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icesailor

icesailor

Joined on September 13, 2010

Last Post on July 29, 2014

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PVP 40 F Water Heater:

@ July 13, 2014 6:46 PM in Ruud 40gl Water Heater Power Vent Error Code?

They didn't leave the owner/service manual with the water heater when it was installed? How quaint of them.
This might be the missing manual.
The "code" you describe isn't listed. There really isn't anything that owners can do for it. What you describe usually means a new brain/control.

http://cdn.globalimageserver.com/fetchdocument-ru.aspx?name=power-vent-power-vent-use-and-care-manual

Unintended Consequences:

@ July 13, 2014 6:22 PM in Not Cool:

First of all, I really want to thank any and all of you that have taken the time to respond. It is deeply appreciated.
I found this about the Sensible heat ratio,

http://seedengr.com/Making%20the%20Sensible%20Heat%20Ratio%20of%20Air%20Conditioning%20Equipment%20with%20Building%20Load.pdf
X
More firmly than ever do believe that anything that someone tries to do better, the laws of unintended consequences will come to play in your sand box. That no good deed goes unpunished.
So, it seems that if you go from an older, less efficient AC unit to a better and more efficient unit, AND YOU DON"T CAREFULLY UNDERSTABD WHAT CAN HAPPEN, you might want to put in the next size larger. If you have a 3 ton unit, you might need a 4 ton unit to get the same performance.
Or, you make the building loss smaller. The stories I can tell. The people dying in cellars in New England with portable de-humidifiers that had to open the windows because it was so hot and humid so they had to open the windows to cool off. I'd tell them to put in a Mini-Split. You have no idea how many Mini-Splits I sold for others to solve humidity problems. Installed by people that knew as professionals, far less than I did as someone that isn't in that trade.
Getting back to my problem, so I now have a technically smaller system than I did before. So, I either change the system, or decrease the cooling load. Which can be done by increasing the insulation and heat gain through the ceiling. Easy to do. If you really want to know that SHR ratio, you could use Miami and Atlanta as a comparison. I'm closer to Miami than Atlanta so it gives you something. It says in the article that the standard comfort level for cooling is 75 degrees. We're perfectly comfortable with 79/78 degrees.  
Plenum's: The old AH had a 16" X 20" opening. The new one has a 16" X 16" opening.
Oh ship. When they made the new supply plenum to replace the two piece  old one (part from 1982 the other part from 1996) they reduced it on one side by 5". So, now it is 21" on one side but 10" +/- on the other. Less the inside dimensions. Like the new common practice of running 1/2 CTS PEX (5/8" OD, 3/8" ID) in place of 1/2" nom. Cop Tube (5/8" OD, 1/2" ID). I think they made the box to match the original from 1982 that they had added on to in 1996.
Moisture goes to dryness and moisture also goes to coldness. The vapor barrier is supposed to be on the warn side of the equation, in the prevalent season. If the moisture gets into the wall it can condense in the wall.
(( Moisture goes to dryness and moisture also goes to coldness. The vapor barrier is supposed to be on the warn side of the equation, in the prevalent season. If the moisture gets into the wall it can condense in the wall))
And a adult beverage in a glass with ice condenses water on the glass unless you use one of those Kozee things.

So, in Florida, the faced/vapor barrier side of batt insulation should face the outside because the outside is warmer than the inside. The inside being cooler (because of AC) can cause mildew growth on the back of the sheetrock or the back side of the fiberglass insulation. In the North, the mold in on the plywood.
I guess I'll have to find someone that does blown insulation in in July. Not me. I'm so rickety that I have visions of me falling through the ceiling when I tip over.
(long) Sigh, Mother will not be happy. The other one was working fine. Just the moisture on the sheetrock. From more airflow in the attic for ventilation. And I still have moisture on the sheetrock.

Sunrocket:

@ July 13, 2014 3:05 PM in Anyone else getting unwanted calls from Angie's List?

Sunrocket?
I get junk calls from them all the time. Have you been trying to call me? The reason you haven't gotten through is because if I see your name, "Sunrocket" on the Caller ID window, I never pick it up.

Airheads revenge:

@ July 13, 2014 1:32 PM in am i hallucinating or did there used to be a subforum for forced-air furnaces

I'm not an Airhead, but a dedicated, dyed in the wool Wethead..
I've always considered air systems as a form of FM, Freaking Magic. Because I see old systems, balanced with a supply and return in each and every room, to some old ones where there was a supply here and there and you left the cellar door open because there was no back for the return on the furnaces. Then, there are all the modern ones I used to see with a supply in every room in a two story house, zoned, with a common return at the front hall over the furnace in the cellar. Then, there is The Octopus.
I read once that it takes bigger ducts to run scorched air to supply heating for a building, but if you designed it for cooling only, they would be smaller. How do you figure that in?
I also look at air systems like a hydronic system that pumps all the supply water into a big pool when it is done going through the heat emitters.  Once in the pool, another pump has to pump it back to the energy source. If the return pump is smaller than the water going into the pool, it will overflow. Unless it is a closed pool. Then the pressure goes up. Or something.
Increasing fan/air speed doesn't usually solve a problem. But a free flow with little restriction can go a long way. In a closed air system, you're really depending on the vacuum of the fan, to "Pull" the air back. If you have a leaky air system and the ducts are oversized, you have a real problem getting balanced circulation.
You always need a bigger pump if your boat has a bigger leak.
Kind of like raising the pressure in a steam system. Raising the pressure just raises the temperature. Why do vacuum systems work so well when they are tight and have no restrictions?
Just my thoughts. Worthless at best.

Photo's & Sizes:Unintended consequences.

@ July 13, 2014 12:49 PM in Not Cool:

I don't have a camera that I can take pictures with and post them. My old camera was stolen.
As far as the outlet size, it is full size as far as it can go into the attic space between the reducer at the ceiling, and between a bottom truss chord. Without measuring it, I could estimate that it might be 4' from the top of the unit to the top of the plenum box in the attic where the take-offs occur. Including the reducer.
But I think we have figured out the problems. And like you said, maybe they were here all along. How much cooling can a 1200 sq. ft. building with 8' ceilings need?
3 tons equals 36,000 BTU's? Granted, there isn't a double paned window in the whole entire house. The front faces North, the side faces West. The East is a common occupied wall. The attic is what it is.
When we bought the place, it looked fine. No peeling paint, the place looked well taken care of by an old retired Jewish widow. Who drove a car until she was 92 and sold it to us so she could move in to an assisted living facility. 3 or 4 years ago, they replaced the roofs. The roof/attic ventilation was provided by full length soffit vents on the overhangs and 4" round/square vents through the plywood a few feet below the ridge. So, all the ventilation of the hot air came from the two or 3 square roof ventilators. Now, they have full length pubic hair ridge vents to help with ventilation and cooler attics. Which I doubt are any cooler. You now have many times the amount of air flow of hot moist air. HOT, MOIST AIR!!!. So, the entire place except for the two bathrooms (small) have "pop-corn" ceilings. Sprayed on to a latex primed Sheetrock. The primer is probably some of that Spec(ulative) grade builder grade white primer that they get in 55 gallon drums. The whole place was sprayed with the stuff with an airless sprayed. Even the edges of the concrete floors. Before I tiled the floors (ceramic tile), I only had to spray it with Krud Kutter and scrape it with 3" sheet rock trowel. Wipe up the rest with warm water and a sponge. The kitchen was the first place I tackled. They had wallpapered the walls and ceiling with Vinyl wallpaper. The ceiling was falling off. It wasn't like that when we bought it. The quality primer was everywhere. The wallpaper came off the ceiling in sheets once I ripped the vinyl off. Spray the primer and It came off with a sponge and a scraper. The ceiling was quite hot during the day. I replaced the entire ceiling with a white 1/4" PVC  beaded board that I glued and nailed to the Sheetrock. End of that ceiling peeling. I painted the two bathroom ceilings that were painted with minor peeling here and there. It wasn't peeling in 2005.
Modern/new vinyl paint has a vapor barrier in it, they claim. That garbage Contractor primer doesn't and nor does the paint that holds the "Pop-Corn" particles in place. After 30+ years, it looks like it was sprayed yesterday. But, if heat flows to cold, and dampness flows to dryness, how much moisture is migrating through the Sheetrock and adding to the moisture in the room? Probably a lot. And the symptom is the condensation on the coldest ceiling registers, closest to the Air Handler. And brought on by the increased new airflow in the attic airspace with more hot moist air that is supposed to keep the attic space cooler. I'll bet that if I had a way to measure moisture, the moisture content 2" down from the ceiling, it is much higher that 12" down. Ever see a building after a fire and the smoke patterns on walls and ceilings?
What I need is a whole lot more insulation on the ceiling of the attic.
I asked the AC guy if his company had anyone that they worked with that did insulation? He said no, they never got involved in that kind of thing. REALLY.
So, you sell someone new equipment so they can save money with the efficiency, and it still uses the same amount of energy? The customers think you are a pirate. Tell them about tightening up the house AND changing the equipment, and they save big time. And you are a hero. AND, you sold new equipment. They will never tell you that they didn't save anything. They WILL when you get them to do tightening up expenditures that make it look like you really fixed them up. If they chose not to tighten up, and the cost of operation doesn't go down (like mine hasn't), you have something to blame it on. According to my thermometer, the humidity is 47%. According to my Honeywell Humidistat, it is around 54%. NOAA says that the RH ay PBIA is 63% and the Dew Point is 74 degrees. 5 miles away.

If I am at design limit, what do I do to lower/raise the limit? Cut down on heat loss/gain. I can't change windows and doors. Or insulation in stucco walls, But I can add to attics.
Of interest to me is, why might a 10 SEER cool better than a 14 SEER 3 ton unit? They are both supposed to put out the same amount of cooling energy.
I'm teachable.

Knowledgable Customers:

@ July 13, 2014 11:37 AM in Not Cool:

I've found that to be a problem. We have a 2001 BMW 325XI AWD wagon with 150,000+ miles and it looks almost new. We bought it new in 2001. It recently developed an odd noise in the rear drivetrain that only seldom happened under odd circumstances. You and I know that those are the hardest types of problems to solve if they don't happen repeatedly. "It makes a clunk when you start off but only certain ways and not always". Yeah, right. The large BMW dealer is known for their refusal to give customers a jar of Vaseline and a pair of jeans with a hole in the back. Their solution to a problem situation is to sell you a new car and sell yours to someone who doesn't know there is a problem. We take it to be serviced and repaired to a local service guy that does well and well by us. That didn't work. So I found some person who repaired all kinds of foreign cars. All his mechanics had trained with the top new exotic car dealerships and moved on the better paying shops. The owner started the business from scratch and it was a family affair now. I brought it to him and told him what was up. I immediately felt pull back because I knew more about things that his average wealthy customer (which I am not). But I could be a potential PITA.
Fast Forward to: I took an Amigo mechanic for a 5 mile ride and of course, not once did it happen. I mentioned that I had a 1966 Ford Bronco that had a limited slip differential and after I drove it 5 or 10 miles and it got hot, when I went around a corner, it would "Hop" around the corner when turning. The dealers guys nicknamed me "Hoppy" behind my back because it wouldn't "hop" for them. Kind of like when I built my first house and the lights would dim occasionally in the evening, repetitively. The power company put recording Current Meters on the service. They named ne "Blinky" because the diming was almost like a blink. They gave me that name after I pointed that the "Blinks" could easily come between the dots on the recording meters. Kind of like why you don't use digital volt meters to look for quick spikes, you use an analog meter. The Amigo knew exactly what I was talking about because the BMW has the Posi unit in a transfer case and the Mercedes has theirs in the transmission tail shaft. They finally figured out that the clutches weren't being lubricated because someone had put the wrong gear oil in the case. Drive it 20 revolutions to the left and 20 revolutions to the right. Open the clutches and it lubricates the disks. Problem solved. After another hand wringing experience, and I had to just completely subjugate myself as an almost know nothing idiot, they took it for a ride themselves and sure enough, it DID do it. The transfer case was empty. Filled for a lifetime with a very small amount of expensive fluid. All is good. The work was excellent. My point is that you have to listen carefully. Especially when you know things that the other person doesn't. Talking things out (like done here) often leads to solutions. Or at least new ideas.
I'll have to start a new thread.

Maintenence:

@ July 13, 2014 10:52 AM in Not Cool:

Understand that it isn't really that the system is new, but replaced in kind. Some ducts were slightly increased but the idea was to replace 30 YO flex ducting with newer ducts. The two thingy's between were replaced. Knowing that Florida is the land of the cheap, and technical educations is for Liberal Yankees and retiring snow birds, these problems have probably been there for a time.

Units:

@ July 13, 2014 10:41 AM in Not Cool:

The AH is a GAF2A0A36M32SB. The number I gave you before must be a number for the instruction manual.
The Compressor unit is a 4TTB6036A.

I had all kinds of really cool and accurate temperature measuring devices that I left behind. I never thought that I would be needing or using them here.

Junk Calls:

@ July 12, 2014 10:09 PM in Anyone else getting unwanted calls from Angie's List?

I look at Caller ID. If it isn't someone I know, I still usually answer it unless it is someone really gross. But I pick up the phone. I say hello. I pause for a moment. If no answer, I hang up. The call was from a phone bank with a computer call. If I have to wait for someone to answer the light, they're too late. If it was important, they'll call back.

Delta's

@ July 12, 2014 10:00 PM in Not Cool:

Its hard not to intimidate people when you know about their trade. I try to keep to myself. This guy and his company don't make me feel like when I have gone to some dentists down here. Opening my mouth is like opening my wallet. And they all want to grab what's there. For example, in the world which I worked in, if someone asked me about R-8 flex duct and I always used R-6, I would have been on that like stink on horse ship. I'd be giving a price for the entire job in R-6, and an additional increase amount for the R-8. You already know what you need and it isn't going to take you any longer to install it. Like taking Manna from Heaven. Not in Florida. We don't do that. Why be in business if you don't want to get every dime someone is willing to spend.
Last October, when I had it serviced, I knew nothing about AC. He was checking pressures and he mentioned a 10 degree Delta T. We discussed that up North, we use a 20 degree Delta T as a target. I had no idea that you could tell the temperatures by the pressures on the gauges. Knock me in the head. I asked him yesterday, "So, is it the purple scale or the green scale you're reading?" Purple. Says he. He said the pressures were OK. 7 years ago, it wasn't working properly and someone came recommended by someone. My wife called the company. They sent someone in a beater truck. The driver looked as beat up as his truck. Image is everything. It was low on gas. He told me I had a leak but he couldn't find one. That I needed to replace the lines. They went under the floor, like all the other 240 units do. We left two days later for MA and he was supposed to come and replace the leaking line. He never came back to change them.  It hasn't leaked a drop in 7 years and is still running on the same line set.
The Rheem had a lot more room inside the blower housing. The blower was all metal and the housing. This one is all extruded plastic. I could see that it might need some breathing room.
There's a formula for how much louvres cut down on a size. Maybe I need to cut them all off. They are behind the 16" X 16" filter. I took all kinds of temperature measurements with my Multimeter but I discovered that one probe stopped working and the other is way off.

Refer heads?

@ July 12, 2014 9:31 PM in Not Cool:

ReferHeads? Don't they smoke the Kind Bud? As opposed to drinking the kind Bud.
"Reefer Madness". That campy old terror movie done in the 1930's by the tobacco companies. One hit and a week later, you were dead with a needle in your arm.

Air handler:

@ July 12, 2014 9:29 PM in Not Cool:

Well, I can't give you all the information you want, but maybe this will help.

The air handler is a Trane 18-GJ52D1-3 3 ton air handler. They came together. I doubt that the compressor is part of the problem. The installation for the air handler shows that for a vertical installation etc, and heights above electric water heaters etc, that you can use side entrances for the return. There isn't any information. It faces a metal louvered door. They must have bought a kit to convert it to a side inlet. There is a bottom metal plate that covers the bottom, sealing it off. There is a side louvered plate that takes the place of the lower blower cover panel. It has a tray to put a filter in and a clip to hold in the filter. I know that plenums are important. There was no kind of plenum before, and none now. Before the filter was on the bottom. Now it is on the side. The blower assembly is much wider and fatter on the front side against the filter and there isn't a lot of clearance between the left side and the sound insulation.
It seems like it is a air flow problem and it isn't removing moisture like it could. And bad airflow because there is enough moisture left in the air to condense on the cold surfaces of the grills. It doesn't do it on every grill, just the ones closest to the Air handler. And its not coming out of the vent.
Its not running 100% at the moment because there is some sort of motorized valve as part of the expansion valve and it stopped working yesterday. Which made a low pressure control drop out and it caused a fault, overheating the compressor outside. It is supposed to be running wide open like the valve is wide open. Or so I was told. Before, the liquid and vapor line were not far apart in temperature, Now, the liquid line is the same but the vapor line is cold. Not freezing but cold. They are coming with a new part on Monday. That hasn't changed the long running times.
I've seen a lot of installs. This is a nice install and far better than the one they replaced. It sure sounds like a air flow restriction to me. I can't post photos since someone thought my camera was fanny pack and stole it to get the wallet. Which wasn't in there. I haven't replaced it yet.

Not Cool:

@ July 12, 2014 6:02 PM in Not Cool:

Be kind. I'm not an Airhead nor a chilled wet head. But I have questions.
Where I live now in Florida I bought in 2005. The AC was replaced in 1996 to replace something that was installed in 1982 with some sort of hot water recovery HP unit that had failed. Same usual slam it in system. Louvered door in a closet where the AC is, supply ducted to an unconfined attic space with flex duct. Someone lived here year around (from 1982) until we bought it in 2005. There were no signs of water damage to the ceilings around ceiling grills. If there had been, I would have noticed it. After a few years, I noticed a wet spot on the ceiling above and in front of the unit. I went up into the attic and wrapped it with more insulation and covered the duct work with more batt insulation. Which mostly stopped that. There was never any ceiling wet staining around the ceiling grills until last June (2013) when we moved here. I noticed the ceiling staining, but no worse where I had originally seen it. In other words, it wasn't leaking. At over 100 degrees the old unit would cycle on and off all day with the cooling at 78 or 77. We keep it at 79 mostly. Last Fall (October), I had it serviced. It was fine. I asked them about replacing the attic duct because of the wet spots, it was falling apart, it was 30 years old, and I wanted it upgraded. I asked them to use R-8 duct but they told me that no one around uses it and it had to be special ordered from the supply house. They used R-6 like everyone else. Turned out what I thought was R2 or R4 was actually R-6 anyway. They replaced all the flex board boxes with bigger, better and thicker ones.

While I have the money, and not wanting to face a expensive replacement 5 years down the line on a 15+ YO system, I asked them to replace it. They did a fine job. There was an issue with the new unit inside. The old unit had the intake on the bottom. Its above a water heater. The unit to replace the old one was a 10 SEER (or less from age) and the best they could give me was 14 SEER because of a height limitation through the door. I came up with using steel flat stock across the closet walls but the installer went with two pieces of hanger stock and put a cover plate and moved the intake/filter to the front where I assume it is also designed to go. It is much noisier from an airflow point than the old unit. The ceilings are staining. the unit never shuts off when the temperature is over 98 degrees OAT. It used to cycle at over 100 degrees with 77 degree inside air and not sweat. I get plenty of air from the ceiling registers, the wet isn't dripping out of the vents, it is forming on the metal in the room. It seems like there isn't enough air flow? There is much room for unrestricted air flow when the air enters from the side than would be from the bottom.

There's a lot of things that I could do but it isn't working like the old one. Yesterday, the compressor stopped for unrelated reasons. The installer came and got it going. I told him that the thing didn't work well at all, That my electric bill compared to last year with the old unit was half again as high per KWH, attributable to the AC. He said that it should go down to 75 degrees and cycle. It goes down to 79 and won't cycle. At 12:00 PM.Noon, it was 84 degrees out, and 82 in the house. I turned the thermostat to 79. The OAT went to just over 99 degrees. It has now dropped 94 degrees OAT. it went to 79 degrees after three hours and hasn't stopped running since.
What am I missing? Lack of heavy airflow to be moving air and drying it out? Is the big plastic fan cage in the well known manufacturers unit just not moving enough air? Is it too fat and restrictive in side the return box? I wish they had put in another Rheem unit. I'm suspicious of this. I know that WA/AC units like Plenums. A return plenum is out of the question. Every one of the 240 units in here is the same and they don't have plenums.
And my wife is none too pleased.
Any constructive thoughts? Any "tightening up" of the structure shouldn't figure in. Its just like a common boiler change. They don't understand the mechanics of heat loss, heat gain and the movement of moisture in Florida.
Is it true (like I was told) that in Florida, cold flows through the walls to get to the heat? Same with the moisture?

Angie's List:

@ July 12, 2014 4:09 PM in Anyone else getting unwanted calls from Angie's List?

Cold Calls from Angie's List are just from commission sales persons. Just like the calls you get for "Kops & Kids" or the Police Benevolent Associations.
Angie's List had their name bought and it is just a public repair service. Consumer's report they are not.
It cost big bucks to produce and air all those TV commercials.

Unintended deaths:

@ July 12, 2014 4:03 PM in Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

During one of the storms that hit my house (twice in 6 week), there was a retired State Trooper I knew who lived in Falmouth, MA. He was sleeping in a brass antique bed. The lightning  came through the house and electrocuted him, DEAD.
Don't sleep in brass beds during a lightning storm.
The #1 cause of all human death is birth.

Your Boiler?

@ July 12, 2014 3:51 PM in Identifying boiler capacity

This might be your boiler. If it is, here's the installation manual for it. On the last page of the manual, is the ratings for all models. If this isn't the correct one, go to the Weil-McLain website for boilers and click on "discontinued equipment".

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/products/discontinued/discontinued-boilers/eg-peg-egh-boiler/egpeg1egh2manual.pdf

Deathh comparisons:

@ July 12, 2014 12:07 AM in Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

Maybe I should have said that more people are killed in Texas after 10:00 PM at night by drunk drivers than are killed by lightning or Carbon Monoxide.
Its just what went through me in the moment. Texas is the place where a wealthy youth was DUI and hit and killed 4 people. He was found guilty in court but he got no jail time. He suffered from Afluenza. He grew up so wealthy that he would have had a hard time in jail.

Carried away:

@ July 11, 2014 10:30 AM in Bonding CSST:

 (( To eliminate any confusion , Bonding carries energy away from the system , Using the system as a pathway to Ground would be bad . There is no confusion. ))

But, is it possible that the bonding, can carry the energy to the system? That's what my question is. Like the other photo on the right. Taken with an imaging camera. Is a charge in the ground being gathered through the root system and going out condensed and hotter? Or is it the way it seems, the other way around.
From what I understand, if a quality lightning suppression company were to install a system in that house, a bonding jumper would have been installed in that location because of the danger of arc jumping from one material to the other. That's why they bond garage door tracks and metal downspouts.

Plastic:

@ July 11, 2014 10:20 AM in Bonding CSST:

I guess you don't realize how much time and energy it takes to drive a 10' ground rod into the ground.
I think that plumbers and heaters need to have as much understanding of electricity as the average electrician. We deal with it every day and don't always realize it. Your life can depend on it.

Bonded:

@ July 11, 2014 10:09 AM in Bonding CSST:

Like I said, someone asked me. I just posted the things I found.
For my experience with the issue in Massachusetts, it is up to a licensed electrician to ensure that the gas pipe bonding meets code. Even though Mass. electricians must do CEU's, and were up on bonding and grounding (there's a difference) when CSST came along, they acted like a small child given a new food to eat. They just couldn't comprehend a way to clamp the bonding wire to the CSST. Because no manufacturers made such a specific device. Massachusetts forbid the use of CSST for a period, because of lightning strikes and bonding. When the Omega-flex "Counterstrike" came out it finally was again approved but they left it up to local wiring inspectors to approve or not approve it. The wiring inspector in the town I worked in refused to approve it because of this bonding issue. He claimed that there was no specific clamp made to clamp on CSST. All the local electricians said the same thing. I blew up at one once and showed him how a standard electrical pipe clamp bonding clamp is clamped on the fitting and not the CSST tube. No matter. My wholesaler switched to the Counterstrike line. Through pressure, the WI finally relented. I don't know what or how the electricians bond the CSST tube systems. I'm a plumber. NOT an electrician.
Back in 1993 when I moved into my new house and it was hit twice in 6 weeks, I studied up on lightning. Someone gave me a bunch of stuff on it from somewhere that sold suppression equipment. They explained why "air terminals" are pointed, how positive charges and negative charged ions are everywhere (like big magnets) and that there are three types of lightning. Could to cloud, cloud to ground, and ground to cloud. Now, I only read about Cloud to cloud and cloud to ground. What happened to ground to cloud? Lightning is DC current. Like an arc welder. If you've ever been in a lightning storm, and the hair on your body starts to stand up, there's going to be a strike near-by. It least 4 times in my life, I have experienced that. With DC, the current flows from positive to negative. When my hair stood up, was the positive Ion charge going to go up near me or the negative one? When my Kohler K-181 8 HP thumper motor in my Gravely fires, the magnets on the flywheel create a charge which the coil increases and stores for a split second. As soon as the points close, the charge goes to ground through the spark plug and the charge jumps the gap and fires the cylinder. We know which way it goes. Does the charge come out of the ground first, blow up the meter and dissipate through the building bonding system or anything that has conductivity, collect itself and go back as a bolt?
I have personally seen where 4" PVC well casings with submersible pumps inside were struck and a hole was made in the plastic. If you take a piece of plate glass and shoot a BB at it, the side you hit will have a dot on the glass. But the inside will have a cone shaped piece missing out of the glass. When you strike a piece of concrete with a hammer, the force is cone shaped away from the local force. The well casings will have a small hole on the OUTSIDE, A bigger hole on the inside. And no burning on the casing. If the soil is fine enough, it will sift through the hole and ruin the pump. I tried to pull a pump after the building was hit and damaged. I had to get a back hoe to try to pull the pump. We ended up pulling the casing because sand and gravel had jammed it. That's how I found the hole. No one believed me until I showed them the evidence. Once I did, guys started to find LOTS of casings with holes in them. The electricity in the ground was after the wires in the casing to the pump and the panel. That particular one had a lightning arrestor/surge suppressor which blew the top off a PS104 pressure switch and blew the guts of the suppressor all over the cellar. Another part came in through the phone line and blew copper wire all over the panel. The charge continued through the house and went through a floor lamp, into the ceiling and blew the wooden shingles OUTWARDS as it left. The idea of air terminals and grounds in suppression systems is to give the charge the least amount of resistance to get to where it wants to go. I think that bonding should be the same. Its easy to blame the CSST if you use bad or flawed science. Texas is notorious for doing that. They snuffed an innocent man and almost snuffed another based on bad Faux fire burn pattern science. To me, its just as likely that the current came out of the CSST and jumped to the metal close by as the other way around. If that is so, then the whole issue of CSST is bogus. Perhaps the majority of strikes are cloud to ground. But when you get a ground to cloud strike, the damage is much worse. The suppression system gives the least resistance. If you are depending on the neutral/bonding system to be the suppression system, there may be problems.
They must have hellacious lightning storms on Colorado. What do they do there in Colorado on mountain homes?
The posted photo on the left with the curtain lightning. Is that a multiple charge coming out of the ground and gathering into just a few bolts before going in to the cloud or the other way around? Possibly. They used a digital camera that took 10,000 frames per second and had the ability to keep the camera running and stop it when they saw a flash. It saved the last 30,000 frames before the camera stopped to account for human reaction time. Only then were they able to catch the "Sprites".
There's no such thing as too much bonding.

Bonding CSST:

@ July 11, 2014 2:51 AM in Bonding CSST:

Someone asked me about bonding CSST. They had been told that it was illegal to bond to any gas line or CSST. I found this.

http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf
And:
http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/gas-pipe-grounding-legal

Guns:

@ July 11, 2014 2:30 AM in Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

But the Corporations that make them are "persons" and have the same rights as you and I.
I'm waiting to see a Corporation tried, convicted and given the Death Penalty.
Lethal Injection.
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