Joined on May 27, 2011
Last Post on December 12, 2013
@ November 29, 2013 12:06 AM in Happy Thanksgivikahh !!!Long day here in Jersey . Hope you all had a great day and I am glad to be in your company .
@ November 28, 2013 11:52 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingread pump curves . There is a chart specifically for you attached , this should help . I drew the lines up and over for the minimum requirement for your DHW tank . I am also attaching 2 links for you in case you have been kept from them so you can state your case on Wednesday . The first is from HTP's website and depicts that the supply to the heating coil in all SuperStor indirects is always the top tapping and the lower is always the return , http://www.htproducts.com/superstorultraspecifications.html
The second is the install manual for Superstor tanks , please see page 13 which will give you a chart of total developed lengths of some common piping configurations for these units , the top chart is for 1 inch pipe including various fittings and piping lengths , my opinion on your particular install after considering this chart is that even the 0015 may not be enough pump for your system and may require a 0014 , smaller number , more pump . Of course you can determine better than I what your pipe lengths are from the pump to the tank and you can also count the fittings , Again after the chart , in the next few pages are a number of piping diagrams again depicting what is the supply port and return port for the SuperStors .
http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-83.pdf I do hope this all helps you in your quest for hot water . I will add that you should request that the water in the tank be stored at an elevated temperature (150) and a mixing device added to boost your storage capacity and your delivery . This boiler is a bit undersized for this tank also as per manufacturer so I would insist on that so you may enjoy this system as best you can .
Don't forget your real issue , The heat . Make sure they change that line with the pump so it enters the header in the left tee . Have a good weekend .
@ November 27, 2013 9:26 PM in Hot water baseboard heatinggood catch . the pumped line needs to enter the header on the left . I sent you a pump curve chart which you should print . Here is another attachment you should also print to show to the installer side by side and ask him to explain how this 007 will be sufficient for this SSU-45 ? If you need help in reading a pump curve we can assist , it is very easy . Not many guys actually do it though as you have now witnessed first hand .
Bob is also spot on about the possibility of an extra for the DHW mixing device . Not all installers actually practice best practices and this may be billable , I would however ask for it Gratis for your inconvenience , Call it Tuition ( Dan H "")for this company . Funny thing about this whole indirect thing is that I was at a meeting with HTP Reps and the #4 man at HTP , we were discussing all the poor design and stupid mistakes we encounter on a daily basis . Tell them also just switch the T Stat wires on the zone valves . Sorry the document is upside down , guess you'll have to stand on your head . Don't forget that the top tapping of the indirect is the supply , that is piped backwards also .
@ November 27, 2013 9:26 AM in sandy revisitedJohnny that E mail is dmcgrath , I believe I typed it wrong in my PM.
@ November 27, 2013 8:34 AM in Hot water baseboard heatingis sufficient for the boiler pump . For domestic hot water ,0010 shows that it should perform by the pump curves from Taco , a 0015 MFS 2 would also be a good choice for the DHW , possibly a better choice in all actuality .
I do not understand many of these programs Why would a Mass program ignore a locally manufactured product that is equivalent or better than another product manufactured in another state . I would look to the installing contractor for this mystery . What is your zip code ?
@ November 26, 2013 11:05 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingwill flow your required 10 GPM at 9 ft of head where as the 007 will only give you 10 GPM with a head no greater than 7ft . 007 is not enough pump for the job . It always amazes me also that local plumbers in Mass would not use HTP boilers that are manufactured right in East Freetown , especially since they are using their indirects . The black pump as far as I can tell is not furnished with the boiler , This pump if sized incorrectly can cause real problems . This pump as per Burnham should be Taco 0015 on speed #3 .
@ November 26, 2013 10:52 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingsaying is always there and has been for quite sometime , it is very similar as Mr Eatherton's below his name .
OK . The SSU-45 indirect requires 10 GPM at 7.9 ft head as per the manufacturer and the boiler water during DHW production must be 180* . I install HTP almost exclusively . Your plumber used a check valve in the supply line which is piped to the wrong tapping (supply should be the top) which adds head to overcome with the pump . The 007 will not meet these requirements , the 0010 would have been my choice . Another thing about indirects is that you are well served if one stores the water in the tank at 140*-160* and mixes that water down to 115*-120* , this practice increases your storage capacity and will most probably give you all the water that you require . Has worked for me and my end users without fail . I use Taco 5000 series DHW mixing valves . This pump must be changed for the properly sized pump . Below I attached the language about this pump selection directly out of the Alpine Manual .
58 103448-02 - 6/13
58 103448-02 - 6/13
Figure 38: Near Boiler Piping - Heating Plus Indirect Water Heater
VI. Water Piping and Trim C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)C. Standard Installation Requirements (continued)
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
and boiler piping configurations that provide the
proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
and indirect water heater.
As far as the heating goes in the house I agree with all said above . Maybe the outdoor reset is not set at the proper ratio or was not programmed properly by the installer . Where are you located ? Also , VERY IMPORTANT , could you tell me the model number on the Black pump ?
@ November 26, 2013 10:26 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingpump . Should have the model number right on the cover . Number beginning with 00 , possibly 007 , 0010
@ November 26, 2013 10:09 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingSuperStor is that ? Also is the pump in fact a 007 for the indirect ? Please tell the model number of Indirect also , SSU-45DW , SSU-45 would be an example of needed information
@ November 25, 2013 9:34 PM in Problems with TACO Bumble Bee HEC-2What is the fluid in this system ? 100% water , is there glycol ? Are the ball valves we see full port , are there lots of fittings ? What is the air side charge on the expansion tank , what is the average fluid temp ? One thing that jumps out at me is the 51000 BTUh @ 12 ' , the HEC-2 will not perform that task , EVER .
@ November 21, 2013 7:24 AM in New addition/baseboards in an old house--balancethe heat loss characteristics of the new room ? We need dimensions , length of exposed walls and what windows/doors are in those walls , ceiling height , heated above and/or below , insulation values in walls , ceiling , floor . This room being in a home that has radiators to start with sounds like a great place for panel rads . Can't tell anything without the above information however . Also where are you located ?
@ November 21, 2013 7:14 AM in Heat tranfer platesBe mindful of the COP of the unit you are installing also . What I mean by that is don't just do something because the unit says it will provide 110* water . I have been asked to fix jobs that were underperforming or operating at high electrical usage to keep up . Many of these units will provide the SWTs that are required on cold days but do it at a greatly reduced coefficient of performance which simply means it isn't doing what you wanted it to for the low cost that you thought . COP below 4 is something to make every attempt to avoid . That being said I would advise you to look for products that go on top of sub floor and directly below your finished floor , I would also advise you that thicker products take longer to heat therefore make the HP work harder before giving you or the space to be heated any benefit , Mass is not your friend in this instance . You want a thinner product that heats rapidly and transfers that heat to the space faster . By the way the thin plates you inquired about would be better for this job also since they are wider and have a larger contact area with the subfloor . I would stay away from both products if I were you and was using the technology that you are .
@ November 19, 2013 9:40 PM in Old baseboards....Flat with no fins....can't heat house to 67 degreesis what you have at 170* . Take a look at this , have someone perform a room by room heat loss . Looks like someone found something cool looking and clean and installed without ever knowing if it would work . Did you say you just bought this home ? This stuff should be run with constant circulation at a 10* Delta T and please everyone stop using setback . I DOES NOT I REPEAT DOES NOT save money nor fuel . 4 way mixing valve and constant circulation may get you where you need to go . Or you could replace with Heating Edge baseboard from Smiths Environmental , you will only need to cut out existing and reconnect with appropriate fittings that will give you 813 BTU per ft at 170* and 1 GPM .
@ November 19, 2013 4:28 PM in Under floor hydronic hydronic radiant heatbelow the QuikTrak ? If not it is my opinion that to address this situation you must start over . You have the aluminum at the bottom of the quik trak panel and there is too much downward loss . In short your slab is colder than the air in the room and the part with the wider Delta T will receive more heat transfer . This is unfortunate . If you have a half inch to play with I would suggest you take the Pergo floor and insulation up nicely , unscrew the Quik Trak and save as much as you can . use enough self leveling product as is necessary , put 1/2 XPS foam boards on top of the slab , re install the QuikTrak and tubing then re install your floor . That big cold slab will only steal the heat forever otherwise . Good Luck
@ November 18, 2013 5:51 PM in monofloWeez . ECMs really do have issues with nasties that can be attracted to them and foul them up in a hurry .
@ November 18, 2013 5:38 PM in What unit to use with panel rads and sidearmhow expensive HTP is . Don't quite understand why I keep hearing that , I am in the largest most expensive market there is and I find quite economical . Oh well , have at it my friend
@ November 18, 2013 8:22 AM in monoflomake an effort to design system so the system curve runs through center 1/3 of pump curve . Paul for the Bee that would be in a range 3 gpm @ 2.5' HD and 7 gpm @ 8 ' HD , that system curve takes you dead through the sweet spot in variable speed or constant T mode . Swei would be correct about operating at the bottom of the curve . Your wire to water efficiency would also suck .
@ November 17, 2013 3:52 PM in New Construction Tankless Heatingnotice that this system piping configuration has changed in the pic w/o controls to the pic with controls ? The top 2 loops supply in the first pic is fed directly through the run of a tee and the latter pic has a 90* feeding that supply .
@ November 17, 2013 3:42 PM in monofloset up as Constant T has a curve similar to 003 when operating at 9 watts and like the 008 when operating at it's peak 42 watts . The 2 curves between those are not really comparable with any other 00 family circulator . Have no idea what you'll need in the way of flow / head for this , just pointing out differing HEC-2 curves .
@ November 17, 2013 2:57 PM in New Construction Tankless Heatingseems to have set up the system using red for supply (hot) and blue for return (cool) . This can only be done by joinng lengths of red and blue tubing therefore creating a buried joint or possibly joint not buried but in either case a potential leak path that was otherwise not necessary . The upper and lower rows are both space heating . The mixing valve directly below the heater is your hot main and the pipe coming into that valve from the right is cold potable water .
@ November 17, 2013 10:37 AM in New Construction Tankless HeatingIf this heat exchanger and the circulator are not stainless steel you will have problems . Does this system have a pressure reducing valve and backflow preventer , I cannot identify that there is or is not one from the pictures , but I am damn near blind . O also don't see any air elimination which would certainly be a good thing due to the use of potable water tubing . This is possibly the first system I have ever seen where measures were taken (HX) to isolate open and closed portions from each other and then use tubing that allows air into the system Carl and Paul , is that the PRV and BFP between the Expansion tank and HX ?
@ November 17, 2013 10:10 AM in What unit to use with panel rads and sidearmwant to look at the HTP Phoenix with a solar HX . You could use the solar HX to heat the tank ( hold out burner) , store in the tank at 160* , you could store higher with the commercial unit . Set your wood buffer to pump when either DHW or space heating call . The Phoenix will act as the middleman , a middleman that when your primary source does not deliver will gladly manufacture and deliver what you need . The Phoenix has 2 standard outlets on the side which are expressly for hydronic heating of varying types NOT CHEAP , but nothing that you want to do can be done CHEAP and be of any quality . http://www.htproducts.com/phoenixwaterheater.html . It is a water heater , mod con , buffer tank , call it what you will it is versatile and will do what you want . You will need to supply on HX between the Tank (Phoenix) and rads . If you just have to go with your initial thought use the Bosch Greenstar boiler . Old reliable HX and good technology , I trust German manufacturing a bit more than Korean . Plus the guys at Bosch understand what we do much better than the Navien Tech guys