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icesailor

icesailor

Joined on September 13, 2010

Last Post on September 16, 2014

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Dollars & Dimes:

@ September 12, 2014 10:26 AM in L8124

Some people are so focused on the pennies and dimes that they fail to notice the dollar or ten dollar bill on the ground.
Its part of situational awareness.
That noise that no one else hears, that I hear, means that the filters are dirty and it is the beginning of vacuum shine. Or a circulator coupling is failing. Or a zone valve is sticking. Or a toilet is running somewhere in the house. Or hearing a click in a room when I open a sink faucet. Everything has a meaning.

System 2000's:

@ September 12, 2014 10:18 AM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

Actually, MOST of them work just fine. Some do NOT for periods of the year. Like the few I saw, undersized because the installer believed all the hype about how efficient they are and was clueless about heat loss. He installed one in a big old un-insulated 3 story house that had been converted from gravity years ago. He added a zone to the third floor. The burner/boiler was rated to fire at well below 1 GPH. On a good day in January, the system temperature might get to 140 degrees. The burner never stopped while I was there. If you shut off the new third floor zone. The house was for sale. I was asked to look at it by a customer of mine who was interested in buying it. The owners kept the heat on all winter at "low" in case they might come down for a visit. The GC friend that was doing the structural agreed, the boiler was way too small.

System 2000's are triple pass and heavily insulated. Because they are smooth, there's less to condensate on. Like massive amounts of pins that cause turbulence, slow down the flue gasses and allow the heat to be absorbed by the pins. Triple pass boilers do it by having large amounts of smooth passageways to give enough restriction for good heat absorption.
I look at it like sailboat racing in a big fleet. The Start is the only time everyone is together. Having clear air is critical at the start. If you haven't muscled yourself into a nice front row position so you have clear air up to the first weather mark, you just won't do well. If you get stuck behind the first row, the air will be so disturbed and bent that you will be the slowest boat in the fleet until you can tack over and get into some clear air. Those pins in a boiler are like all that restriction. Or standing in a forest of trees on a windy day. It might be blowing 30 over the top of the trees, but its just a light breeze on the ground through the trees.
Cold Start soot flakes are different from warm start flakes. Ask anyone that knows how to use a soot saw and Soot Master Vacuum.

10 Hours:

@ September 12, 2014 9:47 AM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

 "" Do you believe that it can never make it say 10 hours without a call? ""

In MY own personal experience, 10 hours is a piece of cake. If a 50 gallon storage tank or indirect makes a call and the boiler goes to high limit, you must think that the burner goes and runs the entire time the circulator runs. It shuts off on high limit.

 "" Where are the cold start boilers that Ice is referring to that plug themselves ever year? ""
You must not clean oil boilers. Or if you do, they are like some of the ones I see that were cleaned and serviced in less than an hour and it takes me 3 hours to get them satisfactorily clean again. If they can be cleaned.

What you see as "normal" debris, I see as the result and remains of cold start condensation. I've seen complete, fairly new, working boilers ripped out and replaced because someone was too lazy to clean it, or someone else had been too lazy to clean it properly. Steamhead posted some photos here back a while ago of some of the prize gems he's found that were well serviced that he had to rip out. Bet a Starbucks black Venti that most  were on steam boilers with a DHW coil and a wet leg that just called the burner to run like a thermostat and used some sort of high limit water control to stop the burner. Steam Boilers are cold start.

Well Said: (Bob Bona)

@ September 12, 2014 9:29 AM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

Well Said.
He must have seen or read something that got his shekel saving mind into a conundrum.
And there's no possibility that anyone here knows what were talking about. Like if you take what I do, and use storage tanks on oil boilers with tankless water coils, have the High Limit set to 160 degrees which heats the house just fine in the coldest of cold, and set the "LO"/Operating control to 140 degrees to stop internal boiler condensation, and the water heater set to 125 degrees, he equates any circulator running the same as the burner running, sucking up vast amounts of fuel/money.
And he asks how interesting it would be if any one had any idea about how long things run (save money).
Well, I know how MINE worked. In the AM, after showering and hot water usage, I'd go down into my cellar/shop. The DHW circulator pump was running but not the boiler. Because it was sucking stored latent heat in the 160 degree boiler and transferring it to the 125 degree storage tank. Once the storage tank was satisfied, the DHW pump shut off. I've worked on projects the whole day on a weekend and the burner never, not once came on and ran. Of course, all my clock thermostats were down to 58 or were off in unused zones. 4:30 PM, zones would call and the burner would start, and cycle because I got home around 6:00 PM. But there was no hot water usage.
At my ancient age, I've come to realize that some are born with a switch into their brain that is operated by the sound of a burner running. It sets off the center of the brain that controls anxiety and causes an anxiety attack. The invisible sound of cash being extracted from their wallets. Funny how that same switch doesn't set off an anxiety attack when at Starbucks getting a black Venti French Roast and a stale pastry.

Then, DIY'ers who come to a professional forum where the members are mostly willing to share information with DIY'er. And a DIY'er comes here and starts telling the experienced Pro's how to do things? There's a DIY board on the Internets that I occasionally look at. I look at it to remind me what Steamhead always reminds me/us. "You Can't Fix Stupid".
Sooner or later, some have to give up ALL hope of a better yesterday.

Blue Wires:

@ September 12, 2014 8:33 AM in L8124

There's an old State of Maine story.
Someone said about Uncle Kurt: He's s' stubborn, that if he fell in a river and drowned, they'd have to look upstream to find his body.
Turning the red "LO" knob as low as it gets does the same thing with a lot less effort. You'll use more fuel waiting in line at Dunkin Donuts waiting for coffee and donuts after driving out of your way to get your AM coffee on your way to a job of Tea Time in the AM. Or, leaving your diesel truck running outside the supply house "because it cost more to start it again than it does to leave it running". Another Urban Legend.
Another case of stepping over Ten Dollar bills to pick up a dime.

L8124:

@ September 11, 2014 9:47 PM in L8124

Can you change a L8124 to a cold start?
Of course. Turn the "lo" down as low as it will go. Then, it won't start unless it gets down that low. Then, it only runs on the High Limit.
In the Spring and fall when it is warm out, turn the "Hi" down to 130 degrees. It will probably be fine and keep the house warm. Watch it make kibbles and bits because the hot flue gasses cool against the cold flue/section passages. Put an ODR on it too.

FCG:

@ September 11, 2014 9:39 PM in PLEASE READ: New site going up this week.

The old family owned wholesale house I traded with, used all paper invoices. Somewhere along the line, one of the two sons who owned it with their father decided that they should look into going computerized. So, he hired this tech guy to set them up and get their 3 or 4 stores (at the time) going. I know that at the time, there were a couple of good decent stock/sale/inventory programs out there, but this guy started from scratch. He designed his own one of a kind program. It didn't work. The son, my friend always referred to the man as "The FCG". Which was defined as "The F*^$ing Computer Guy". They finally parted company and they ended up buying a big huge ready made program for Wholesale Houses. I think they are up to 18 stores now.
So, if you're working around, and someone who doesn't know you or what you do, just tell them that you're The FCG Guy.

Compatibility:

@ September 11, 2014 9:09 PM in PLEASE READ: New site going up this week.

Hap, they suggest changing a "Compatibility" setting by checking or unchecking a box in IE. This AM, the site I use worked. I thought they had fixed it. As soon as I went to another topic, the fix was undone. I later tried unchecking the box. It then worked. Once. Then it stopped.
If for whatever, this current problem with the one site started when Disqus started an improved ability to send replies back to the original sender. Before, you had to go and look for them. They could be weeks and months old. Personally, I think that Disqus has created this problem. In all the years I've been "Puteing", I've never seen anything so closely linked to something.
The problem is that there are no set standards. Its anything goes. Like before 1915 and when they started the SAE to standardize auto parts. Before then, every nut and bolt on an automobile wasn't interchangeable. If you work on a really old car, you need to be a machinist.
All those old computer languages like Fortran are lost. Some years ago, there was some Space Object that needed attention. They had to beat the bushes to find some old dogs who used to program for NASA to fix it.
There's no standards. As long as companies want to re-design the world and make everyone else obsolete, the computer industry is down the tubes.

For years, since the 1990's MS WIndows always supported old DOS programs. Not now. Everything is geared to obsolescence. Unfortunately, the new, new, is worse than the old,  old.

And understand. Only the use of using Disqus as a comment platform has the problem. If all I wanted to read is the story outlined, it wouldn't make any difference. But because I am more interested in what people say about the subject, makes me come. But if there are no comments posted because of this Disqus problem, who will come? I read Huffington Post, for the comments and to reply. They stopped their own commentary and turned it over to Facebook where you had to get a Facebook Account to reply. They lost hundreds of thousands of members.

120 * Condensation:

@ September 11, 2014 8:32 PM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

Well, I'll be darned. The laws of weather and physics changed when I wasn't paying attention.

There's an easier way to do what you want. I've never seen anyone do it, but it might work for you.

Good Luck.

What's that freezing temperature of water again? -40 degrees?

Chinese Steel:

@ September 11, 2014 8:15 PM in What affects the vacuum degree of vacuum hot water boiler

Actually, the Chinese take our high quality steel that we used to build bridges and other such steel things, we tear them down and scrap them. Where the quality scrap is sent to be processed into cheap Chinese steel.

Its the American Way. Puts a lot of Americans to work picking scrap and puts a lot of Americans out of work who used to make quality American Steel and building quality American Bridges.
Like I said. Its the American way.

Flue Gasses:

@ September 11, 2014 7:50 PM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

I hate to prick any balloons but any flue oil boiler with internal water temperatures that are under 140 degrees will condense water and make this magnificent slurry that grows kibbles and bits inside the boiler. It will form on any cold surface until the boiler is warm.
A well maintained cast iron boiler like a W-M WGO 3 or 4, will go from room temperature in the boiler to 140 degree boiler temperature with the circulators stopped, within 5 minutes.
The piping/wiring scheme that you suggest is a real energy sucker when you use multiple zones and an Indirect, and don't use the Priority Control because because if the indirect tank is hot and both a cold zone and hot water tank start together, a large portion of the already heated and stored heat will be lost to the boiler and heat piping zone.
How much do you save by running it cold start and not warm start for the summer?
Most spend more on beer than they will ever save.

Cold Start Aquastats:

@ September 11, 2014 7:37 PM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

The Cold Start Aquastat is just a high limit with a TT connection to a relay to start the burner and circulator. When it gets powered up, it runs. When it hits the set point, it stops. 8124? I can't remember numbers.

Condensate/Cleaning:

@ September 11, 2014 7:31 PM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

If someone hadn't needed my camera more than I, I could have shown you what happens when they condense.

The "Delay" you notice is with the more advanced "Pre-Purge/Post Purge controls. The control gets the call. The control does a self check while the pump runs, sucking heat from the indirect back into the cold boiler, to waste up the chimney. The "Pre-Purge" starts, 15 to 30 seconds, and the solenoid opens with the burner starting. It isn't planned to be some exceptional idea on oil burning equipment and energy savings. Its just what it is.

Every Weil-McLain WGO cold start boiler run on oil for a year, needed a soot saw to just get through between the sections. Between the pins took a piece of 1/4" or 5/16" threaded rod on a file holder handle. Sometimes, you can't get it all out. If you've never opened the front to clean out the floor, you've never cleaned one properly. I've put a florescent trouble light in the bottom and not seen the light through the Kibbles and Bits.

Some don't even bother to try to clean them. They just condemn a perfectly good dirty boiler and sell them a new cheap one.

Series 2 GV4's.

@ September 11, 2014 7:17 PM in WeilMclain GV4 Series3 88000 BTU out, NG boiler

If it is a Series 2 with the thermostat, many strange things happen to that boiler when the internal valve fails.
A year or so ago, there was a big discussion woth someone that had one with the broken thermostat.
Seriously though. If you have IFC's in the circulators with those Taco 572 zone valves, you don't need IFC's or ANY flow checks. The zone valves are the flow checks.
You really need some piping weenie to look at it. Its not simple, but it really is.

Disqus:

@ September 11, 2014 7:10 PM in PLEASE READ: New site going up this week.

Dan,
Tell me some place that you go to deal with Disqus. If I don't get a white display saying that Disqus doesn't recognize my browser, it might be OK. Whatever the problem is, it is known. Anyone that has bought a Windows Machine and isn't a Tech Weenie, is probably running  MS Internet Explorer. Their Website even tells you that they don't really support IE, but FoxFire, Google Chrome and others. People using Mac's or Portable Devices may not be affected.
I've been reading News Groups since the 1990's.  A few years ago, I started noticing that when sites switched to Disqus, I could no longer reply to a post. I could read all content, but I was never allowed to reply or comment. The last and final site stopped working 7-10 days ago. They have all postings on their site. So, I can't look to see if I ever posted anything. Its as if I never existed. The problem for them must be in the responses coming back. They started a new feature where if someone liked what you said, they could check a box. They could also comment on what was said. The new feature added was that they sent you a link from Disqus displaying all the comments back. That's where the problem is. For some reason, Disqus no longer recognizes something in a IE browser. There is no way to contact them, because #1, they have no easy way to contact them, #2, they won't recognize an IE browser. Even is you try to send them an E-Mail or access their Web Site, it won't recognize your browser.
The site I read and commented on would have 200 or 300 postings on any one topic. Just after the problem for me started, it dropped to less than ten to twenty. Searches all through Google, CNet and other places all show problems. With IE 8, 9 or 10. I run 11. I can not find a fix. It is on the Disqus side. Because everything else works.
Over 40% of Windows Machines run MS Internet Explorer. I have years of saved "Favorites" that I would not want to risk loosing. It would be like loosing your Cell Phone and loosing your contact list.

Just saying:

Zone Valves:

@ September 11, 2014 6:44 PM in WeilMclain GV4 Series3 88000 BTU out, NG boiler

Is there a flow control/flow check on the system?
Those are new circulators. Are there IFC (Internal Flow Checks) inside? If so, take them out. The zone valves are motorized flow control valves. If there is a flow control on the second zone and it has zone valves. open it. You can isolate the system from the pressure/Extrol. tank from the system when the zone valves are closed and a flow check valves are closed.
I'm only going by what I can see in the photos.

Knowing:

@ September 11, 2014 9:33 AM in heat gain

What's harder to imagine is all the information available out there and all who don't know it's out there.

Venting Tables:

@ September 11, 2014 9:27 AM in Chimney for forced hot air oil

Then, there's all those pesky vent tables you can get confused over.
Like with Weil-McLain oil boilers. They show 8" X8" chimney and you can use a 5" exhaust from the boiler to the chimney but as you go up in size, they require a larger boiler to chimney size. And like all WGO oil boilers, the maximum breeching collar is 7" venting into a 8"x12" chimney. They have tables that get into the overall length of the chimney/vent. The reason for the 7" maximum vent breaching is because that is the maximum that can be vented out of a boiler with that input/output. The same as that the smallest WGO-3 has a 1 1/2" NPT inlet and outlet. The same as the largest boiler in that series. If you need more flow, you need a bigger series that has a 2" NPT inlet and outlet.
The wrong question was asked. Not whether a 5" exhaust vent is OK but is a 5" exhaust vent from the breeching of the appliance and up vertically for "X" distance OK. It might be for 4" developed length into the vertical flue, but not the overall vent length. You have to look at the vent tables.

Who is Don Fletcher? :

@ September 10, 2014 5:34 PM in PLEASE READ: New site going up this week.

He's probably a FCG.

Comments:

@ September 10, 2014 1:20 PM in PLEASE READ: New site going up this week.

I hope that the new Format doesn't include using Discus as the commentary manager. If you do, there may be a major problem. I have discovered that Discus does NOT support Internet Explorer nor is it  backward compatible.
It is supposed to support IE explorer that WIndows XP supports. MS no longer supports XP and Windows 7 used IE 9. There is also a newer version of IE, IE 10. If you have upgraded from previous versions of IE like as far back as IE 5 or 6, there are cookies and crumbs left behind that will cause Discuss to not recognize your browser.
If you type in (discus.com) into a browser, and you get a message that "Discus does not support this browser, you're going to have a problem. They have been slowly eliminating IE browsers for others. Internet Explorer 9 & 10 us used by over 40% of the worlds browsers on Windows Machines. You will be blocked out and no way to even get a message through.

If anyone cares.

Old Ways/Good Ways:

@ September 10, 2014 1:06 PM in Why is my boiler hot all summer with an indirect tank?

You need to post a photo of the front of the boiler to see what kind of control you have on it. If there is no tank less heater coil on it, and the indirect with zone valves an end switch may be stuck closed on a zone valve keeping the boiler on high limit when it should be off. It is better that the boiler be maintained with some temperature. A minimum of 140 degrees to stop cold condensation in the flue gasses.
If you take the cover off the temperature controller on the front of the boiler and there is only a round wheel that only turns. and not two red plastic switch levers marked "HI" and "LO", it is more likely that something is making the boiler controls think that there is a call for heat when in fact, there  isn't.
What is the temperature setting in the indirect water heater? Try 130 degrees.
How do you know that you have used 150 gallons of oil since may? Unless you have filled the tank and it was last filled in May, you can't go by the gauge in the tank. That basically tells you that there is oil in it. When the red or white mark in the gauge glass is as far down as it will go, it is going to run out of oil. And they never fill it to the top. 275 Gallon oil tanks are only filled to 240  gallons or less when new. They need room for expansion.

Talking:

@ September 10, 2014 9:02 AM in heat gain

You must mean like the people that can thoroughly clean 8 oil boilers completely in an 8 hour day?
When you go on a no heat call because the boiler is totally plugged up, and it takes 3 hours to thoroughly clean the boiler and fix up the burner, the owner complains that the last guys took less than an hour to do what you just did and they only want to pay for an hour.
Why did you call me? Because they wouldn't come or didn't answer their phone.
You should have just kept calling until they answered.
And they get frosty when we refuse to do cold calls unless recommended by a good customer.
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