Joined on September 13, 2010
Last Post on May 11, 2013
@ March 24, 2013 10:23 PM in Heat loss calculation softwareSlant/Fin "Heat Loss Explorer isn't pessimistic about infiltration where high winds are concerned.
Pessimism on heat/cool occurs in heat loss programs comes when you either round UP or round DOWN. I have always rounded UP.
@ March 24, 2013 11:19 AM in Radiators piped in series.........Sometimes, supply or return on the top isn't a problem. It can get to be a problem if they are on the same side. The water can go straight up on side and not heat the radiator. If they are diagonal, it might work diagonally. I've put a pipe in the bottom or the top to get the water to flow to the other side of the radiator. Its a matter of figuring it out, and trial and error.
Cast Iron radiators shouldn't be series looped. The first radiator is red hot while the last one is just getting warm.
@ March 24, 2013 9:27 AM in Water service freezingFWIW,
If it is 4" Ductile Iron, and it is straight run pipe with gaskets, and there aren't any 90 degree turns between the inside if the house and the area where the service is freezing, and there is a "Tee" fitting that you can get into, push a length of 3/4" 200# PE pipe into the inside of the 4" DI pipe. Use a double tapped bushing, push the 3/4" pipe past the shallow area, connect the house end to a bronze circulator and circulate the water through the effected area. Like a closed loop ground water heat pump. The warmer water in the deeper area will provide enough heat to stop the freezing. If the affected area is under a driveway that is shaded for part of the day, it will get frost. You can spend a lot of money on energy to try to heat the water but if you circulate warmer water that is available in the service, you will solve the problem.
An easier low tech solution is to bleed off potable water from the service during times of cold frost times. If the service is Ductile Iron, it is metal the whole way. It can be thawed with an arc welder if the metal goes into the building. Connect a ground lead to the inside from the welder and have a connected point on the DI service. The electrical current will do the rest.
You can bury 24" of solid foam insulation around the pipe. Unless you find a heat source to overcome the cold source, the service will freeze.. Why not use the warmer soil in the deeper area as a heat source? Its free.
But you guys seem to see this problem from a far more complicated solution than I do. Keep It Simple but don't be Stupid, KISS.
Here's an example of what you are dealing with.
A customer called with no water in September a year or so back. The building was condo'ed shops from an old auto repair facility, done on the cheap. No plans for anything. HVAC was gas heat and AC through furnaces. The compressors were in three locations. Between the buildings was a pit with the water services. Everything seemed to go under the buildings with an unaccessable crawl space. The gas piping had leaked and it had all been replaced to an overhead. The only way to look under the floor was to cut holes. Whatever obstruction was in the one unit was total. 300$# of air wouldn't move it. I decided that somewhere under the building, there was spome kind of an obstruction and I would need to snake a new water line under. I ran fish tube to pull it back for the new service. I dug up outside the water meter pit to make the connection. I found this solid mass of dirt. I noticed it was very cold. In September. Then, I noticed that huge clumps of frozen dirt came off the dirt mass that had the form of the piping. I realized that the ground had frozen because the HVAC installer had run all the liquid/vapor lines for the HVAC units from the compressors in the outdoor space. One of the compressors was low on liquid and was super cooling. One of the other units was super cooling and the thermostat was set to 60 degrees but it was 75 degrees in the unit space. The refrigeration lines were insulated. The water service was not. I knocked off the frozen frost soil, shut off the compressor, and in a while, the water started to flow.
@ March 23, 2013 3:49 PM in Pressure rising to 60psiThere's a leak from the high pressure (Potable, Street) side to the lower pressure, closed heating side somewhere. A indirect coil most likely.
@ March 23, 2013 3:44 PM in Off-Season Savings?Its my experience that these organizations, run by "Boards" have one or more that think that any money spent on your services is taking food or education from their first born son.
I find that if you give them a lot of choices that can be advantages to both, that something can come of it.
If you can show them a way to do what they want for not a lot of money, things get going. A Indirect Tank less may sound like a good cheap alternative, but someone is going to have to pay for it. Make something work that is existing, let them try out doing what they want and next year, you might get to put in a Tank less in a building. But not ALL the buildings.
If you give them a price to do something that is expensive without alternates, you could loose a customer. If I gave them a price, it would be so riddled with prices that they would be interested in doing something. A money maker. I don't know what your service is like. This is a perfect fit for myself who always works alone.
@ March 23, 2013 3:34 PM in Off-Season Savings?If it is a "Camp", it must have a central water supply location. The buildings must have individual shut-offs. If so, the buildings can be easily drained without a lot of effort. I don't know what the property looks like, but it is far simpler than you might realize, no matter hoe complicated it might seem.
And it doesn't take a big air compressor to do it. If you work it right, and you are like me, it will give you a fill in job all winter long. My policy with my customers is to give me as reasonable notice as possible and I will have everything on and working when you want it. I never have broken pipes, and they have seamless use of their property.
It works for me. It might or might not work for you.
@ March 23, 2013 2:33 PM in HTP Versa SeriesSome folks like a little hot water (DHW) with their heat. Others like a little heat with their hot water (DHW). It depends on how you look at it or whay you want to do..
But I have to ask, what is the difference in how the system works with a flat plate HX or a coil stuck inside of a boiler with potable water run through it to extract heat energy out of the boiler?
@ March 23, 2013 7:43 AM in reliable Low cost thermostat with remote sensorSounds like the customer has a taste for expensive Champagne but only wants the simplicity and cost of Bud Light.
Ya' gotta love all that uncompensated research time. Give one of us a complicated one of a kind problem and we go to the ends of the spectrum to find and solve it. When all is over, in go the T87's or they find some "Expert" to sell them some overpriced product, totally unsuitable to the application, and all is never well.
@ March 22, 2013 5:11 PM in finned tube convectors with modconThat's going along with my conception of a really bad idea.
What were they thinking?
As far as a PDF, copy and paste the link to the note, NOT the open PDF.
@ March 22, 2013 5:06 PM in Off-Season Savings?How much?
A lot. A lot more depending on the situation.
Depending on the frequency of the "Retreats", I would drain the whole mess and set it up so that they could use what they needed, when they need it. It is too easy to drain buildings if they are set up properly. And turn it back on.
There LP gas bill must be horrible. The savings will usually pay for themselves if the buildings are drained. If you have 4 buildings that you leave on and you usually only use 2 infrequently, it's a waste of money. The camp must be in a cold freezing climate. One freeze up with property damage will wipe out any savings by not draining the buildings.
@ March 22, 2013 2:52 PM in Indirect DHW tank Delta T?Somehow, I'm nut understanding your goal of Delta T.
The only heating systems I have been able to gauge Delta T is one where I put Tridicator gauges on the supply and the return, between the circulator. With the high limit set to 180 degrees and the differential set at 20 degrees, I could watch the water flow through the boiler and zone and measure the head pressure. The difference in pressure going out and coming back. Then, I watch the temperature going out (Supply) and the return. The boiler would shut off around 189 degrees but keep climbing as the return was dropping and rising. When the supply started temperature started dropping, the return would be rising. The return would start to fall after the burner came back on around the temperature that gave somewhere near the 20 degree mark. But the spread between the two was always near 20 degrees. To me, that is a Delta T.
When the manufacturer of a indirect calls for a 65 degree Delta T, aren't they figuring 55 degree incoming and heating to 120 degrees? 65 Degree Delta T? That's when the cold water is flowing. If and when the water flow/demand stops, the circulator is pumping whatever temperature the water is that is in the tank and how much you are trying to raise it. The closer you get to the limit set, the closer you get to the Delta T. So, how are you measuring it?
Some seem to swap circulators like little kids swapping toys in the toy box. Who's paying for that?
Only God and engineers work in a perfect world. I'm not either. I work with what I get.
If you had a 100,000 BTU boiler with 5 series loops at 20,000 each, you designed for a 20 degree Delta T, with a 180 degree design temperature, and you turned on all five zones, and you got your 20 degrees, good on you. Have 4 zones satisfied, and you have 100,000 BTU's going into a 20,000 circuit with the same circulator. 20 degree Delta T?
I had a call, cold. There was not a big drop between the supply and return. After I sucked out all the animal hair and dander and dust from the top of the fin tube, and moved stuff from in front of the baseboard, the return temperature went way down.
@ March 22, 2013 2:10 PM in mixing valve issuesDoes the burner or heat generating source start shortly after you turn on the hot water?
What kind of appliance is providing the heat input? Gas or oil?
If oil, what are the control settings set at?
The coil may be dirty but the element in the mixer may be burned out because the instructions show that it MUST be installed 8" to 12" BELOW the cold water inlet to the coil to stop heat circulation and burning out the element in the valve. If the valve element is broken, it can by-pass the coil altogether and let a minimal amount of hot water through the defective valve.
Need more information.
@ March 22, 2013 12:09 PM in finned tube convectors with modconWhat would ever posses someone to put a TRV on the floor of a CI baseboard unit that was originally set up with ODR, and think that it would control the temperature of a room? A control temperature that is 48" to 60" above the TRV?
If you encounter one of these misthought disasters, you will end up like I did. You are a fool and incompetent because you can't make something work that flies in the face of Physics.
As a carpenter, 50 years ago, I worked on such a building as you describe, that had ODR with true reverse return and the mains in the first floor ceiling. So, all first floor baseboards were on a slab and down fed. There were zone valves in the ceilings to help control temperatures against South side solar gain. Because people insisted on putting their desks against the Weil-McLain cast iron baseboards, the heating didn't work that well. No one understood the re-set capabilities, and a "Expert" came in and installed early versions of TRV's. Ones they made a special tool to get the bad elements out IF THERE WASN'T WATER IN IT!!. Being down-fed, and no draining capabilities, you can just imagine. Because the heat didn't work well, they replaced the boiler. The heat still didn't work so they changed the boiler again. I changed the boiler and told them that they needed to get rid of the TRV's or make sure that they were wide open and run the system on the Tekmar ODR controller I had installed. Well, the TRV;s were continuously futzed with and I was considered not competent to have made the building warm.
Whomever put those TRV's on the floor has taken the opportunity to make you look like a fool. Would you install a T-87 or equivalent thermostat on the floor? Would you install it on the ceiling? I thought that thermostats were to control the space level that was being controlled.
Starting to feel burned out after spending years of fixing others stupid mistakes.
Oh yeah, and they look so nice with the enclosures off. Until someone else finds the covers and puts them back on. If they will fit. Now, you have a nice little hot house for the TRV to live in.
@ March 21, 2013 6:35 PM in Water service freezingI look at this problem differently but there are "considerations".
You could install heat traces but you need to dig it up to install the wires. I understand that the problem is in an area where there is a ledge issue so you can't get the pipe deep enough. Where the ledge isn't a problem, and it is deep, the ground is well above 32 degrees. If you have a good snow pack, or this is not a shaded area, it won't freeze. If the house is near the problem area, run a poly line from the house to the far side of the bad area and connect it to the main with a Corporation Cock, connect it with a pump and circulate the water when the water temperature goes below a set point. The flowing water will provide enough BTU's or warmer cold water that the freezing will not occur. You can also rig a electric solenoid as a "Dump Valve if the water gets too close to 32 degrees. The warmer water from the water system will keep the water flowing and stop freezing. When you run the water in the house, if the water hurts your hand, it's going to freeze. Ice water in a lakes is 32 degrees and COLD.
It won't matter how much you try to put insulation around the mess. Insulation only slows down the rate of heat gain or loss. I've had freeze-ups where you had to rip the insulation off to thaw the pipes. The pipes froze when the cold worked through the insulation and got to the insulated pipes.
@ March 21, 2013 6:14 PM in air on domestic side?Maybe you have seen that but I haven't. First of all, a Watts 1156F PRV has a check valve in it. So, if the valve works, it is a check valve. Then the 9D has TWO checks. To protect against the check failing in the 1156F.
There was a discussion recently that said that the manufacturers don't want water boiler feed valves "ON". because of the potential for flooding. I have quite a few houses that have hydronic heat that is left on for the winter. I drain the water but leave the boiler running. This winter, with the water drained, the heat went off at the end of December and the heat circulator ran until the end of February with no breakage of pipes and no leakage from the 9D. The caretaker was in Florida.
I was told by a boiler inspector that I should take off a backflow from a boiler because it could syphon all the water out of the (steam) boiler. The valve was installed 12" OVER the top of the boiler.
Perhaps this subject is approaching a Urban Legend.
@ March 21, 2013 6:03 PM in Radiators piped in series.........Geez, it's hard enough to keep the temperature "close" between the first baseboard and the last one on a copper fin tube. Then, you want to try it with radiators?
Just don't ever put the thermostat in the room with the last radiator. The first room will need the windows open.
@ March 21, 2013 5:57 PM in Questions after new furnace installationIm Massachusetts, I think that all new heating duct must be insulated.
There must have been a sale on 50# boxes of 1" screws.
@ March 21, 2013 5:53 PM in gastite fittingsYou know that you need the manufacturers certification for each type.brand to purchase and install it?
You know that you can't swap fittings with fittings?
WardFlex and TiteFlex tube is not interchangeable with each others fittings.
The spacings of the concentric's are unique to each manufacturer.
Leaks can occur when using the wrong fittings on the tube.
I always liked TiteFlex the best. It held on the best. The supplier I buy from went from TiteFlex to TracPipe because of the "CounterStrike" tube.
You absolutely can not interchange those two tubes. Where you can really have a problem is when you try to tie in to existing CSST systems. If you don't have the proper fittings for the existing CSST, you can't connect it.
@ March 20, 2013 8:54 PM in Backflow preventer with ventIf there is a leak through the back-flow, like it is leaking out of the boiler, it is supposed to leak out of the vent hold. The instructions, like T&PR valves say to pipe the overflow to a safe location.
There was a discussion here of on another forum where the discussion was that you aren't supposed to leave the fill valve to a boiler open, that it should be left off. That came from B&G. That they won't be responsible for water damage if a fill valve is left open.
@ March 20, 2013 6:54 PM in Weil-McLain won't heatSounds like a Warm Air "Furnace" with a broken belt or motor ans no air flow.
@ March 20, 2013 6:51 PM in Need help with Slant/Fin input"NUTS" equal Horse Power.
When you hit the power switch and start the engine(s) in the airplane, the engine runs until you turn it off. When you need power, you open the throttle and give it more gas to get more "Nuts" out of the motor. Consider the motor the circulator. It is always running to effect the load. You can keep the prop in the green power range but you don't always need power to do it. When you are climbing, you need more power. The hotter water in the system is the power. When you level off, you don't need the same power. You can keep the RPM's the same, but you don't use as much fuel. Close off the air and the EGT goes up but RPM's might go down. So, you adjust.
Your Mod Con does this autiomatically by changing the water temperature. Instead of a throttle, it has a high limit switch. If the power requirements need less power, but the settings don't change, you get overspeed. Bigger bite (higher load) lower RPM's.
When the OAT goes down, the load on a heating system goes up. You need more energy. When the OAT goes up, you need less energy.
Some here that aren't in the know, seem to loose it when they hear their burner stop and start. Ignore it. When you are driving your car down the highway, even if you put the throttle on cruise control, the throttle is going up and down all the time. That's normal.
Recip engines are limited in that their maxmum HP is at the top of their power band. Turbines don't have that problem. They have huge amounts of escess power throughout their power band.
Here's another example. Gas hot air baloons. They are always hitting the gas valve to keep it up The circulator is like the engine. It delivers the power. The engine (burner) keeps the power available.
I have 5 zones of FWH heat in my 2,700+ house. If only one zone is calling, the burner cycles constantly. But if all zones are calling, and it is cold out, it may run for hours without stopping.
If your circulator is coming on and off all the time, that's another issue. If the circulator keeps running and the burner is cycling, it's normal.
@ March 20, 2013 6:18 PM in Radiators piped in series.........Just because someone piped it like that doesn't mean that it is right or they knew what they were doing.
Hydronic hot water heating is extremely forgiving.
But like that little boy in the poem, "When he was good, he was very, very good. But when he was bad, he was AWFUL".