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Joined on November 2, 2010

Last Post on August 25, 2014

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forced air

@ August 25, 2014 10:59 PM in Scorched Air vs Hydrocoil

More then conventional forced air.

Scorched Air vs Hydrocoil

@ August 25, 2014 10:06 PM in Scorched Air vs Hydrocoil

Good evening Wallies,

Always pondering, looking to learn & butting heads....this time was butting heads with a contractor. Not buying into his cheap workmanship and manipulation tactics.

In the world of forced error, there are two systems that one usually finds. Those two are furnaces and hydrocoils fed off of a boiler. It is my understanding that the hx on a furnace is no different then a hydrocoil heating the air. One has water flowing through it and the other products of combustion. Given the same surface temperature (coil or furnace hx) one would assume the air in the vent would have the same humidity level. I could be wrong though, and that is why I am writing on the wall. I have read Manual-P on psychometrics, but never polished the information.

Todays "heated" discussion was with a contractor who claimed that with any forced error system the air is dry and one would require a humidifier to add moister to the air.
His claim is that any hydrocoil that has been installed in the homes he built have customers that rave about the air not being dry. I think he and his client are full of hot air.

It is only logical to me, that with the correct airflow, and proper condensing furnace, one would replicate the hydrocoil.

If im wrong, quickly delete this post before he finds it.............only kidding.

Discuss so we can all learn.


@ August 14, 2014 8:50 PM in Homeowner replacing gas with electric, seek input

Look into


@ August 14, 2014 4:57 PM in UPS or Surge Protection - Condensing Boiler

Spoke to a boiler manufacturer that is very technical and they say all that is needed is a surge protector. Brickwall seems to have the best technology in surge protection.

brown out

@ August 14, 2014 12:18 PM in UPS or Surge Protection - Condensing Boiler

Noticed a brown out while working there a week ago. Few days later found out the air conditioning wasnt working and I found a blown fuse on a three phase. The brown out could have been just that, however the boilers did have issues and we want to eliminate any possibility of the boiler getting poor signals. Flame rectification and mod cons can be picky.

UPS or Surge Protection - Condensing Boiler

@ August 14, 2014 11:23 AM in UPS or Surge Protection - Condensing Boiler

Good morning,

Looking to protect two (commercial) condensing boilers from poor electric just as a precaution and to rule out the possibility that the electric is causing an issue. I found quality surge protection from Brickwall, however unsure if that is what these boilers require.

Get as technical as you would like however try not to loose me with the electrical jargon.

Thanks in advance.


@ August 10, 2014 1:20 PM in Burnham has tested Beckett gas burners in oil-fired boilers

Recently spoke to a Slantfin tech support team member regarding purchasing an Intrepid for a residential application where I would install a gas burner from day one. They approve the carlin burner for use in their boilers. The stack "wet time" of a power burner is much less then an atmospheric.


@ July 13, 2014 10:41 PM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

The system is being run temporarily in limp mode while we ensure equipment is working.
One day we will disconnect the appliances and blow compressed air through the system to see if any moisture comes out. I have heard stories first hand that when a large gas line has leaks they fill it with water, leave it open to rust and blow out the water. If that happened here, maybe they didnt blow it all out?! Time will tell.


@ July 10, 2014 7:17 PM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

1. 4inwc
2. Cant recall
3. no moisture
4. 4inwc

Surge sizing

@ July 10, 2014 7:14 PM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

Good evening Ray,

Any formulas or rules of thumb to calculate surge pipe sizing?

Thanks in advance.


@ July 9, 2014 7:09 PM in Looking at Split systems

Since this is a place where many will gather, two things to keep in mind. Sensible heat ratio and air changes per hour. Keeping the temperature cool is only part of the equation.

Dry vs Wet

@ July 9, 2014 1:15 AM in Getting into mod/con business

I have seen a graph of dry base boilers vs wet base boilers that illustrated time on one axis and efficiency on the other axis. The wet base power burner boiler achieved higher efficiency quicker due to drying up the flu at a faster rate. Add that thought when comparing conventional dry base boilers to condensing equipment.

Way Off

@ July 7, 2014 3:48 PM in Getting into mod/con business

You are WAY off the mark. The difference i$ not proportional to the efficiency rating. Designed and implemented correctly there is more savings. Installing a mod con is not necessarily done for payback, its also for comfort, and for some its about the environment.


@ July 3, 2014 12:54 AM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

A SPECIAL thanks Tim and Ray for stepping in and replying! It seems that the line was sized for a specific inlet pressure that is actually not present every day, hence the intermittent lockouts.

We used a chart with a multiplication factor to work back what we are getting based off of our pressure drop from the meter to the boiler and the approximate length (including fittings). Slurping a slurpee through a coffee straw is whats going on. Had my head too wound up in the charts to realize the chart is based off of .3inwc and we had a deeper draw.

We spoke about adding a buffer pipe like Ray mentioned, however was told if any money was to be spent on gas, just run a new line rather then waste time at this point.

These boilers are EXTREMELY picky. You could sit there all day and baby sit them and they will lock out ten minutes after you leave. As a heads up for anyone buying, installing or servicing condensing equipment, be ready to be on your own and not get real help from the manufacture. They have been less then helpful here and in the past.

Ray, would you be able to lead me to a formula to use when up sizing piping diameter and length to aid in ignition?

Thanks again guys!


@ July 2, 2014 1:03 PM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

Thanks for the reply. Would you have any photos of the fitting, or any other info how you got the gas company to commit and join forces to fix the issue?


@ July 2, 2014 9:35 AM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

Knight boilers. Located 35 feet away from the meter. Pipe sizing looks to have been longest branch method.

Thanks for your reply.

before the meter

@ July 2, 2014 9:33 AM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

There is a test port before the meter, however the guage reads identical.

All gas cocks are full port commercial style full port with a hole for a lock.

Thank you for your reply.

Bouncing Gas Pressure

@ July 1, 2014 9:23 PM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

Good evening wallies,

Writing up a small paragraph and posting two videos in hopes someone has come across this issue before and can lead me in the correct direction.
Have a small building with two 600mbh condensing boilers. Two inch gas line from the street to the boilers. Low pressure in the street so there are no regulators. Gas main has a wye strainer which is clean and removed the basket for testing with no relief, so it was re-installed. Meter is a rotary style meter that is brand new due to me thinking it was the cause of the nuance spikes.

The first video is when only the commercial 160mbh dryer is running. Second video is when only a single boiler starts up and runs. The only thought I have is that there is water in the line however the drip legs were dry other then a few drops of oil. When one boiler is on, the second will lock out intermittently due to an unstable gas pressure. No regulators on the line. Gas company says they did their job as there is six inches of water column at the meter.
Hopefully your internet connection is fast enough to see the needle vibrating.



While I have you guys here, can anyone assist in sharing a source or pdf that illustrates and instructs how one can oversize a NG line to compensate for not enough pressure on start up? General gas sizing information would also be helpful as I can use a good brushing up on pressure drops, fittings and line length.

The boiler company said we need a pressure booster since the street cant deliver over seven in-wc. Never heard of such an apparatus.
Comments & suggestions welcome.

Works some times

@ June 27, 2014 8:06 PM in capacitors - maintenance?

Funny you wrote this, I was about to start a thread about this. The formula works sometimes. I use it on caps to see if they fall within the allowable percent written on the cap spec label.
This week I tested a capacitor and decided it was bad. The replacement capacitor had worse readings! made me think, is the old one bad?!

On a mother maintenance this week I found a capacitor that was feeding only 30vac between the fan and c terminal. Figured it was bad, replaced it and the new capacitor only had 50 volts between the two terminals. Go figure.... Somethings wrong but I don't know where to start first.

If anyone has a good article or pdf file to share on capacitors, please share it here. I as well as the rest of us are always looking to learn more.

North East

@ June 22, 2014 2:13 PM in Ductless Split Head Placement

The long wall with no windows faces NE.

I convinced to have the client go with a cassette in the living room since the ceiling framing allows the hight. The dining room does not have sufficient hight in the ceiling so a wall unit will complement it on the opposite of the dining room.

Thanks all for the replies.

Ductless Split Head Placement

@ June 19, 2014 6:24 PM in Ductless Split Head Placement

Good afternoon wallies,

The AC section has been quiet for the past few days, so to stir the pot here is a question for a job I am working on.

I have two options for head placement. One incorporates two units, the other requires just one.


Cooling load for the two rooms is one ton. If I use the two head option, it would be a total of 14kbtuh (smallest units sold are 7kbtuh).
The red option: The Daikin split unit head can not throw the distance of the whole room, thus the need for a second ducted unit placed in the ceiling of the entrance closet.
The green option: One single head. Daikin says the motorized louvers can spread air flow 15* in either direction and continually oscillate.



@ June 13, 2014 1:41 PM in Whoops!

Manuals are just so when you kneel down you dont dirty the your clean pants. :)

Probably a novice question, however why dont they come strapped and insulated from the manufacture?
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