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Rich

Rich

Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on July 31, 2014

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The code man

@ October 19, 2013 12:14 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

is a Schmuck .  
Here is my take on a solution that is not too difficult and fits with your lifestyle and chosen setup .
 
Central to this system is a Heat-Flo HF-60-D tank (2 coils) .  Cast iron boiler feeds the bottom coil , water in tank is heated to 180* , this tank is your storage tank and as DHW is used it is mixed down to 115* via a Taco 5000 DHW mixing valve , when heat is required pump ( Dt) with Taco I Series ODR mixing valve on suction side gives you outdoor reset and you only use the required BTU for that moment in time . the heat exchanger for this operation is the top coil .  Control is a high / low limit aquastat that shuts off at 180* tank temp and fires boiler when tank temp is 150* . Both pumps could probably be Bumble Bees that would consume a whopping 44 watts combined when really working hard .
  Just a suggestion

I am Aware

@ October 18, 2013 9:11 PM in why use primary/secondary if not needed?

of the definition of Extrapolation . Many of my home performance friends like to extrapolate all kinds of things while MODELING homes that live in the software on their computer  I unfortunately have the task of keeping REAL people in Real houses during Real winters (possibly harsher than what you extrapolated for ) comfortable in their houses . I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from these well intentioned nerds that it worked in the model .  Funny thing about the systems we are talking about is the fact that in a harsh winter their efficiencies vary from not so cold times . No extrapolation is best left to scientists and guys in offices . When most of us design and install systems we want the customers to be warm on every day no matter what the outdoor conditions and second we , well I don't wanna be bothered with people that need toi where a sweater like a European telling me I did not do good enough .
Delta T varies on the amount of heat actually being emitted through the system . Supply water temp has nothing to do with Delta T . If the SWT is 90 and the Delta T is 20* and you are pumping 2.9 GPM the space used 29,000 BTU and if the temp stayed the same and you pumped 5.6 GPM the space received 56,000 BTU . I would hardly call that hardly pumping and in fact would call it efficient pumping and only using what you need and xconserving energy . So in April and October I guess using only 9/22/32/42 watts to give you what you need damn near to the enth degree really sucks huh ? 

What

@ October 18, 2013 8:55 PM in underfloor heating in a multi-family building

tubing was used for the in floor panels ?   Any chance of you allowing us to view the near boiler piping and pumping arrangement ?  And as above where are you located ?

Zman

@ October 17, 2013 7:36 PM in Heat loss for logs?

is good . Pine is 1.3 R per inch . But it can cut both ways being a thermal bridge .

Be most

@ October 17, 2013 4:47 PM in head loss for mono-flo

concerned with the Big loop , water has no choice but to flow through the emitters . Are there 2 MF tees per emitter (cringe) ? If so you are gonna need a hell of a pump .  The tee is measured through the run of the fitting .  They are not low loss systems as previously mentioned .

Be sure

@ October 17, 2013 4:36 PM in why use primary/secondary if not needed?

you did not extrapolate and log that information during mild winters or you may end up with XX BTUs in a YY BTU winter .   A little more research and thought quite possibly would have led you or your contractor to the HTP Pioneer that certainly does not require P/S piping . You may also want to use a Taco Bumble Bee on the emitter side of what you are now purchasing , with that big pipe and low hydraulic pressure Rads you should be able to get what you need . Tell your contractor to do the math to determine if all will work .  If you are not comfortable with the contractor and his ability to provide you the knowledge , talent and integrity to install this new equipment , get another one .

For reference

@ October 16, 2013 10:51 PM in head loss for mono-flo

The hydraulic resistance of a 3/4" B & G Monoflo tee is equivalent to 70 Ft of pipe , a 1" is 23.5ft and an 1 1/4 is 25 ft. .  Stay outta trouble .

Can you say

@ October 16, 2013 10:44 PM in gpm

Snow melt using a Bumble Bee Circ . 42 watts to melt snow ? If you can keep the head pressure in the S&R section below 4 ft you can use the Bumble Bee for this system and keep the Delta T wherever you want it .

I See

@ October 16, 2013 10:32 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

you have Ht Products as something that is available to you . Look at their combined heat and hot water tab and see if the Versa Flame might not fit your needs . It is a high mass (55gal) mod con boiler that does not require primary / secondary (1 pump) , I would switch out the 87 watt pump you have there and install a Taco Bumble Bee (HEC-2) . This unit also has a flat plate heat exchanger that employs a pump on the boiler side to heat DHW . Not as expensive as many of the options being discussed and you're only gonna be adding about 22 watts to your consumption . Due to the high mass you can program it so that it fires minimally conserving your fuel also .  tell me what ya think  

How Many

@ October 13, 2013 7:46 PM in Different take on tankless vs buffered

zones of heat and what is the smallest zone on design day ?  Really must have this to further discussion .  You can get more DHW using a storage type tank than with a tankless . 3 way diverting  valves in tankless combi are problematic . I have changed no less than 7 of them in 18 months (Navien) . That what you want ?

Sensibility

@ October 13, 2013 5:04 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heating

After much research on your part I would guess you decided to go with radiant heating for comfort and efficiency . Correct me if I am mistaken .  You did some research on the internet and found Ultra Fin and the marketing and the promise of a more economical install and first cost caught your attention . Welcome to the wortd of marketing or as I like to call it , SPIN.. Our industry is full of it , everyone on The Wall can verify this .  Think about this , water can and does carry 3,470 x more heat than an equivalent unit of air . You will be depending on heating a huge mass of air that does not hold heat well before you will feel a damn thing . To put it in size terms , your home is 6000 sq feet , all radiant , 4 inch air space acting as your heating medium , all that air must be heated before any meaningful heat transfer can take place . You are in essence heating an 82.5 sq ft room that does not exist all the time and this room must satisfy before any of the real rooms get any heat that you will perceive . Sound efficient to you ?   That air space will also cool very rapidly after the thermostat satisfies and it will start all over again . It will require water temps that are not conducive to condensing equipment so you will lose that efficiency factor also .  It is just all around not a good idea in my opinion and I am not alone

Mike

@ October 13, 2013 4:44 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heating

I contacted you privately . If you wish please contact me with the information I sent you by phone or email .  I am in Jersey and can possibly assist you

Mike

@ October 13, 2013 4:00 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heating

Where in NY are you ?   You could have this designed by someone and then find a competent installer in your area .  You said The fine people at Ultra Fin designed a system for you . May I ask if they performed a room by room heat loss of the property ? If they did not they have no idea what to design unless you sent them ALL the INFORMATION REQUIRED to perform the heat loss calculations .

I beleive

@ October 12, 2013 9:38 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

the problem may be with documentation of the system gentlemen . Canada had the same problems with bad design that we have and at present all jobs must be engineered / designed / approved and I mean if you install a different circ than what is on the plan , YOU FAIL , Period . Not sure this is what is happening but Canada embraces innovation as long as it can be shown to be sufficient . there must be some issue with the install .

What

@ October 12, 2013 9:08 PM in A flow problem

could the total system flow be at design ?  How many BTU is the entire load of the building ?  

it looks

@ October 12, 2013 10:29 AM in A flow problem

like the sensor for the I Series is on the zone valve header Bob .  Nathan  You have given us the numbers for one manifold , what are the GPM requirements for the others along with the one you have told us about ?  That 008 VDT will only pump in the mid to high 7 GPM range at 10.? feet of head . If your requirements for the whole system exceed those GPM for all manifolds you will need to increase the pump size .  I do not believe that you will have the control over Delta T that you were hoping to accomplish in any case with only the single circulator .  

Nathan ,

@ October 12, 2013 9:49 AM in A flow problem

This pump must be located within the mixed temp portion of the piping arrangement , it seems as though none of these manifolds /loops will be receiving even a fraction of the heated water they require . You also must install some means of purging the air from this system .  If these zone valves all have a manifold at the other end of them with multiple loops you better be sure that what you described to us is in fact the greatest head pressure in the system and remember to add all GPM rates . When multiple manifolds are served by a single circ the head losses for all should be pretty close to each other , I am not certain that the Deltas will be as tightly controlled as I am sure you had wished either . Again , start out with purge set up and relocating that pump between the Zone valves and the I Series .  After performing these things let us know how it is responding then .

Nathan

@ October 12, 2013 7:39 AM in A flow problem

When you said you set pump to full speed , what do you mean ?  Check all your values again also  .

Bob

@ October 12, 2013 7:35 AM in A flow problem

I can certainly see your reasoning , explained in that way .  I have been doing this when it makes sense for quite awhile and have not encountered the problem you anticipate yet .  I also use the smallest I Series possible without making head losses too great for pump to deal with and let the Delta T pump do its' job , the pump will be dealing with Delta T's that are always changing regardless of mixing method or where it is done . Many are using the I Series within injection loops with great success , Taco also supports this use . Should we never use a Delta T circ there either ?  The supply temp should not change that much if at all during a call for heat and it should not be and is not an issue thus far on my systems . Using a  device that is smaller than the piping it will be connected to is not an issue either and in fact is desirable , you lessen the amount of water that it has to regulate allowing it to achieve the proper temperature faster . As long as you don't go with a Cv that is too low .  Maybe this makes sense to yourself and Carl , hope it does .      

CIBB

@ October 11, 2013 8:38 PM in Looking for a decent boiler w/ indirect

If you are intent on using a mod con boiler make sure you put install much more baseboard then you require . If you install to match the load you will have to run temps that are too high for your efficient boiler to be efficient . It will operate at about 86 - 88% . That would be a shame and a waste of your money .   Also listen to Ironman . Better you don't allow your friend to do this or you may not be friends for long , the fact he is hesitant to recommend speaks volumes . Remember  "Skilled labor aint cheap and cheap labor aint skilled "

Ironman

@ October 11, 2013 8:30 PM in A flow problem

Could you clarify what you were trying to say in that comment ?  The I series regulates temp and will flow whatever the circ pulls through it .

Chazbo

@ October 11, 2013 7:36 AM in The best pipe dope.

Dope isn't messy my friend , installers are .  Some very interesting comments from years past on this thread . I do not work for any supplier or manufacturer and am an installer like all here.  If leaks and neatness are what count and money is not an issue or your main concern you should be using an anaroebic sealant like  Permabond LH050 . In the hands of a mechanic it is a fine tool. Hey , even the gas company guys who only know meter sets and hookups don't get leaks with it , there's a reason the gas companies use it .  It is also easier to remove later if necessary
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