Joined on May 27, 2011
Last Post on March 7, 2014
@ June 17, 2013 1:44 PM in Condensor to Water conversionare you wanting to produce Heating cooling combi radiant systems ?
@ June 17, 2013 1:30 PM in Delta t ...... The obsessionare being achieved by what means Jean David ?
@ June 15, 2013 9:00 PM in in slab radiantare all that matter as the end result . My point is the wider the Delta T the more heat that is being transferred into the space . The most efficient boiler is the boiler that is not running . So you are the occupant of a home that has a poorly (if at all) designed heating system , not all that uncommon , welcome to the ranks . With any luck your radiant tubing is in a nice layer of sand and not right in the concrete like so many ,
One can assure return temps without compromising heat transferred into the space , running a system with no Delta T is absolutely nuts . You don't need a rich uncle to finance your project or little tweaks here and there . 500.00 installed for an ECM is a bit high in my book , I sell comfort and efficiency on a daily basis and know what these things cost to install and believe me 500.00 a piece is too high to change out a circ for a local contractor .
You would not hurt your efficiency at the boiler by raising the SWT 5* and using a circulator that more closely matches your load requirements and getting a wider Delta T , more heat is being transferred then and your boiler will actually gain efficiency along with running less . You need heat transfer period . The less heat that is being removed from the delivery side of the system the less efficient it is . You cannot nor can anyone argue this simple fact . Less cycles of the boiler whether they are short or nice efficient 10 minute ones is a good thing . 10* , 18* , 20* , 36* , 40* Delta T's are not some magic numbers and they are not just mathematically easier as a choice , they happen to be the numbers that have proven for these emitters to be the most efficient and getting the most heat out of them at any outdoor condition .
@ June 14, 2013 9:01 PM in in slab radiantdoes your computer use ? a Taco 007F5IFC consumes right around 80 watts while operating . You state your design temp is 14*F and in another thread you stated that you were effected by Sandy so I will guess that you are somewhere in my geographical area . The average size garage with the best garage door one can purchase with the best insulation you can install in a 2x4 wall with no windows has a requirement of 4,736 BTUh on a 14*F day and requires 82* AWT flowing at 1 GPM to maintain a surface temp of 71.2 and a room temp of 69* . Let's hypothesize that you are flowing 3 GPM at design , your Delta T would be 3*F , on a design day . This sir is not a designed system at all . When you design a system you must Choose a design Delta T , most manufacturers of Boilers , tubing , radiant heating products , heat emitters of all sorts agree on an industry standard 10* , 20* , there are a few product specific variants . Warmboard which the OP inquired about in fact recommends a 10*Delta T be run through their product to perform at stated outputs . Most manufacturers of tubing used in radiant heat applications concur with the 10* DeltaT through a slab a radiant floor with a few 20* product specific recommendations . These are facts , not assumptions , not opinions . They are all based on a formule known to heating system designers , unfortunately , whomever designed the boiler , DHW and controls of your system was not aware of this formula or just did not care enough to employ it .
Since you are pumping 3 GPM with a Taco 007 your head loss must be 9.5' - 9.75' head loss , this conclusion is arrived at by observing the pump curves as per Taco as of 09/09/09 . Your system that requires around 24,000 BTUh as per you must short cycle quite a bit at any temp above design considering your narrow Delta T's , this also is a fact , if it does not then sir the laws of physics ceased to exist at your front door . Many of us install new systems in buildings that are existing , some of us perform a heat loss before installing the equipment and less of us take the time to tailor a system to the needs of the home taking into account the existing emitters that will be our distribution system .
Your boiler is not working to it's potential , your emitters are not transferring enough heat to your space and I can almost with certainty say that one of the following is true , A. see the bottom of all my posts , B. You researched how heating systems work on the internet and heard more opinions and hypotheses than fact and this was verified by a plumber who did not really know and listened to what you said and is now spouting that off as gospel on some site .
Live and learn I suppose
@ June 13, 2013 10:19 PM in in slab radiantno heat is being transferred to the room and you are moving 20 GPM per 10000 BTUh when it is above 50 ? You must have a big buffer tank . Most folks only require 2 GPm to actually heat the space . I would surely suggest changing that circulator to an ECM if for nothing else but the electrical savings , does your home sound like a model train is running through the floor ? I wonder .
@ June 12, 2013 8:42 PM in in slab radiantbeen performed for this home ? Does not matter that system is existing , if you're thinking radiant that would entail that you want it comfortable and right .
1 . After having heat loss done you will know how many loops you require and how many feet they should be . Then you can determine what pump to employ . Your Delta T should be 10* in a floor usually . Some may disagree .
2. You should certainly use the return water for cold side of mixing valve . Is your existing cast iron baseboard or rads ? Do not upsize the mixing valve , the samller the better as long as it will flow your required GPM . The less fluid the faster they can pinpoint your desired temp . Kinda like hunting in a narrow field with lotsa game as opposed to a wide one with the same amount .
3. 12" spacing or even greater will probably suffice . Again the heat loss will give this information .
4. Warmboard is a good product . This should also be run at a 10* Delta T . Is your air scoop an air scoop of old ? If so I would get rid of it and use a more modern air eliminator , configure it so your make up water enters there and your expansion tank also . No need for more than one elimination point usually , if piped properly , however without seeing actual system I have seen some that could use a bit more in certain areas .
Do The Heat Loss .
@ June 7, 2013 7:49 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5is not who I am referring to . Don't quite know how anyone got that idea but if they did I apologize . I refer to others Bob , from other forums . Please see one of my first posts here titled " How it got started " . Did not think you were talking about a snowmelt slab , accept my apologies but again I have not encountered snow at 35* but then I would start the slab early in forecast of snow .
I too have no problem with laminar flow vs turbulent and if you read that How it got started discussion my viewpoint on things , old standards , agencies that think they know will become quite apparent .
I will PM you to discuss other things further .
@ June 7, 2013 3:31 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5also can be made Delta T with the use of IR package .
@ June 7, 2013 3:27 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5First question ;
1 SWT , 2 manifolds , ? zones ( actuators) , 2 Delta Ts .
35* slab .
If this were to happen I would recommend contacting an attorney .
10,000 sq ft slab , Eau Claire , Wi , -13*F ODT , 55*F IDT, 4 large garage doors on 1 wall , 12" spacing , 1/2 pex , 53 loops , 178,789 BTU .
10* Delta T 77* SWT = 87* from boiler , 67 returning . 35.8 GPM @ 5.4 feet .
30* Delta T 87* SWT= 102* from boiler , 72* returning . 11.9 GPM @ .81 feet .
Will the 30* slab even heat up before it is time to punch the clock and go home . You know this slab would never be less than 60* surface temp except at startup , by the way we probably should not let this or any slab suffer such temperature swings . Keep it real Bob for progress's sake .
Substantiate claims . You know better than that . Anyone should feel free to research those who start the debate to find out who feeds their families .
@ June 7, 2013 3:10 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5so if a system
has a mix of slab with floor coverings, and quick trak or Warmboard operating at the exact same design temperature, do you set for a 10 or 20 ∆T?
The beauty of a design software is it allows you to adjust tube spacing, loop length, or flow rates to match temperature requirements. This eliminates having multiple mixing devices, reduces cost and complexity. Also the entire system can operate on one ODR device.
I would do as I always do in this instance . Use a single temp , zone it appropriately ( actuators) , 2 remote manifolds , 2 circs , 1 for each Delta .
" Wants " comes into selecting Design Delta from the following philosophy :
Smith's Environmental Low temp convectors open on 110* , close on 130* .
Buderus Panel radiator 18*F or 36*F Delta T
Warm board recommends 10 Delta T to insure rated output
Uponor recommends 10* Delta for floors except Quiktrak which is to be 20* Delta T .Uponor CDAM " Flow rates for ALL Quiktrak installations are calculated to a 20*F temperature differential " Appendix F is only Generic flow charts for 10 & 20 * Delta T with (100% water) or without differing %'s of Glycol
If you start a concrete slab at 35* .
If you have a concrete slab that is 35* that has been operating call an attorney . But in the instance that it did happen on a 10,000 sq ft slab in Eau Claire ,Wi on a -13*F day this is what would be required . 178,789 BTU , 53 loops , room design temp 55*F .
10*T SWT = 77 , 87* from boiler , returning 67* , 35.8 GPM @ 5.4 '
50*T SWT = 97 . 122*F from boiler , returning 72* , 7.2 GPM @ .33'
Now how long do you think it will take that slab to get up to temp ? Probably just in time for everyone to punch the clock , turn the heat off in the warehouse , and hope the whole place does not freeze up overnight . Let's try to heep things realistic for the sake of progress . I would point out that the 10* Delta system's boiler will enjoy an albeit ever so slight higher efficiency . Maybe someone will create the pump that will allow multiple , modulating Deltas in the future .
Care to substantiate claims about compensated folks ? No Bob not particularly . You Know better than that . But feel free to do the research I have done on those who start threads about all sorts of stuff .
@ June 7, 2013 1:38 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5Speed up a pump by closing zone valves ! Rob , you may possibly want to read the blog you are referencing . I believe John said as zone valves close the circ will slow down .
@ June 6, 2013 8:37 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5will the pressure in the system change with differing flows at differing temperatures ? I think so and this is my case for Delta T over Delta P . One can do what the other can and one cannot perform the added function . I will spend my customers money on the higher level of control and options . By the way , I don't know if anyone has noticed but most of the Delta T bashing has been originating from those paid by competitors as far as I can tell through researching the names associated with starting the discussions . Remember that Taco produces both technologies .
@ June 6, 2013 7:00 AM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5offers a choice of Delta T based on product used and installation method . They would like to see 10* for floors unless you are using quiktrak which requires a 20* Delta T , embedded , LW overpour and joist trak are supported at 10* . Warmboard wants 10* , Thermal Trak wants 20* . Am I mistaken or do we design systems using a designed for Delta T ? We no longer have to accept swings in system Delta because we have tools that allow us to more tightly control how our systems operate . We are already changing the SWT to compensate for differing conditions , why make our equipment work at different levels of efficiency . Sure , we could make the Delta T whatever we want and the exchange of BTU from the emitter to the space will change every time we do that .
Same system different pumps , Ready ?
1 zone calling , 10,000 requirement , 20* Delta T , doesn't matter what temp . 1 GPM . Delta T pump .
Same as above @ 12* Delta T , 1.66 GPM .
We can do anything we want like I said but isn't what we are doing primarily about occupant comfort , energy efficiency ? If an emitter performs optimally at a tested flow and we know that flow or Delta will maximize our source efficiency why would we accept less ?
And then there's the electricity used .
Although this paper was written about building practices it applies to us , please read it ,
@ June 5, 2013 9:58 PM in Icynene insulation!!!This has been working for a long time guys .
@ June 5, 2013 9:37 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5Eastman , it does . Certain heat emitters work optimally at a certain Delta . Why would one let Delta run wild and go wherever it wants ? Bad Parents . at 160 or 120 the manufacturer of that emitter wants the same Delta T .
@ June 5, 2013 9:33 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5and BTUs are BTUs . Unless we are using an electric boiler the pump wattage and BTUs have not much to do with each other . A 007 uses X amount of watts and can deliver a wide range of BTUs to the system , it will work on a 170,000 boiler @ 4' of head , and a 75,000 boiler at 8' of head and if those are your requirements it will maintain the designed for Delta T at design conditions at one wattage , but what about the rest of the time when your system really only need be 130,000 or 45,000 , will your Delta T not narrow ? The Delta t pump will have you pretty damn near system requirements ALOT of the time . Let's not get increased electrical efficiency causing guys to make design choices they normally would not . That kinda goes against why this technology was created .
@ June 5, 2013 9:17 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5inevitably end up with at least a few loops or manifolds including S&R that will exceed the head pressures any of these pumps can deliver . Than what , use a 008VDT and save no electricity ?
I must say it is very cool to Know for sure that your radiant panel is operating at it's designed for Delta T . Never could nail that 100% of the time no matter the conditions with Delta P circs , do it regularly with Delta T . Just sayin !
@ June 5, 2013 8:39 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #53/8" tubing ? You like high head pressures and more manifold outlets ?
@ June 5, 2013 8:35 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5Go figure
@ June 5, 2013 8:34 PM in Delta-P/Delta-T Part #5http://jbblog.flopro.taco-hvac.com/lawyers-guns-money/