Joined on May 27, 2011
Last Post on March 7, 2014
@ January 30, 2014 6:49 PM in Closely Spaced Tees - maybe not?Don't think much about it on that side of BFP .
@ January 30, 2014 12:23 AM in Closely Spaced Tees - maybe not?this way I do believe this circ was not even necessary . Any other circs installed on this system are working in conjunction with this one pictured . Hell , if I was water I would never decide to make a right turn when I could continue forward with no effort . This is more of a bypass than P/S if you could even entertain the thought of calling this P/S , the worst thing about this is 2 additional fittings (90's) were used to do it wrong . Have the installer remove the 2 90s and place the Tees where the 90s are now and call it a day . Sorry , maybe that's just because I'm lazy and stupid .
Is there something in the water in New England that continues to make installers purchase , install and commission Burnham Alpine boilers poorly ? There has to be over 600 posts about this boiler from this specific area within the last 45 days . I would venture a guess that US Boiler may want to do some extensive training in this part of the world or just stop shipping there . We should start a movement to require hydraulic seperators or buffer tanks for P/S systems . Would be pretty hard to screw that up . Decoupling , air elimination and dirt separation all in one , Gee that sucks . Hey guys , this one look familiar ?
And the fix for that one is really special
Amherst , Don't let this happen to you . Have him remove the 90s and put the tees where they are .Don't allow yourself to become the subject a a 500 post discussion .
@ January 25, 2014 9:17 AM in Having Trouble with VDT Circ.Lotsa heat being extracted would be my thought . Is the % light solid or flashing ? If it is solid the pump is more likely than not pumping at full speed and the widening Delta is a byproduct of the pump just trying to keep up . I suspect another pump with a similar performance curve would perform similarly at conditions like this . Try setting the dial back to the 2 setting ( 10*) in the board and observe what happens , then set it at the 6 (30*) and again observe . If the fluid stays at a 40* Delta there is nothing wrong with the pump and the Delta T is just because of the heat loss being greater than the conditions which this pump was chosen for . If the test shows that it is just operating at full speed maybe a 0012 or 0013 VDT would be the solution . But then again , maybe it's broke .
Another question is , what is the design heat loss for this house and what temp was it designed for ? I have seen many systems designed for 14* in my area that are just not capable of heating the structure at lower temps . Maybe this is your issue .
@ January 15, 2014 6:58 AM in Why not a zone for every room?is not the same as the expansion tank . The buffer tank would be placed between your boiler and the system . boiler supply in top of tank and return from bottom , other side would be again supply from top and return to bottom . This tank adds mass to the system so when the zones call they don't necessarily fire the boiler but instead utilize that mass . Properly sized Buffer tanks will END short cycling of any boiler . Very good strategy for extensively zoned systems . There are boilers that all but eliminate the need for a buffer that are mod cons , these boilers have many gallons of mass and are very handy replacements for mid efficiency existing boilers . As far as how to pipe I use manifolds that are meant for 1/2" pex and use actuators for each zone as long as the flow needed can be easily reached with 1/2" . 1 Supply and 1 return to each room and 1 - 3 GPM is usually sufficient .
TRVs as mentioned earlier are another option and a good one also .
@ January 6, 2014 8:48 PM in Did someone say Design Day?Below design days everywhere , ships checking out the shrinking polar ice stuck on top of it , record cold temps all over , we're all gonna bake ! New theory , everyone lower your design temps by -10* .
@ January 3, 2014 10:49 PM in We're at design temperature in NYC.Lots of my competitors are lost sleep last night and will lose more in the coming days . They design to 14* . I will be sleeping like a baby . Good night ! Johnny , good luck and hope you don't have too many that were cut close .
@ December 23, 2013 8:09 PM in Design-build hot water washdownhttp://www.htproducts.com/phoenixplusdocuments.html
@ December 22, 2013 2:43 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingJudging by the Delta T hovering right around 20* I would say we hit on the correct pump for this at least . From minute 7 through 31 it stayed right where we want it , those first 6 minutes are something .
@ December 19, 2013 10:38 PM in Why no "indoor reset"?has a good smattering of pretty good guys that I guess could commission . I have been entertaining that idea myself . I design and ship packages a lot and was thinking of reaching out to certain individuals whom may be interested in a paid gig like that . I think I may be insulted . LMAO.
@ December 19, 2013 10:34 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingWe can only guess at the piping system and its true equivalent lengths . As educated of a guess that I could make is that the 008VDT would be sufficient with no IFC installed . This should add right around 13 feet head to the space heating circuits . Again , just a guess from 5.5 hours away .
DHW going out of mixer is 118* I believe you stated , depending on your preferences you may opt for a mixed temp of 105-110* , HTP does limit the warranty in excess of 140* operating temp Anything higher than that usually enables you to enforce the 7 Year commercial warranty . Take this into consideration though the stainless steel tank in their high mass boilers have a 12 year warranty . Hmm , interesting gamble . Your Space heating ODR ratio should probably be no more than point 6 (.6) with the design temp set at 184* . , this would put your warmest day SWT at 140* . I would do this ratio until and if you ever have the piping and baseboard redone . My advice for first floor is a manifold and each rooms heat get a homerun from the manifold . This action will drastically increase your response time and efficiency .
What this 008 pump will change is the flowrate to this unknown heating circuit and insure that the flow will always match the heat loss of that zone , in other words the water returning will be 20 * cooler than the supply water that went out . Tell them to place the sensors properly and set the dial inside the box to the #4 ( this is 20*) .
Do not allow them to leave without calling Burnham Tech support and being walked through the set up process and verifying what they have done .
I expect the next time we talk you should be in much better shape .
Remember that we are not there and are making educated guesses based on years of experience . If 008 does not work you will require 0013 . Do not think this is the case . If you have obtained the oh so important thermo devices Weezbo has rightly touted please check the supply temp going out and the return temp coming back while heating zone is on . Supply is to the left of the 2 Tees near boiler and return is on the right now . Good luck . If you have any questions while they are there I will be available as long as I am not in a basement
@ December 19, 2013 9:52 PM in oversizedis 100% correct . If help is needed sizing the buffer tank , we can help . And yes , there is a proper procedure for that as well . I generally use Caleffi Bufer tanks , they come in 25 , 50 , 80 ,120 gallon sizes . If this is a 1 zone house taking into consideration an 85% boiler and baseboard heat and a minimum 10 minute cycle you would require a 62.5 gallon tank . Since this may be your option I would offer the homeowner Outdoor reset also if the installed baseboard lengths are conducive . .
@ December 19, 2013 7:28 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingwould be why we always uses unions right at the equipment . Did not notice that before , luckily they did not use an old school air scoop . I do not particularly like that but it should work
@ December 19, 2013 6:33 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingalmost there Knotgrumpy . Maybe by the next visit the installer will bring a properly sized space heating pump and spend 30 minutes on the phone with Burnham tech learning how to properly set this one up . Although I believe we would have a better shot if the new thread poster Jeremy would go do this work for us . baseboardheathelp , is Jeremy your brother ? If so don't count on seeing him for awhile he will be reading .LOL
@ December 19, 2013 6:25 PM in Why no "indoor reset"?is your sister I presume . Very nice lady , terrible shame what happened within her home . There are many different methods of control of heating systems , problem is until you can get guys who can design , install or replace as in your sisters' case a simple heating system so that it works we have a huge problem . I would confidently say that everyone that has contributed toward figuring out the mountain of missteps involved with your sister's project would have quite easily performed this job flawlessly and this discussion and that behemoth would never have taken place . I believe that we have now identified all that is wrong and will now be at the mercy of the original installer to fix it and program the boiler properly . Not very hopeful . I have local guys in the area that are awaiting her call and are already aware of the issues if needed .
Here is a link directly to the utmost authority on the answers you seek . Hold on tight now because this is deeper than you thoughthttp://www.healthyheating.com/Programmable-thermostats.htm#! .
The men and the technology are available . Now if you could explain to me how to convince someone to spend 50,000.00 for this type of system when your sister's contractor tells her he will keep her warm for 22,000.00 I'd be more than happy to listen . Because the promise of a 50.00 gas bill as opposed to a 140.00 one , and promising comfort and fresh air does not seem to make sense for everyone looking for return on investment . There are forces here that are all powerful whose pockets would be hurt by this type of stuff that administer what technologies get approved for use under all matter of Rebate , loan , performance programs . They are a monster Octupi with massive tentacles everywhere . What you are searching for is not difficult yet in the same breath is very difficult . Imagine a system that operated at thermal equilibrium , I have , can't get anyone to shell out the dough . So , I have focused my efforts on designing and installing the very best affordable systems that are practical for the everyday consumer , sometimes that is even a hard sell .
All in all I think we have done quite a job diagnosing what went wrong at A.M's house from the distances we all are from Massachusetts .
@ December 19, 2013 1:25 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingis not a good candidate for this application . If and when both zones are calling it will only do head of 10.5 feet . . At these conditions neither zone will receive what it needs and compound the problem . 008 VDT or 0013VDT are the only choices to address this problem
@ December 19, 2013 11:29 AM in Boiler Delta T/Cycle Counts/Run Time Efficiency?the Grundfos alone . The Bumble Bee moving your heating water to the emitters is what you want . It will keep the designed for Delta T near target . BJ Terroni in Bensalem is distributor in your area , you should be able to locate and obtain easily .
@ December 19, 2013 9:35 AM in Boiler Delta T/Cycle Counts/Run Time Efficiency?This is what I would recommend for your heating zone . Delta T operation in your case . I would also look at the indirect zone to pinpoint how that is performing . Can't clearly tell difference between S & R , the black kinda runs together in spots , probably just my old eyes though . This pump will tell you how many GPM are being pumped and the wattage being used in real time . Makes it pretty easy to know exactly what's going on . A buffer tank would greatly improve everything in this system also . Do you know the btus for your heating zone ?
@ December 19, 2013 9:13 AM in Hot water baseboard heatingI think a more fair statement would be that un qualified persons are the cause of more problems that appear on The Wall . Let's face it we have all made very good use of the 007 without incident . To the unrefined the 007 can take care of everything , why use anything other than what many manufacturers include with boiler packages . I'd be willing to bet that some of these young men don't know there is any pump manufacturers other than Taco & Grundfos .
Tech guys at these factories must get so frustrated with these calls from people asking questions about what is clearly in the manual then being abused as if their equipment is a piece of trash . All boilers should be designed around what the uninformed have knowledge of is their mindset .
Little boxes with warnings and cautions all over the manual mean nothing , hell they are even in bold print as if to jump up and down and wave their hands saying " HEY PLEASE READ ME , WHY ARE"NT YOU PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO ME , DON"T I MATTER IN YOUR LIFE , IAM PRETTY IMPORTANT " This thing appears to me when I see it like my wife when she is annoyed , Warning , ignore to your own peril ! Unfortunately as we married folk all know there are always innocent bystanders affected by the following events !
This bold print statement is in one of those little BLACK BOXES
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
and boiler piping configurations that provide the
proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
and indirect water heater.
The following is from Page 54 :
It is often very difficult to accurately calculate
the pressure drop through the system.
d. In replacement installations, it may be nearly
impossible to get an accurate measurement of
piping amount and number of fittings in the
system. If system is zoned, the system flow rate
may drop well below recommended minimum
flow when only a single zone is calling for heat
And Don't forget the various charts and language associated with them .
Fact is that the 007 is not going anywhere and why should it ? Maybe there should be a warning included with all circulators stating that
" verification of the effectiveness of using this circulator in any system is the responsibility of the installer " The manufacturer accepts no liability for damage to other system components , losses by the end user , any obligations that arise due to improper installation of this product . Installer shall be responsible for all damages due to improper use "
No that won't do any good either because until there is a way to verify ones qualifications this will continue and unfortunately accelerate in it's frequency .
@ December 18, 2013 11:10 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingYou would be understanding that correctly .
@ December 18, 2013 11:08 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingI believe you may have part of it there . The major factor here is that a 007 cannot , never could , will never move enough fluid to heat this home at any temp . On the first floor zone it would appear that there is actually 63+ feet of installed radiation and a total equivalent circuit length of 200 - 210 ft . This circuit really needs to flow 3 . 17 GPM to achieve a 20 Degree Delta T across it . This little 007 is certainly killing itself trying to achieve and only realistically able to put 1 GPM through this circuit
See my T average post . ,