Heating Help

Rebuild the traps

@ January 28, 2012 7:01 PM in Hot Returns = Bad Traps?

I may wait 'til after the season to try to rebuild the bad traps.  I plan to try to ID all the bad ones this winter.  Because the traps are behind the decorative convector covers, it's pretty involved to open them up (I haven't actually tried yet). 

One "problem" I'm having this winter is that it's been so warm, I may only get a couple of firing cycles per day to check things out!  Most of the convector return lines are in the crawlspace from H3LL, so it's impossible to get under there and actually feel the returns while the boiler's firing. I've got to find a reliable method to do it from upstairs.

I've got a section of main with some rusted-out spots that a plumber put "repair" clamps on a couple of years ago to tackle, too.  I haven't found a plumber yet who wants to get his hands dirty, so I may take this on myself, too! 

Darrel

IR Thermometer

@ January 28, 2012 6:54 PM in Hot Returns = Bad Traps?

Rod - I bought the same one at HD.  It's been really useful in seeing when my two loops get hot when they return to the boiler, and it looks like it'll help find the leaky traps.  My convectors have the decoratve covers, and I hope I'll be able to "shoot" through the openings and read the pipe temp just below the trap.  Now that I've ID'd a couple that I know are bad by finding their return pipes in the basement, I should be able to figure out what normal and bad readings should be at the trap itself. 

Hot Returns = Bad Traps?

@ January 28, 2012 10:02 AM in Hot Returns = Bad Traps?

I think I know what's going on, but I'm looking for confirmation:  2-pipe Trane Vapor System, with in-wall convectors.  Most of the condensate return lines remain ~ 75°F when the system is operating, but a few get up to 190 - 200.  I assume this means the traps feeding those hot lines are failed open?

Thanks,

Darrel

PTFE Tape?

@ January 28, 2012 9:26 AM in Trap Replacement - Oil Threads?

I may be doing the same thing soon... would PTFE tape help with removal down the road?

Darrel

Too Warm to Test

@ January 27, 2012 10:19 AM in Main Pipe Pitch

Thanks for all the suggestions!  I replaced a few hangers that had been torn down by the A/C yahoos (20 - 30 yrs ago), and added a couple more.  I used a magnetic level, with pitch indicators.  The shallowest pitch it has is 1/8"/ft, so I pitched the pipes about midway between level and the 1/8 mark. 

It's been in the 50s and 60s since I did all this, though, so I haven't been able to tell if the hammering is improved.

DW

Main Pipe Pitch

@ January 24, 2012 8:08 PM in Main Pipe Pitch

Thanks for the reply, Jamie.  On this system, the 3" main steam line goes from the boiler straight under the spine of the house - about 45 ft.  At the end, the line T-s into left and right loops, which return to the boiler.  All the convectors feed from these two loops.  The convectors vent / drain through traps into condensate return loops which run alongside the steam mains back to the boiler (Trane Direct Return Trap).  The condensate returns are above the waterline (about 50") - does this make them "dry" returns?

The two steam loops and the two condensate loops are vented when they return near the boiler. 

I'm trying to solve a BAD steam hammer issue.  When I finally got up under the 3" main, I saw that it had at least two loose hangers, and was sagging about 2 inches (or more).  I want to lift this back up, and would like to make sure it's pitched in the right direction.  It looks like several hangers are missing on the distribution loops, as well.  I can tell that these loops DO slope downward WITH the steam flow (parallel).
The 3" main is elevated 79" above the floor where it heads out, and the two loops are at 71" and 72" where they return.  Assuming a 1/20 pitch for parallel flow, I guess it's possible ALL the mains are pitched down (7" drop would cover 140 ft of pipe, which is about what there is in each loop - including the 3" main).

After I get the mains strapped up, I'll insulate all the steam pipes. 

Thanks to everybody for their assistance.  I've been unable to find any knowledgeable professional help around here (NC).  I guess they're too busy putting in heat pumps!

Darrel

Water Level

@ January 24, 2012 4:07 PM in Main Pipe Pitch

... sounds like a great idea.  I'll see if I can figure out how to do it.  The main is about 45 ft long, all in crawl space with 6 in to 2 ft clearance!  And, I'll be on my own.
Darrel

Main Pipe Pitch

@ January 24, 2012 3:32 PM in Main Pipe Pitch

I have a 2-pipe Trane Vapor System.  I understand from reviewing some of the posts that mains should be pitched at 1 in / 10 ft for counterflow, and 1 in / 20 ft for parallel flow (minimums). 

I need to raise some sagging main pipes in my crawl space (where hangers have been torn off).  I've attached a general layout of my main pipes.  The steam heads outbound from the boiler in a 3-in main pipe, then distributes into two loops to the 19 convectors before getting back to the boiler.

Is it likely that the outbound 3-in main is counterflow, and should be pitched back to the boiler, and the two distribution loops are parallel flow, pitching down in the same direction as the steam flow?

Thanks!

Trane Return Trap

@ January 23, 2012 12:13 PM in Gushing Gorton

Here's a picture of the Trane Direct Return Trap showing the connections.  In the background are the old Hoffman vents on the returns.  The vent on the right sits about 3" lower than the middle vent in the picture, which is on the return from the opposite loop.

Thanks...

@ January 23, 2012 11:37 AM in Gushing Gorton

for the flushing advice.  I'll need the plumber's help for that, he may need to install some drain valves.

Vaporstat it is, then...

@ January 23, 2012 11:34 AM in Gushing Gorton

I'll try to get a Vaporstat and low pressure gauge installed, then.  The only plumber who'll actually return my calls, though, isn't sold on the low pressure steam concept, though. 
The returns are about 50 - 55" above the waterline, so I can see the problem with the 2 psi or above.
My Hoffman 4As are in pretty bad shape... any recommendation for a float vent appropriate for a condensate return line?
I've attached a diagram of the return piping, too.

Leaking Traps?

@ January 23, 2012 11:13 AM in Gushing Gorton

Could leaking traps cause the return to be "pressurized", and forcing water out the vent faster than it can return to the boiler?
I'm trying to find a plumber who'll do any work on the steam system (in NC, this is tough!).  I doubt any cleanouts have been done since this boiler was installed in the 1980s (when it was converted from oil to gas). 
What about the Gortons, shouldn't they stop water?

Mine whistles, too.

@ January 23, 2012 10:15 AM in Whistling boiler

My Weil-McLain whistles constantly while the gas is flowing.  A plumber once told me the regulator (?) was too small for the flowrate, or the flow was too high for the regulator.  It doesn't bother me anymore, I always know when the boiler is firing!

Gushing Gorton

@ January 23, 2012 9:50 AM in Gushing Gorton

I just replaced Hoffman 4As with Gorton #2 vents on both mains and condensate return lines (2-pipe steam).  There are two loops in the house; on one of the condensate returns, water GUSHES out after the system is fully heated up.  I've turned the pressuretrol to minimum, but water still gushes out occasionally.  Probably about a gallon.  (The Hoffman's spit, but just in spurts, and not nearly as much water.
The gushing return is about 3 in lower elevation than the opposing line, and they join together near the floor; so I assume if I elevate the leaking vent to be as high as the opposite one, the leaking should stop. 
But - I thought the Gortons were supposed to stop water from "venting", as well as steam?

Steam-savvy Contractor near Greensboro, NC?

@ January 13, 2012 2:21 PM in Steam-savvy Contractor near Greensboro, NC?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a residential steam expert near Greensboro, NC?  I've gone through four plumbers in the past couple of years.  Three of them refuse to do any work, and the fourth doesn't seem to know very much!
Thanks!
DNW

Air Vents?

@ January 19, 2011 11:39 AM in Spitting Air Vents

Thanks again, Dave, for the great info!  The Trane document shows "quick vents" and "float vents" on the lines near the boiler (pg 11).  My system has four Hoffman No. 4A QuickVents only.  The Trane doc says their quick vents "close against steam only", while float vents "close against steam and water".  Do you know if the Hoffman Quick Vent is designed to stop water (ie - has a float?)?

Copper / Gas

@ January 19, 2011 9:13 AM in Spitting Air Vents

Dave -   Thanks for the tip.  Copper may be allowed here, but I'll ask the guys when they come in about this.
DW

Trane Trap

@ January 19, 2011 9:10 AM in Spitting Air Vents

Dave, thanks for the input.  Here's a picture of the ancient Trane Direct Return Trap.  It's still connected, and appears to be in use (there's a hole in the vertical pipe coming down from the trap, and it spouts water quite freely unless I keep the bike inner tube wrapped around it!).  Also, the vents are 50" above the marked line on the water inlet float body. 
I went down this morning during the heatup, and the two vents that were spitting were cool; the third, that sometimes spits, got warm and continued to vent a little steam.  The fourth vent, on the hottest pipe, just continues to vent steam (small amount, but audible hiss). 
Our house has 20 convectors for about 3500 ft² - two stories.  Piping to the farthest unit must be at least 60 - 80 ft.
I think the vents probably do need replacing.  As far as boiler pressure, I'll have to call someone in - the same outfit that replaced the inlet float a couple of years ago.  I don't think they'll understand much of what you describe!  I haven't really found anybody around G'boro who seems to know much about these systems... they just want us to convert to forced air!
DW

Spitting Air Vents - System Pix

@ January 18, 2011 9:46 PM in Spitting Air Vents

I believe the system operates at about 2 psi.  Here are a couple of pictures with the spitting vents (2nd picture, just below the yellow "2 psi" sign (nat gas pressure).  We've had a bit of pipe work done over the past few years.  We just noticed the spitting vents this season, although they've likely been doing it for a couple of years (we could hear odd sounds, but didn't notice the spitting).
Thanks for all the help!

Spitting Air Vents

@ January 18, 2011 12:44 PM in Spitting Air Vents

I have a 2-pipe (?) steam system with recessed convectors.  I have four Hoffman No. 4A vents at the tops of vertical pipes near my home boiler.  Three of these vents have started spitting water up to the basement ceiling; the fourth does not.  This happens when the boiler has been on for a long time, as when heating up in the morning when the thermostat setting is increased.  When the boiler cools, I can hear air being sucked back into the valves.  Also, when the boiler is operating, the water level in the sight glass fluctuates up and down quite a lot (about 3 or 4 inches).  Any clues as to what's causing the spitting? 
Thanks,
DNW