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Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on July 24, 2014

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@ July 24, 2014 9:35 AM in Want to move from oil to gas boiler. Best way forward?

correct Carl . I apologize to any who I may have offended with actual theory which makes sense .
 Funny thing happened last June 2013.  I was in Cranston and there were a bunch of guys there that work for Navien . Some were from the West coast and some from Cherry Hill , All tech support guys though . What was amazing is the fact that while overhearing their conversations and listening to their questions it occurred to me and many others that these guys knew nothing about hydronics , they only had manufacturer product specific training and knew NO SCIENCE .  Really was illuminating to me . Just sayin


@ July 24, 2014 8:51 AM in Want to move from oil to gas boiler. Best way forward?

Chris and Snowmelt ,
   Chris , in all fairness the Navien would be able to provide 100k for space heating at a 40* Delta T . Lest we never forget the Universal Hydronics Formula . 
George the Navien will never be able to provide 199K for space heat . Again ,Lest we never forget the Universal Hydronics Formula .


@ July 24, 2014 8:43 AM in Want to move from oil to gas boiler. Best way forward?

Are you empl;oyed by Navien or did they certify you to install their product ?


@ July 24, 2014 8:34 AM in Want to move from oil to gas boiler. Best way forward?

The only combis you hear about are tankless . Why is that ?  Because the guys installing them don't know or only care about the wrong thing , first cost . After they install them and add P&S piping and do it wrong and come back to your house 5 times and your still unhappy then you go to the wall for a 300 post discussion you still have garbage .  Here , this is made right here and serves your purpose better . With a 1 bath house it is plenty and your efficiencies will be just fine with the right control strategy . This is a combi , just the right kind .
  Keep your money here at home and have it done right .  All you need extra with this is a nice Taco I series outdoor reset valve . Tankless looks sexy but when you get to the party she's really just an ugly fat chick .

Hubbard Cobb

@ July 24, 2014 8:20 AM in What did it cost in 1960?

Your dream house for under 3500 dollars (1950) .   Yes boys , it had radiant heat


@ July 24, 2014 8:13 AM in Tubing size, spacing, flow rate for a joist install

Rob Brown is at Rockport Mechanical in Lewiston Me .  Maybe you could contact him for assistance

Expansion Tanks

@ July 22, 2014 7:29 AM in bladder tank total volume - who cares?

May be the only part of our systems where bigger is better won't hurt . Remember to charge that tank before filling the system .


@ July 22, 2014 7:25 AM in Inexpensive boiler buffer tank

are too small for this

Delta T

@ July 17, 2014 9:03 PM in Complete new system on small house

Also take into account that CI Rads play very well with 30 - 40* Delta T so with ODR you can be in the condensing condition for much of the year

Thermal Battery Systems

@ July 16, 2014 11:46 AM in GEO COOLING

Contact James Schenck . He is who you wanna speak to . Listen to what he has to tell you and be glad you did .

Default in my mind

@ July 15, 2014 1:48 PM in Second guessing

when I am out in a remote site I always order 3 lineal feet for every 2 square , 0" 12" 24" , 3 lineal feet for 2 sq . We save lots of trips this way and always have stuff in shop for those small jobs .


@ July 15, 2014 11:46 AM in Second guessing

 there are in fact 3 lineal feet of tubing in two square feet . @ 0" - 12" - 24" .  And due to the time of my post last night I reverted to my default 1 trip to the supply house calculation , I do apologise , after reading this now in my office after coffee and being wide awake I correct myself and say 12" center would require along the lines of  1,850 ft with leader lengths and 9" spacing would require about 2340 feet . You are correct .

12 @ 200

@ July 14, 2014 11:16 PM in Second guessing

Is 12" oc layout . 1,600 ft building , 2400 feet of tube .  Besides the lack of quality insulation . Sounds as if the average depth below grade is 4' , any chance the guy will excavate tat and install 2 - 4" of EPS or XPS up against that wall ? That would be a huge help . 

Just Seeing this

@ July 14, 2014 7:11 AM in Bouncing Gas Pressure

Tim , sorry for the delay .    The series summation method is CSA approved engineering method .  The book on my desk is dated November 2006 but the method has not been changed . It appears on page 36 of that text and the iron pipe pressure drop tables appear on pages 88-91 and cover load and sizing from 10,000 through15,000,000 BTU ..  Gastite also has a downloadable size it program that supports every method . 
 We had a hell of a time explaining this method to inspectors . Had lots of resistance and finally DCA assisted with a communicator to all inspection departments validating the engineering method and it's acceptability . We still have guys that need it explained to them .Gee , imagine that !

Most Folks

@ July 13, 2014 2:28 PM in Getting into mod/con business

have no clue about all the thought we dedicate to every single job Gordy . I think they miss the point that those hours which they never see are money well spent .

Monitor MZ

@ July 13, 2014 12:25 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Funny you should mention the MZ Bob .  We are doing a job now for a woman whose husband is employed by the gas utility . He , in his infinite wisdom retrofitted his former home with radiant , some embedded some sandwich . Non barrier tubing , electric stripped out water heater for a buffer laying horizontal , 20+ circs (B&G NRF22s) , no water treatment for heating system with well water system .  Female homeowner has house after divorce , pays monthly maintenance / repair contract , heat goes out in January , tech cannot figure out what is wrong , bypasses safeties & flue safety after being instructed to do so by office , states this is against his better judgement on written paperwork . House almost burns down , everything in house freezes , house destroyed essentially . Insurance company is ecstatic , they have the best case one could hope for , written negligence by an employee .  We spent 5 complete days flushing lines to my satisfaction ( Caleffi flush/fill) . Found so many problems with house other than what is obvious .  After dissecting Monitor I found the trap completely filled with lime scale .  Just an example of the so many things that can go wrong .
  Anyone who thinks your gas supplier is an authority on anything , think again . 

Customer Attitude

@ July 13, 2014 8:45 AM in Getting into mod/con business

I always find myself walking away from jobs because I won't install what some idiot told them would work . Hell , I can sit on my couch with my hand in my pants watching television and not lose money and worry about being sued . That approach has zero overhead .  I have counseled too many attorneys at this point on what was done wrong and 100% provable to even entertain the thought of doing it wrong . I educate my potential customers and let them make their decision . I also offer to design the systems for them so bidding contractors can bid apples to apples while at the same time including my bid in the form of a budget for the system , many times they figure out they cannot really afford radiant or whatever it is they are seeking . Then you have the guy that watches DIY TV , you go to his house , measure , design , provide price and he tells you he saw on DIY where it can be done for 10.00 per sq ft . You point out to him that he is missing one very important point , you're not doing it yourself ,I am doing it for you . Fact is that almost all consumers will pay 500.00 for a 5.00 job but piss and moan about spending 5.00 on a 500.00 job . Imagine that  They will buy the newest I phone every 7 months but will skimp and be cheap on the equipment in their largest investment , their home .  
  Everything we use today damn near requires maintenance . Fact is with proper equipment selection , design and installation a whole lot of maintenance is not required .
  So I see now what you do . Let me ask you this . If some other engineer that was not in your exact field came and told you he had a better way than you and you had already seen people attempt that unsuccessfully or in a manner that the longevity sucked what would your response be ?  I am guessing you would be frustrated with that discussion . Well , at least you're experimenting in your own plane and not someone else's .  


@ July 13, 2014 8:26 AM in Getting into mod/con business

You'll know if it is an issue by the color / tint of the water leaving your faucets .  A simple test from a sample at the incoming water and one from the drain at the bottom of the heater will tell you if it is elevated .  I had a customer whose home had city water that was fine at incoming in every way but with readings if I remember correctly around 450 ppm after the tank . Manufacturer tried to state that water was too soft , it was in fact point 007 low . A nice letter from the attorney finally convinced them to warranty and replace the tank .    


@ July 12, 2014 11:42 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Bc .  There are so many things to consider when debating this subject .
1 Is the boiler to be placed in a new home or retrofit ? Many of the homes I enter to replace a boiler have way too much baseboard , this allows me to determine by way of heat loss calc what the max temp required is and with ODR we can make  mod cons sing and have regularly experienced greater than 35% savings for space heating only , the number grows when we can install DHW also .
 Many of these same houses this is not possible and I can only speak for myself when I say I replace those like for like (but smaller most times)
  Then you will get the house that has undergone extensive envelope improvements and has an point 3 ACH NAT performance . You can't really introduce cold air into the space for combustion and increase the heat loss of the structure. You don't want to size the DOAS system for that , if there is one , many times that was not done in favor of exhaust only which would compound the combustion air problem .Now these poor homeowners have a real problem they are gonna die without the mod con .  I don't believe you appreciate the balancing act many of us are doing out here to DO THE RIGHT THING , save people money every month , make them comfortable and be able to sleep at night .
  The world we are working in is challenging . Competition is offering garbage and putting people at risk and in jeopardy . They install stuff that does not work , they don't do heat loss calcs , they don't know what head , Delta T , OAT , ECM , reverse return , P&S . It's terrible and the attorneys are just sitting in their office heated by mod cons waiting for the phone to ring . Hell , we even have utility companies administering incentive and rebate programs that make you use a mod con in a house where it does not belong and then slap a direct vent , PVC exhausted water heater right next to it because you cannot have an orphaned chimney without enough BTUs to heat it up . These jobs are where most of your horror stories come from . I see boilers all the time where the homeowners would like them ripped out and the only problem is the installer . I have mod cons out here that have run trouble free since 1995 and I have mod cond that the folks do not want service for whatever reason that become a problem .
  I also have replaced more cast iron boilers installed by some knucklehead that thought just run them at 130 for radiant and return em at 110 , they'll be fine .
 New houses are a completely different story . The guys that you have been exchanging with likely as I would rather be part of a design team during conception and build a house to suit what the occupant wants as opposed to designing a heating system to an architects attempt at an award for a giant turd he can publish and toot his own horn about to the world . This is the way it is starting to be done now .  Please take a look at the attachments , this is a house we are about to break ground on , I have given the details at 5* w/ 20 mph wind and 28* w/ 20 mph wind . Piping is designed to have minimal head loss , all panels will operate at 10* DT and the boilers will condense 100% of the time .  This house will consume no more than 2255 therms annually . NJNG budget amount for this house will run right about 210.00 per month . This is what most of us here do , maybe this will explain where we speak from .  A lot of time was spent this winter helping folks tell their contractors what they did wrong so they could fix it , Maybe you could help us in the future .
 By the way , I have seen what you are ready to embark on . Be very gingerly putting that in place . I have seen 3 units set up like yours where the glass separated or chipped and the manganese levels were terribly dangerous .


@ July 11, 2014 6:56 PM in Mod/con poll. Installers only.

Well if I have to recommend one it would be #3 .  Lots of radiators in NYC and area .  Don't forget dirt seperators when you do use a modcon , all the trash will plug up an HX quick in stock that old . After you determine heal loss and what the radiation is capable of you can make your recommendation . Don't be scared of 180* SWTs though if using ODR because running a 40* Delta with radiators will have you condensing for a real good portion of the season.

Confusion ?

@ July 11, 2014 7:17 AM in Bonding CSST:

Ice , we have known this forever , it's been in the code longer than that .  "All above ground portions of gas piping SHALL be bonded continuous " , Always been there never should have been questioned , challenged by anyone , this was in fact written before the appearance of CSST systems . I am not defending CSST , I like using Iron Pipe . I am pointing a finger at anyone who thought or thinks they are more intelligent than the dead men when it comes to things as dangerous as the storage and distribution of explosive material INSIDE the built environment .  There have now been many cases where CSST was found to be faulty / defective but to date they have not had to pay significant fines , cease manufacture or stop selling the product . There is one reason for this , they are not liable and if properly installed CSST is a viable product .  Most lightning strikes occur right at the meter , just attach the clamp there and bond it so any energizing that could travel through the system goes to ground before that damage can be done . Do this even on Iron pipe systems guys .   To eliminate any confusion , Bonding carries energy away from the system , Using the system as a pathway to Ground would be bad . There is no confusion . Anyone who is confused about this should probably stick to stuff they are qualified for


@ July 10, 2014 7:21 PM in Getting into mod/con business

mentioned the Pioneer as a comparison to a conventional cast iron boiler in this thread and as a comparison of same the 55 gallons of mass allow the Pioneer to be held out for a longer period between cycles .  My comparison as far as the system you will install in your house was the Versa Flame which is an identical plug and play package developed by professional engineers to do exactly what you want in your home . Many guys still have the need to build a wall full of pumps and controls and valves and all sorts of shit that is unnecessary when they could order a package that has it all and is less complicated but they deem too expensive . What you are firgetting is the basic rule of business , time is money , at least mine is . You and others can build all the crazy trash you want at the end of the year I will spend hardly any time on service and will have completed 4 more complete projects than my peers . Please be accurate BC , I will engage in constructive discussion forever , anyone here can attest to that but I have no time for nonsensical garbage . By the way , what you are about to embark on was tried and failed long ago, this is the reason equipment like HTP has developed was developed . The difference between your GPVX and ANY boiler is this , the boiler was built to run 24/7 for 5-7 months a year , under those conditions your GPVX will end it's first season seeing as much use as it would just being a water heater for 6 years . Have fun getting warranty service from AO  
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