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Rich

Rich

Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on August 28, 2014

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This is

@ December 2, 2013 10:23 PM in BTU Meter

the perfect place for Delta T pumping as part of the arrangement .   All you need is to know the GPM . No lawyer can argue against  A proven equation
   Apt #1      225 Gallons =  2,250,000 BTU  /  10000    or   the dreaded 22.5  THERMS  . No argument can be made at that point .  Run time can present a problem .  This type of system can be hooked right up to a BMS so the utility can generate the bills for each tenant to avoid further hassle .  How do they currently produce DHW ?

HTP

@ December 1, 2013 10:03 AM in need a little information

Versa Flame  or Versa Hydro . Flame is a boiler with  Plate HX for DHW , 130K will easily do 3.2GPM . Versa Hydro is a water heater with 100 K Space heating capability . Both are comparably priced with the heatmaker .  Hope all goes well .

Change

@ November 30, 2013 12:04 AM in Maximizing efficiency of a mod con question

the 15-85's to 008 VDTs , use the 15-85's as emergency pumps for after hours / Sunday service calls , hell they are new . You won't take a bath on several pumps that way but the VDTs will insure your Delta T on the system side at all conditions , all year .  If your system design allows you could use the Bumble Bees and see how each zone is really operating (GPMs and Watts) in real time .   And yes Delta T is important , we design for it . Keep up the search for the perfect system , you may never find it but along the way you'll find excellence . 

Apologies

@ November 29, 2013 11:39 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

In my last post I said 10GPM and meant feet head . Guess I should work or help but not simultaneously .  Bob's choice of a 008 would certainly fit this system , make it a VDT model and it's perfect set at 20* Delta .   baseboard heat help I will send you that chart and maybe myself and the others can explain to you why that choice is really very good.

I agree

@ November 29, 2013 4:49 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

We could use all that boiler can offer at 7.2 GPM . My concern is the head loss of the entire circuit . Will it not exceed 10 GPM ?  It certainly will and this is what must be addressed . I say that at 7.2 GPM and a 20 * ^T we use all that boiler can produce but if we cant move the fluid the Delta will decrease and we will not be harvesting all the energy that plant has to give us .

from Taco of course

@ November 29, 2013 4:01 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/00-3speed_family_curves.pdf

The associated head for this arrangement is at least 11.1 ' . The 2 scenarios are on the attachment . 008  too small , 0010 too small , 0012 is a pain in the ass because the flanges differ from others and it costs , 009 too expensive , obvious Taco choice is 0014 . Am I wrong ?  SSU hx chart is on page 7 of the IOM

Will

@ November 29, 2013 11:46 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

007 add the required mechanical energy to overcome 7.9 feet of head through the heat exchanger even at say 5 or 7.2 GPM ?   Can we ignore the head issue as if it is alright to not be aware of these things when we accept someone's hard earned money or even ratepayer money since this was done through Mass Saves ?  In any event the 007 is not sufficient , agree ?  My point is even making concessions on flow the 007 will never add the required energy needed .  Don't forget the added head from the piping configuration which according to my calculations and HTP's at about 11 - 12 feet .  So, say we want to utilize 7.2 GPM and absorb every bit of energy that boiler has to give and make it run at top efficiency also , the 007 still does make it .

Would also

@ November 29, 2013 12:52 AM in Carbon Monoxide Issues - HELP!

report the inspector who insisted on this device . Your state probably has a regulatory board for such things . Remember all , an inspector is NOT the authority having jurisdiction , he is just a man placed in a position to enforce the states adopted model code .  You and you alone as the licensed professional have a DUTY to disobey the inspector when and if he is wrong . Especially when peoples health and well being are at risk . DPB , I would have an attorney contact the town's attorney also . The original installer at this point should be held liable for all expenses incurred by you to correct this situation . Remember contractors , you must have and use the BALLS God gave you .  If you don't you may one day hear his honor say " Sir , you are a licensed contractor in this state , act like it ! Judgement for the plaintiff "

Good Day my friends

@ November 29, 2013 12:06 AM in Happy Thanksgivikahh !!!

Long day here in Jersey . Hope you all had a great day and I am glad to be in your company .

How To

@ November 28, 2013 11:52 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

read pump curves .  There is a chart specifically for you attached , this should help . I drew the lines up and over for the minimum requirement for your DHW tank .  I am also attaching 2 links for you in case you have been kept from them so you can state your case on Wednesday .  The first is from HTP's website and depicts that the supply to the heating coil in all SuperStor indirects is always the top tapping and the lower is always the return , http://www.htproducts.com/superstorultraspecifications.html
The second is the install manual for Superstor tanks , please see page 13 which will give you a chart of total developed lengths of some common piping configurations for these units , the top chart is for 1 inch pipe including various fittings and piping lengths , my opinion on your particular install after considering this chart is that even the 0015 may not be enough pump for your system and may require a 0014 , smaller number , more pump . Of course you can determine better than I what your pipe lengths are from the pump to the tank and you can also count the fittings , Again after the chart , in the next few pages are a number of piping diagrams again depicting what is the supply port and return port for the SuperStors .
 http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-83.pdf       I do hope this all helps you in your quest for hot water . I will add that you should request that the water in the tank be stored at an elevated temperature (150) and a mixing device added to boost your storage capacity and your delivery . This boiler is a bit undersized for this tank also as per manufacturer so I would insist on that so you may enjoy this system as best you can .
Don't forget your real issue , The heat . Make sure they change that line with the pump so it enters the header in the left tee .  Have a good weekend .

Bob

@ November 27, 2013 9:26 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

good catch . the pumped line needs to enter the header on the left .  I sent you a pump curve chart which you should print . Here is another attachment you should also print to show to the installer side by side and ask him to explain how this 007 will be sufficient for this SSU-45 ?  If you need help in reading a pump curve we can assist , it is very easy . Not many guys actually do it though as you have now witnessed first hand .
Bob is also spot on about the possibility of an extra for the DHW mixing device . Not all installers actually practice best practices and this may be billable , I would however ask for it Gratis for your inconvenience , Call it Tuition ( Dan H "")for this company .   Funny thing about this whole indirect thing is that I was at a meeting with HTP Reps and the #4 man at HTP , we were discussing all the poor design and stupid mistakes we encounter on a daily basis .  Tell them also just switch the T Stat wires on the zone valves .  Sorry the document is upside down , guess you'll have to stand on your head .  Don't forget that the top tapping of the indirect is the supply , that is piped backwards also .

Wrong Email

@ November 27, 2013 9:26 AM in sandy revisited

Johnny that E mail is dmcgrath , I believe I typed it wrong in my PM.

0015 MSF 2

@ November 27, 2013 8:34 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

is sufficient for the boiler pump .  For domestic hot water ,0010 shows that it should perform by the pump curves from Taco , a 0015 MFS 2 would also be a good choice for the DHW , possibly a better choice in all actuality .
  I do not understand many of these programs  Why would a Mass program ignore a locally manufactured product that is equivalent or better than another product manufactured in another state . I would look to the installing contractor for this mystery .  What is your zip code ?

0010

@ November 26, 2013 11:05 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

will flow your required 10 GPM at 9 ft of head where as the 007 will only give you 10 GPM with a head no greater than 7ft . 007 is not enough pump for the job .  It always amazes me also that local plumbers in Mass would not use HTP boilers that are manufactured right in East Freetown , especially since they are using their indirects .  The black pump as far as I can tell is not furnished with the boiler , This pump if sized incorrectly can cause real problems .  This pump as per Burnham should be Taco 0015 on speed #3 .























That

@ November 26, 2013 10:52 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

saying is always there and has been for quite sometime , it is very similar as Mr Eatherton's below his name . 
    OK . The SSU-45 indirect requires 10 GPM at 7.9 ft head as per the manufacturer and the boiler water during DHW production must be 180* . I install HTP almost exclusively .  Your plumber used a check valve in the supply line which is piped to the wrong tapping (supply should be the top) which adds head to overcome with the pump . The 007 will not meet these requirements , the 0010 would have been my choice .  Another thing about indirects is that you are well served if one stores the water in the tank at 140*-160* and mixes that water down to 115*-120* , this practice increases your storage capacity and will most probably give you all the water that you require . Has worked for me and my end users without fail . I use Taco 5000 series DHW mixing valves . This pump must be changed for the properly sized pump .  Below I attached the language about this pump selection directly out of the Alpine Manual .
58 103448-02 - 6/13
58 103448-02 - 6/13
Figure 38: Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater
VI. Water Piping and Trim C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)
CAUTION
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
and boiler piping configurations that provide the
proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
and indirect water heater.

  As far as the heating goes in the house I agree with all said above . Maybe the outdoor reset is not set at the proper ratio or was not programmed properly by the installer .  Where are you located ?  Also , VERY IMPORTANT , could you tell me the model number on the Black pump ?
  

Green Vertical

@ November 26, 2013 10:26 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

pump . Should have the model number right on the cover . Number beginning with 00 , possibly 007 , 0010

What size

@ November 26, 2013 10:09 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

SuperStor is that ? Also is the pump in fact a 007 for the indirect ? Please tell the model number of Indirect also ,  SSU-45DW , SSU-45 would be an example of needed information

Information

@ November 25, 2013 9:34 PM in Problems with TACO Bumble Bee HEC-2

What is the fluid in this system ? 100% water , is there glycol ?  Are the ball valves we see full port , are there lots of fittings ? What is the air side charge on the expansion tank , what is the average fluid temp ?  One thing that jumps out at me is the 51000 BTUh @ 12 ' , the HEC-2 will not perform that task , EVER .   

What are

@ November 21, 2013 7:24 AM in New addition/baseboards in an old house--balance

the heat loss characteristics of the new room ?  We need dimensions , length of exposed walls and what windows/doors are in those walls , ceiling height , heated above and/or below , insulation values in walls , ceiling , floor .  This room being in a home that has radiators to start with sounds like a great place for panel rads . Can't tell anything without the above information however . Also where are you located ?

C.O.P

@ November 21, 2013 7:14 AM in Heat tranfer plates

Be mindful of the COP of the unit you are installing also . What I mean by that is don't just do something because the unit says it will provide 110* water . I have been asked to fix jobs that were underperforming or operating at high electrical usage to keep up . Many of these units will provide the SWTs that are required on cold days but do it at a greatly reduced coefficient of performance which simply means it isn't doing what you wanted it to for the low cost that you thought .  COP below 4 is something to make every attempt to avoid .  That being said I would advise you to look for products that go on top of sub floor and directly below your finished floor , I would also advise you that thicker products take longer to heat therefore make the HP work harder before giving you or the space to be heated any benefit , Mass is not your friend in this instance . You want a thinner product that heats rapidly and transfers that heat to the space faster .  By the way the thin plates you inquired about would be better for this job also since they are wider and have a larger contact area with the subfloor . I would stay away from both products if I were you and was using the technology that you are  . 

200 BTU per ft

@ November 19, 2013 9:40 PM in Old baseboards....Flat with no fins....can't heat house to 67 degrees

is what you have at 170* . Take a look at this , have someone perform a room by room heat loss . Looks like someone found something cool looking and clean and installed without ever knowing if it would work . Did you say you just bought this home ?  This stuff should be run with constant circulation at a 10* Delta T and please everyone stop using setback . I DOES NOT I REPEAT DOES NOT save money nor fuel .  4 way mixing valve and constant circulation may get you where you need to go . Or you could replace with Heating Edge baseboard from Smiths Environmental , you will only need to cut out existing and reconnect with appropriate fittings that will give you 813 BTU per ft at 170* and 1 GPM .
 http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/getattachment/c19becec-22c5-46bb-aeae-355c18e424f4/RadiantPanel-Installation-Guide.aspx

No Insulation

@ November 19, 2013 4:28 PM in Under floor hydronic hydronic radiant heat

below the QuikTrak ?  If not it is my opinion that to address this situation you must start over . You have the aluminum at the bottom of the quik trak panel and there is too much downward loss . In short your slab is colder than the air in the room and the part with the wider Delta T will receive more heat transfer . This is unfortunate .  If you have a half inch to play with I would suggest you take the Pergo floor and insulation up nicely , unscrew the Quik Trak and save as much as you can  . use enough self leveling product as is necessary , put 1/2 XPS foam boards on top of the slab , re install the QuikTrak and tubing then re install your floor .  That big cold slab will only steal the heat forever otherwise . Good Luck
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