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icesailor

icesailor

Joined on September 13, 2010

Last Post on August 31, 2014

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Photo:

@ August 23, 2014 11:25 AM in Hot water baseboard heater too big for room

Post a photo of the offending heater. Depending on what it is, there are ways.

Offsets:

@ August 23, 2014 11:22 AM in Offsets in pipes between floors?

A 45 degree offset takes up less room that two 90 degree ells, and has far less resistance.
All fittings have a resistance valve listed as equal to feet of pipe. 90's are far more than a 45 degree ell. 90's add more resistance.

Return Duct leakage:

@ August 22, 2014 10:22 AM in condensate drain ?

There can also be an issue of duct leakage on the return (negative pressure) in unconfined spaces. Like attics or damp crawl spaces. The one piece of return I see doesn't have any tape seal on it. You can also have a serious infiltration problem into unconditioned spaces which has a high heat and humidity ratio. Like Florida attics with attic ventilation.
That's an impressive amount of water. The only time I have ever seen pans like that were from long pan drains that had pitch issues. Once because an insulator knocked pitch blocks down and the drain had a sag. It doesn't appear that this is your case.
I plumbed a house for a well known person. They had two AC systems. One for the second floor and one for the first. They had a very large open stairway to the first floor. The second floor had massive cathedral ceilings. The second floor was VERY hot, no matter what. The first floor was around 60 degrees even though the thermostat was set at 75 or below. The cold air from the second floor was coming down the stairway. They had French doors across the entire Southwest side of the house. The prevailing winds in the Summer are from the Southwest. Hot and humid. Because it was cooler outside than it was on the second floor, they opened all the French doors to the outside to keep the second floor cooler. You needed a sweater to stay downstairs. I noticed that the second floor drains were draining constantly and had puddles on the ground. The first floor AH's didn't run at all.

The Cooler man said it was normal and always done that way.

EDR's:

@ August 22, 2014 9:58 AM in Should we use new steam boiler for hot water heating?

Is the existing radiator load measurement 585 EDR? Or is that what you think you need because of the reduced heat loss in the building due to improvements?
Those old dead guys were usually so tight that they creaked when they walked. They spent someone else's money like it was their own, they didn't.  I'm just wondering why they put a more expensive 750 Sq. Ft boiler where a smaller and cheaper one would have done. It is said that unexpected things can happen when you fire a smaller steam boiler into a system that needs a bigger one.
Just asking.

standing water:

@ August 22, 2014 12:15 AM in condensate drain ?

That's why I think you have another issue. I've never seen a pan with that amount of water in it. If you haven't seen any other HX'ers of that brand full of water, then I doubt it is the problem. Where the drain runs under the unit, are you sure that it is pitching properly where you can't see it? If the water level in the pan ia completely covering the outlet drain hole, and it isn't pouring out of the end of the drain, something is obstructing it. Whatever is in there, you're going to be surprised when you get it out and what it is. I'll bet there's some interesting science projects inside that drain.
Those manufactured PVC running traps can be a problem.
Blow the line out from the pan with air. See what comes out. It should drain easily. If it doesn't, there's a problem.
Does the coil just sit on the plastic waste pan? I can't imagine putting bolts through the pan to hold it worm. It might leak. Maybe it isn't seated on rails. If you have another one like it in your customer base, go look at it.

Wrenches:

@ August 21, 2014 11:58 PM in Not the Usual Failure

So, "Stewart" is the left hand wrench. The Skuld wrench is the right hand one.
You always use two wrenches. One goes on the left side and the other on the right side.

Why?:

@ August 21, 2014 11:44 PM in New Boiler Radiant & Baseboard Taco Controls Question HELP!

Why on god's green earth did you buy a state of the art heating system, with all the toots and whistles.  And but a CGA boiler in it? If you wanted to save money, you should have just put in baseboard and some zone valves.
At least a boiler with sealed combustion and some efficiency.
A Weil McLain GV 90+ would give you higher efficiency, has sealed combustion, is bomb proof, and is internally piped to protect the boiler from condensation damage. A CGA-3 is 84% on a good day.

Your system will be like building a F-18 fighter jet and hanging a prop on the front, powered by rubber band bungee cords.

Difference:

@ August 21, 2014 3:41 PM in Not the Usual Failure

One's for the left side and the other is for the right side.

Good Eyes:

@ August 21, 2014 3:39 PM in Not the Usual Failure

If I did that, you would have noticed it too.
Its because it is the only thing in the whole piping array that isn't plumb and square to the rest of the piping. Some unknowing person off the street will see it instantly. They don't know what's wrong, just that something isn't right.

Parallel measurements and the Square Root of 2 (1.414) are a pipefitters best friends.

De-Rate AC:

@ August 21, 2014 3:30 PM in Hydronic Baseboard Altitude Derate?

In that case, how much do you de-rate an AC unit? Same type of HX.

Additionally,

@ August 21, 2014 3:26 PM in condensate drain ?

Additionally, if the end of the condensate drain goes in to a floor drain or any type of receptor where there is standing water in it, and the condensate drain is inserted into the water seal, it will act like it is double trapped. It needs a air break or air gap to drain properly. I've seen where someone put a piece of rubber drain hose into a icemaker drain pump and the hose was inserted too far in and was in water. They overflowed. You need the free flow of air.
Don't futz with Mother Nature. She has big teeth to bite you with.

Vented Drains:

@ August 21, 2014 3:20 PM in condensate drain ?

There's a problem with that drain. I don't have the I/O manual but from a plumbing standpoint, it could be better.
There is a tee on the bottom horizontal drain with a cap on it. The cap needs to be off to let air in.
In plumbing, we consider that an indirect waste and it needs a free flow of air from the upper part where it comes through the cabinet and drain pan until it goes in to the trap. Which must be below because I don't see it. If there is some sort of trap arrangement inside the cabinet, and another that is below and I can't see, then it is double trapped and will never drain properly. With ice machines, you need a vertical rising vent that is at least one pipe size larger than the size of the drain through the cabinet to vent the line.
My old AC Air Handler had a tee with a short open riser on the vertical at the top. The new one has the same set up but it is plugged with a safety switch to stop the unit if the drain plugs and backs up. The problem is that there is at least 30' of I" PVC under the slab and who knows how well it pitches. But that doesn't matter because instead of turning the outside ell down, it is turned up with two more ells to get the drain higher from ground level. Which makes the whole 30+ feet part of a trap. They constantly plug up. You can suck 2+ gallons of water out of the drain. That would be normal. I would say that it is either double trapped or not pitched enough. You need to find a way to blow air through the waste line and give it venting. Its not my trade but I've never seen a full pan like that that didn't have a drain issue. And it had nothing to do with the pan. Usually, they only have enough water in the pan to come up to the bottom of the drain hole. If it gets higher, the drain is plugged. Take that cap off on the bottom. See if it is full of water. There shouldn't be any water in any of those drains.

CFIG

@ August 21, 2014 2:49 PM in legends of the south pole

Also known as CFIG. Controlled Flight Into Ground.
And you don't have to be flying in clouds. As long as the temperature, humidity and dew point align in the proper manner, you can be toast. Even with the prop de-icers working, the sound of ice flying off the props and hitting the side of the airplane, can make you feel like you haven't been a good enough person yet.

Musty Water:

@ August 21, 2014 2:44 PM in quick odor in sinks/showers

Do you have a private water system (Well) or are you on a public/municipal water system?
If you are on a public system, are you at the end of the system?
Does it smell "Musty" like sweaty socks or like rotten eggs?
It all makes a difference.

Leak Detecting:

@ August 21, 2014 11:21 AM in gas piping.

 ""Use dish soap mixed with some water. ""
There are available commercial liquid leak detecting products that are FAR better than dish soap and water. Some make great big bubbles in a fraction of the time that dish soap will make little tiny bubbles.
Be sure to wipe it all of so it doesn't leave the work looking like a Hackaroo piped it when all the bare steep parts get covered in rust.

It's true:

@ August 21, 2014 10:19 AM in legends of the south pole

It's true. Water under certain conditions, doesn't freeze until as low as -40. And it can freeze as high as 39+ degrees.  But it ALWAYS melts at 32 degrees.
Although frozen water/ice melts at 32 degrees, water, in the form of pure water can freeze at 32+F to as low as -40. It has to do with "Pure Water" as like distilled water. There are no solids in the water.
There is moisture in the form of evaporated water that becomes pure when it evaporates. At 30,000', there is moisture but it is invisible. Not until the moisture can gather on a speck of dust, can the water vapor convert and freeze, forming clouds. Its called "Super-Cooled Water Vapor".
A good common example of the phenomenon is if or when you put a bottle of beer of bottled water in the freezer to chill it and you forget it. And you remember it before it becomes solid. You pull out the bottle and see that it is still liquid. But, if the conditions are right, because you have disturbed the tranquility of the water in the bottle, you might see a cloud form (in the form of slush) at the top of the bottle and slowly descend to the bottom. The contents of the bottle have turned to slush. We who lived in The North, might see it commonly if we leave bottled water bottles in a truck outside at night on below 32 degree weather. It is common on nights when it is clear and you get radiational cooling.The water doesn't freeze until the bottle is agitated.
When you see aircraft passing overhead and they leave contrails behind, it is the soot from burning hydrocarbon fuels that is reacting with the water vapor present and the exhaust gasses that form the Contrails or clouds. That's the theory behind "Cloud Seeding" to make rain. If you put enough dust or debris into the atmosphere, and enough moisture gathers on the dust, it becomes too heavy and finally falls in the form of rain.
If I put bottled water or flavored water in the very back of my refrigerator for long periods of time, I might get one out and I can watch the phase change. If I catch it right. I can make it happen in the freezer. Beer does it when it is shaken or moved because it is reacting to the CO2 in the beer. Beer does it just as well as water. Watch for it.
Super Cooled water vapor does this on aircraft surfaces where water can freeze as high as 39+ degrees because of the cooling effect of air moving over a surface in a vacuum, which lowers the temperature of the water vapor and it sticks to the surfaces it can find. Like wings and propellers.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111123133123.htm

Elevations:

@ August 20, 2014 8:25 PM in Hydronic Baseboard Altitude Derate?

I understand how it works taking lower atmospheric pressures into gas mixers or blowers.
I don't quite see how much changes when you run 160 degree water through a fin tube and there will be any appreciable difference in the incoming volume of air and the volume coming out or the velocity of the air.

Anal Tool Weenies:

@ August 20, 2014 4:45 PM in Altitude and Deration

Well, I guess that if you are a really anal tool weenie, you'd be going out and buying a LP gas meter (they make them) so you could clock LP gas.
Progress, not perfection.

Necessity is the Mother on Invention. I had to repair and re-pipe an improperly installed 2: gas train on a 3 million BTU steam boiler. I didn't really want to test my work with live LP gas, so I took a LP 12" gas regulator, adapted it to air and connected it to Press-Taps with a blue refrigeration hose. Did wonders for my stress levels. No leaks.

Air Movement:

@ August 20, 2014 4:39 PM in Oil fired flue without barometric damper?

It may appear that there is no air movement in that location, but rest assured, there is far more than you think. It only takes a 7.5 degree in temperature to cause circulation in a pipe or container. It is even less with air.
Static (still) air has more pressure than flowing air. Air is always moving. Because the Earth is moving while spinning.
Is that boiler bull headed into the exhaust vent of the water heater? That is very wrong, though most of us have done it. It needs to connect with a Wye. When the water heater is running, and it is connected with a Bull Headed Tee, the draft can be completely blocked to the branch/boiler. It can really make a difference.
If you're a big guy that can make small single handed sailboats (like Lasers) go fast in light air, you come to understand and appreciate how fickle the wind Gods are. Iceboats go even faster in little to no air by running and pushing them and jumping in. They go fast on apparent wind speed alone.
If it is a new and tight house, the problem can become worse. One of those draft thingy's by Tjernlund can be a big help.

Fine Design:

@ August 20, 2014 4:20 PM in condensate drain ?

What does that do to the ability of the coil to remove moisture from the conditioned air?

Have you ever seen anything like that before with that manufacturer? Did someone perhaps not read the installation instructions for draining the pan?
Dis it need an evaporative heater to get rid of that like walk in coolers?

Deration:

@ August 20, 2014 4:15 PM in Hydronic Baseboard Altitude Derate?

I guess I see the concept, I'll have to get my mind around it.
Like an aircraft flying at 5,000 feet sees less air resistance than it does at sea level. Because the air le less dense and there are less air molecules to heat at 5,000;. The same would then apply to warm air or air conditioning.
Interesting thought.

Buckets:

@ August 20, 2014 2:05 PM in Weil McLain VHE 5

I've drained more than one VHE-5 into a 5 gallon bucket and never had a bucket overflow.
I would have suggested 3+ gallons.
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