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Rich

Rich

Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on September 1, 2014

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This means

@ December 8, 2013 3:53 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

you should start researching the consumer fraud protection laws in Mass , contact those who administer the program directives for Mass Saves and tell them about your problems . Next look in the find a contractor place on this site and have it properly addressed by someone qualified to install or repair such a system . Then go about retrieving damages from the guy who cannot read manufacturers specs and that does not know that Taco makes anything other than a 007 .

May I

@ December 8, 2013 3:41 PM in Advice on manifold placement

inquire to who informed you that an 1800 foot square home that is tight would ever require 40 BTU /sq/ft ?  Unless you reside somewhere relatively sub arctic this is a hard number to accept . 
The 006 pump you have there , where is that pump or are they both 006's ?  The 006 is not capable of 72000 BTUs but may be enough pump for 20 K at 3.8 feet head or less .  Gentlemen , am I mistaken or is this circ pumping directly towards the Expansion tank ?  Rice , if this pump is in fact pumping to the right of these photos it should be moved to the other side of the expansion tank . I also don't see a backflow prevention device on the heating side of this arrangement and the pump is also pumping directly toward the pressure reducing valve . Rice , a backflow prevention device is required on this piping so nasty heating water that may have unhealthy things in it don't hurt you and yours . A good place to pipe that PRV to would be to a tee right under the air elimination and add the BFP right before the PRV .  I would also use a TACO Delta T circ instead of the one that is there since all zones are pumped by one device . When you get the right pump in there you may get a lot of velocity noise and be moving too much fluid for beneficial heat transfer to take place .  Check the direction of the pump on the heater side of the Heat exchanger also , does it pump to the bottom of the heater ?  It should , you want your supply water being taken from the top of the water heater where it is the hottest .  We will be here to further assist you .    Is your water heater set to 120 or is the mixing valve ?
  I would also like to say that you have done some very nice looking work here .

Add

@ December 6, 2013 7:05 AM in 1/2" pex homerun to iron rads

all of your GPM requirements , figure out the highest head circuit including all piping and devices .  You can install a single speed circ that closely matches your GPM and flow or you can use a variable speed pump . These methods will get you close to your desired Delta T .  All the pump factories make variable speed pumps , Taco offers the 00VDT series and the Bumble Bee , both are capable of closely monitoring and controlling Delta T. 00 series are not ECM circs and come standard in 008 , 0012 , 0013 .  Bumble Bee is an ECM circ that operates between 9 and 42 watts and can be set up for Delta T operation , constant or setpoint .   Swei is right on point with his Delta recommendations

How

@ December 6, 2013 6:54 AM in radiant floor supplied from return line???

is this system piped ? 

Even heat

@ December 4, 2013 9:49 PM in Cast iron hot water baseboard

you say . Then use a manifold and run homeruns to each room . Monoflo adds too much head to a system and the rooms don't heat as evenly as everyone thinks . With the manifold you can adjust the flow to every piece individually and really do a sweet job . Probably for less time and material also .  What baseboard were you thinking of also .  Why Cast iron ?  Why not this product I linked , made for 5 different piping configs within the baseboard and it's low temp , gonna cost competitive with cast iron maybe a bit less . If Heating Edge is not an option I see no reason why you cant pipe it the way you are thinking . But forget the Monoflo piping , it's just such a worse arrangement than all you have available to you . http://www.smithsenvironmental.com/html/he.html

Imagine that

@ December 4, 2013 9:40 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

Did you run out during a high use period ?  Is there a mixing valve now ? What temp is the water in the tank being stored at ?   You did say you were located in Mass correct ?  Call HTP tomorrow 1-508-763-8071 and get technical on the line and explain your situation to them , tell them boiler size , what pump is being used to supply the coil and ask their opinion .  If you should want to have another look at this maybe we can find you someone local .

Certainly

@ December 4, 2013 9:35 PM in 1/2" pex homerun to iron rads

As long as the 1/2" will provide enough flow to each particular radiator . 

This is

@ December 2, 2013 10:23 PM in BTU Meter

the perfect place for Delta T pumping as part of the arrangement .   All you need is to know the GPM . No lawyer can argue against  A proven equation
   Apt #1      225 Gallons =  2,250,000 BTU  /  10000    or   the dreaded 22.5  THERMS  . No argument can be made at that point .  Run time can present a problem .  This type of system can be hooked right up to a BMS so the utility can generate the bills for each tenant to avoid further hassle .  How do they currently produce DHW ?

HTP

@ December 1, 2013 10:03 AM in need a little information

Versa Flame  or Versa Hydro . Flame is a boiler with  Plate HX for DHW , 130K will easily do 3.2GPM . Versa Hydro is a water heater with 100 K Space heating capability . Both are comparably priced with the heatmaker .  Hope all goes well .

Change

@ November 30, 2013 12:04 AM in Maximizing efficiency of a mod con question

the 15-85's to 008 VDTs , use the 15-85's as emergency pumps for after hours / Sunday service calls , hell they are new . You won't take a bath on several pumps that way but the VDTs will insure your Delta T on the system side at all conditions , all year .  If your system design allows you could use the Bumble Bees and see how each zone is really operating (GPMs and Watts) in real time .   And yes Delta T is important , we design for it . Keep up the search for the perfect system , you may never find it but along the way you'll find excellence . 

Apologies

@ November 29, 2013 11:39 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

In my last post I said 10GPM and meant feet head . Guess I should work or help but not simultaneously .  Bob's choice of a 008 would certainly fit this system , make it a VDT model and it's perfect set at 20* Delta .   baseboard heat help I will send you that chart and maybe myself and the others can explain to you why that choice is really very good.

I agree

@ November 29, 2013 4:49 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

We could use all that boiler can offer at 7.2 GPM . My concern is the head loss of the entire circuit . Will it not exceed 10 GPM ?  It certainly will and this is what must be addressed . I say that at 7.2 GPM and a 20 * ^T we use all that boiler can produce but if we cant move the fluid the Delta will decrease and we will not be harvesting all the energy that plant has to give us .

from Taco of course

@ November 29, 2013 4:01 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/00-3speed_family_curves.pdf

The associated head for this arrangement is at least 11.1 ' . The 2 scenarios are on the attachment . 008  too small , 0010 too small , 0012 is a pain in the ass because the flanges differ from others and it costs , 009 too expensive , obvious Taco choice is 0014 . Am I wrong ?  SSU hx chart is on page 7 of the IOM

Will

@ November 29, 2013 11:46 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

007 add the required mechanical energy to overcome 7.9 feet of head through the heat exchanger even at say 5 or 7.2 GPM ?   Can we ignore the head issue as if it is alright to not be aware of these things when we accept someone's hard earned money or even ratepayer money since this was done through Mass Saves ?  In any event the 007 is not sufficient , agree ?  My point is even making concessions on flow the 007 will never add the required energy needed .  Don't forget the added head from the piping configuration which according to my calculations and HTP's at about 11 - 12 feet .  So, say we want to utilize 7.2 GPM and absorb every bit of energy that boiler has to give and make it run at top efficiency also , the 007 still does make it .

Would also

@ November 29, 2013 12:52 AM in Carbon Monoxide Issues - HELP!

report the inspector who insisted on this device . Your state probably has a regulatory board for such things . Remember all , an inspector is NOT the authority having jurisdiction , he is just a man placed in a position to enforce the states adopted model code .  You and you alone as the licensed professional have a DUTY to disobey the inspector when and if he is wrong . Especially when peoples health and well being are at risk . DPB , I would have an attorney contact the town's attorney also . The original installer at this point should be held liable for all expenses incurred by you to correct this situation . Remember contractors , you must have and use the BALLS God gave you .  If you don't you may one day hear his honor say " Sir , you are a licensed contractor in this state , act like it ! Judgement for the plaintiff "

Good Day my friends

@ November 29, 2013 12:06 AM in Happy Thanksgivikahh !!!

Long day here in Jersey . Hope you all had a great day and I am glad to be in your company .

How To

@ November 28, 2013 11:52 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

read pump curves .  There is a chart specifically for you attached , this should help . I drew the lines up and over for the minimum requirement for your DHW tank .  I am also attaching 2 links for you in case you have been kept from them so you can state your case on Wednesday .  The first is from HTP's website and depicts that the supply to the heating coil in all SuperStor indirects is always the top tapping and the lower is always the return , http://www.htproducts.com/superstorultraspecifications.html
The second is the install manual for Superstor tanks , please see page 13 which will give you a chart of total developed lengths of some common piping configurations for these units , the top chart is for 1 inch pipe including various fittings and piping lengths , my opinion on your particular install after considering this chart is that even the 0015 may not be enough pump for your system and may require a 0014 , smaller number , more pump . Of course you can determine better than I what your pipe lengths are from the pump to the tank and you can also count the fittings , Again after the chart , in the next few pages are a number of piping diagrams again depicting what is the supply port and return port for the SuperStors .
 http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-83.pdf       I do hope this all helps you in your quest for hot water . I will add that you should request that the water in the tank be stored at an elevated temperature (150) and a mixing device added to boost your storage capacity and your delivery . This boiler is a bit undersized for this tank also as per manufacturer so I would insist on that so you may enjoy this system as best you can .
Don't forget your real issue , The heat . Make sure they change that line with the pump so it enters the header in the left tee .  Have a good weekend .

Bob

@ November 27, 2013 9:26 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

good catch . the pumped line needs to enter the header on the left .  I sent you a pump curve chart which you should print . Here is another attachment you should also print to show to the installer side by side and ask him to explain how this 007 will be sufficient for this SSU-45 ?  If you need help in reading a pump curve we can assist , it is very easy . Not many guys actually do it though as you have now witnessed first hand .
Bob is also spot on about the possibility of an extra for the DHW mixing device . Not all installers actually practice best practices and this may be billable , I would however ask for it Gratis for your inconvenience , Call it Tuition ( Dan H "")for this company .   Funny thing about this whole indirect thing is that I was at a meeting with HTP Reps and the #4 man at HTP , we were discussing all the poor design and stupid mistakes we encounter on a daily basis .  Tell them also just switch the T Stat wires on the zone valves .  Sorry the document is upside down , guess you'll have to stand on your head .  Don't forget that the top tapping of the indirect is the supply , that is piped backwards also .

Wrong Email

@ November 27, 2013 9:26 AM in sandy revisited

Johnny that E mail is dmcgrath , I believe I typed it wrong in my PM.

0015 MSF 2

@ November 27, 2013 8:34 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

is sufficient for the boiler pump .  For domestic hot water ,0010 shows that it should perform by the pump curves from Taco , a 0015 MFS 2 would also be a good choice for the DHW , possibly a better choice in all actuality .
  I do not understand many of these programs  Why would a Mass program ignore a locally manufactured product that is equivalent or better than another product manufactured in another state . I would look to the installing contractor for this mystery .  What is your zip code ?

0010

@ November 26, 2013 11:05 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

will flow your required 10 GPM at 9 ft of head where as the 007 will only give you 10 GPM with a head no greater than 7ft . 007 is not enough pump for the job .  It always amazes me also that local plumbers in Mass would not use HTP boilers that are manufactured right in East Freetown , especially since they are using their indirects .  The black pump as far as I can tell is not furnished with the boiler , This pump if sized incorrectly can cause real problems .  This pump as per Burnham should be Taco 0015 on speed #3 .























That

@ November 26, 2013 10:52 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

saying is always there and has been for quite sometime , it is very similar as Mr Eatherton's below his name . 
    OK . The SSU-45 indirect requires 10 GPM at 7.9 ft head as per the manufacturer and the boiler water during DHW production must be 180* . I install HTP almost exclusively .  Your plumber used a check valve in the supply line which is piped to the wrong tapping (supply should be the top) which adds head to overcome with the pump . The 007 will not meet these requirements , the 0010 would have been my choice .  Another thing about indirects is that you are well served if one stores the water in the tank at 140*-160* and mixes that water down to 115*-120* , this practice increases your storage capacity and will most probably give you all the water that you require . Has worked for me and my end users without fail . I use Taco 5000 series DHW mixing valves . This pump must be changed for the properly sized pump .  Below I attached the language about this pump selection directly out of the Alpine Manual .
58 103448-02 - 6/13
58 103448-02 - 6/13
Figure 38: Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater
VI. Water Piping and Trim C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)
CAUTION
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
and boiler piping configurations that provide the
proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
and indirect water heater.

  As far as the heating goes in the house I agree with all said above . Maybe the outdoor reset is not set at the proper ratio or was not programmed properly by the installer .  Where are you located ?  Also , VERY IMPORTANT , could you tell me the model number on the Black pump ?
  
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