as soon as) it starts, connect the yellow wire back up. After it has been running for a few minutes, remove one yellow wire. In 45 seconds, the burner will stop and the control will lock out. The control is working properly. Then, there is the "eye". Another issue.
I really think that you have a fuel issue. But I'm not there. If the ignition isn't dead, its almost always fuel.
Then, there's my other thing.
My resolution for a bad running Beckett is a new Carlin EZ-1. Worked every time. Riello's are good too but need more experience on the part of the installers..
@ March 6, 2014 11:06 AM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionThe mixer valve that I am referring to is item #1 on page 27 if the Series 1 Installation and Operating manual.
If that doesn't work properly, nothing works properly.
You may have an additional 3-way mixer. That's not what I am talking about.
A GV-5 usually doesn't ever need the DHW priority switch on. They have plenty of nuts for making hot water and heating at the same time.
@ March 6, 2014 10:55 AM in computer room heat gain questionHow many BTU's does a human give off while sitting in this room?
The act of human cooling (sweating) will add moisture to the air which needs to be removed for comfort?
There's a factor for it when cooling. In heating, it is an added source of heat. When cooling, isn't an added load for cooling?
@ March 6, 2014 8:39 AM in Help needed on flame rollout switch keeping trippingYou gave the answer to your question. If you don't know how, or have the equipment, you need to have a professional with the equipment and parts to do the repair. Something is screwed up. You don't want to make it worse. The rollout switch is doing its job. Because something else is wrong. It didn't do it when it was new.
I once worked on one of those. I shut it down for repairs on a Friday.. left it off for the weekend. I finished on Monday and it wouldn't start. After some consternation, I discovered that over the weekend, a mouse climbed on top of the boiler to keep warm. He chewed sections of the rubber tubes for the fan proving switch.
I doubt that there is a way that any of us here could explain to you how to check if a mouse had been up to mischief.
"It was running when I shut it off on Friday, and Monday it won't run, what changed?" Something did.
@ March 6, 2014 8:16 AM in Carlin Gas Conversion or new oil tank?I'm not suggesting one way or the other.
But your Weil-McLain P366 has one short chamber. Be sure that whomever suggests a conversion burner checks to see if the gas conversion burner will fire into a boiler as small as that. For a 3 section boiler, it is only 9 1/2". Because it is a steam "AB" block, it might be 12 1/2" because a "AB" boiler is just the block and not a package boiler. I always used "AB" blocks because they gave you more choices in how you piped them. IE, return in the back for better flow circulation through the boiler.
I also doubt that if the boiler has been properly cleaned regularly, some of the sealant between the sections may be gone. It is not practical to repair it. IMO.
If it was mine, I would burn up the oil and have everything set to switch to gas.
@ March 6, 2014 8:08 AM in Condensate drain trap question:What I was taught and tested on is that indirect waste drains are supposed to have a free flow of air throughout the drain from the outlet to the inlet. And that where it connects from the source, there has to be a air break at both ends.
@ March 6, 2014 8:04 AM in Condensate drain trap question:Maybe its a Florida thing. They do a lot of different things down here.
I'll have to look and ask around. Maybe this is a different place in the world where things are different.
@ March 6, 2014 7:54 AM in intermittent lockoutsR7184G1024 controls are NOT obsolete. There are better controls but it is not "Obsolete".
If you don't have a 10 Micron Spin-On filter at the burner, have one installed. Or do it yourself.
Get a container for oil like a tray. Carefully, pull out the nozzle/electrode assembly. Keep it as horizontal/flat as you can. When it is out, put the nozzle end UP and the bottom over the tray. Does the oil rush out of it or does it drip out or not at all? If it is slow to drain out, the nozzle strainer is plugged up. Make sure that the proper 80 degree nozzle is in place.
Look down the burner tube with a flashlight. There's a hole in the middle the size of a quarter. Do you see any black crud around the edges of the hole? Stick your hand down the tube and your finger through the hole and feel the inside where you can't see. Do you feel any rough crusty stuff? If you do, take a old 1/2" or 3/4" copper fitting brush and brush the carbon off the edges of the hole. Brush any and all carbon deposits from the retention head.
If the electrode porcelains are black and you can wipe the black off easily with your finger, it is probably shorting to the carbon when it is trying to start.
When it goes to start, learn to identify the "scratching" sound of the arcing spark. You should hear it as soon as the burner motor gets the call to start. The flame should start almost immediately after that. If you do not hear the scratching, and no flame, then you hear the scratching and it starts, you have delayed ignition. You should always hear the scratching while the burner is running and flame is established with that control. If you don't hear the scratching, it will NOT start.
Thoroughly clean the nozzle/electrode assembly. Get a 1/2 pint can of CLEAR PVC pipe & fitting cleaner. It is the best and cheapest cleaner you can buy. Clean it thoroughly. You can buy an adjustment gauge but that's complicated and another issue. Hopefully, after as many service calls you have had, it is properly adjusted. But, you never know.
If you find that the nozzle strainer was plugged up or restricted, put the Spin-On filter on as soon as possible, replace the pump strainer and nozzle. The nozzle strainers can not be cleaned. Look to see if there are any very old nozzles left around from before you started having problems. If the nozzle in place doesn't match what is laying around, replace it with the same brand, type and spray angle that was there before.
You have to go back to a happier time.
I only tell you this because you seem to be ready to tackle this on your own because you have been let down. If you complete the above, you have completed my Step 1 basic WTF is wrong with this thing.
Hopefully, it will take you back to a happier time.
Let us know what you find and how you make out.
@ March 6, 2014 6:53 AM in Weil McClain Boiler QuestionIf its a Series 1, the thermostatic part of the 3-way may have failed and won't mix properly. There is an old tech bulletin from Weil-McLain on how to fix it.
You may not find the bulletin on the W/M website but they will say that the part is obsolete and unavailable. The fix involves getting the top of the black 3-way valve off and removing the broken thermostat. You then drive the appropriate copper cap into the hole inside the fitting. The plug is one of two sizes, You won't know until you get the top off. Primary/secondary piping will not solve the problem. You have to fix this first. I've never personally repaired one. I've just had customers and other plumber friends that had the problem. And the gas service company was expert in fixing them.
Someone here may have more pointers. The gas provider made some sort of tool to get the plug out of the top of the 3-way. You can't get a wrench on it. You don't need to dismantle the piping to do the repair.
All the ones, and the last one I worked on had the Priority Switch on the zone controller OFF. You couldn't get really hot water into the indirect, no matter how long it ran. The boiler was hot, but it was circulating internally.
@ March 6, 2014 6:39 AM in Rinnai RH180 or 100 Gallon Atmospheric?I did the same thing on a job. It worked out really well.
Mine has "issues" with the municipal water system that kept sending black bits of something growing in their pipes that would get stuck in the inlet strainer of the Rannnai. I put a Cuno Stainless Steel filter that could handle hot water and not melt.
If it slows down, check that filter in the inlet. It isn't much and it takes very little to slow the flow and keep it off high fire.