Joined on May 27, 2011
Last Post on December 12, 2013
@ November 17, 2013 9:55 AM in monofloAfter reading Paul's comments several times I came to the conclusion that the budget was certainly capped and he was going to attempt a band aid repair . In an attempt to offer a solution that would keep him within an unrealistic budget I made my suggestion . I know full well the consequences and I believe that Paul does also and would inform the parties of how this fix would influence the rest of the system .
I would figure out what the actual heat loss is , attempt to come up with a proper design and configuration and offer to do that . Upon their decision to not spend the required monies I would walk away as the other companies have done . Gentlemen , I give one price for jobs dealing with a certain scope of work , that price is a guaranteed maximum price for the best system for a particular building based on information given me by the end user , that price may be too much (often is times they had unreasonable expectations ) then we can explore lesser systems but still better than 90% of the garbage others are installing , afterwards if the price is still Too high I bid them farewell . Many times I hear from these same folks after a heating season or 2 and much frustration later . At that point in time after they were told how the system they were allowing to be installed would operate there are no more questions or doubt about your knowledge . This is a help site for all , even other professionals , I offered help along the lines that I believe Paul will go anyway . If Paul wants an ethics or business class he should look elsewhere and not to us .
Paul , if this builder or others regularly do this to you or expect you to fix others or their screw ups , get rid of em . They will return , they always do , been there done that . If this is in fact 30% of your work base you need to replace that work with other work . Hell I turn down work in Northern NJ all the time because of lack of resources (qualified labor) . I'd bet I could get that work and you could do it . That would probably replace the frustrating portion of what you do .
@ November 16, 2013 10:08 AM in The right system circulator with a Viessmann WB2B 35The bumble bee should work just fine with your system requirements . Just watch your calculations and head 109,000 @ 25 Delta is 8.72 GPM if 100% water . If you increased the Delta to 35 that would put you right in the middle of the curve 2 & 3 for the Bumble Bee and would take you farther into the efficiency be it ever so slight .
Would using 2 Bumble Bees be out of the question ? Then both 1 1/4 circuits would remain as is , balancing would be at a minimum , considering whether it was balanced well to begin with and you would operate at 22 watts as opposed to 32 on design day . 1 at 32 or 2 at 44 and ultimate control .
@ November 16, 2013 9:35 AM in monofloPlease feel free to correct me if I am wrong .
Will a radiant zone not turn off when the thermostat has been satisfied ? Does not surface temp of the floor determine when thermostat is satisfied ? Yes floor surface temp will vary depending on conditions . But under all those conditions the T Stat will satisfy . The finish floor and tile will only absorb and experience the heat required to satisfy zone , it does not matter what temp is running through the tubing because we are only dealing with one zone that is independent of rest of system . I zone aggressively and only zone rooms on the same zone that have similar finish floor R values , have similar use patterns , and have similar BTU per ft requirements . After years of doing this I have yet to see a floor , no matter what material it was overheat or be damaged . I regularly put hotter water than a particular loop or circuit needs by zoning this way and have had no complaints , in fact have been asked how come it is more responsive than in my house ? Does anyone see a problem with treating this as an independent zone with a circ (Delta T) , a thermostat and a relay as OP originally was thinking ?
Remember , when floor surface reaches X thermostat will satisfy , flow will stop and the floor will get no hotter . Forget the mixing , zoning is less expensive and requires less thought . Control will be just fine with the Delta T circ and a Taco hydraulic separator . Of course you will need to figure the approximate true length of this circuit and determine the head loss to size this pump but I believe this will be done within what your contractor/ heating specialist is willing to pay for you to correct his mistake . Let this zone operate independent of everything else in the system . The short amount of time that this zone calls should not overheat the other rooms to an uncomfortable level . Good luck
@ November 15, 2013 3:06 PM in monoflowould you require at design ? and what is your GPM requirement ? You may be able to control this very well .
@ November 14, 2013 1:32 PM in Multi-unit house Electric Radiant Floor or Forced Air/Gas?1 Kw = 3,414 BTU
1 Therm = 100,000 BTU
These are both billing units used by utilities . If 29.3 Kw of electrical energy costs less than 1 therm I think you have your answer . Where I am in NJ the Kw costs .14 and the therm costs .52 . So here , in this market my choice would be between 4.10 and .52 . or 8xS more expensive for electric .
@ November 12, 2013 12:08 AM in Radiant floor heat not heating properlyif you are willing to allow him to just replace the existing pump . That should get you through . I would most definitely advise you to find out more , maybe hire someone to do a proper room by room heat loss . I would say get rid of the zone valves , employ some thermal actuators for rooms 2 & 3 and the others on the 5 loop and add required thermostats . Find out the actual head losses for each loop and fix this thing up top as best you can . Too big boiler for your house my friend for sure , gonna keep on short cycling and wear that thing out quick , a real shame . I noticed Uponor manifolds , zone control modules . Is the pex Uponor also , is this man recognized by Uponor as an HCT ? Where are you in Minnesota , anywhere near Prior Lake ? Maybe you could contact someone around there ? I know at least 4 guys from the Minneapolis / St Paul area that could quite probably help you make this system the best it will get at this point . Remember though , accept nothing but the Taco 0013 VDT at this point and dial it in to a 10 - 15 degree Delta T , the extra 5 degrees will help slightly with your cycling issue . And for Christ's sake move that thermostat out of the lowest heat loss , warmest area and put it on the angled wall at foyer , great room junction or in the coldest bedroom . If your family likes a little chill while sleeping put it out in the foyer or the angled wall , at least that way the zone will stay on a little longer and let some BTUs into those bedrooms .
@ November 11, 2013 10:03 PM in Radiant floor heat not heating properlyWhat manifold are they on ? You only have 9 loops in a 2200 square foot house , is this correct ? That home would require app. 3300' of tubing at 8" on center and 2750' at 12" on center . At 12 your average loop length is 305' and at 8 the average loop length is 366' . You my friend are in trouble . You will need an in depth analysis of what loops are on what manifolds , what rooms are zoned together , and how much pump you will need to push fluid through those long lengths to salvage some of your sanity . I would venture a guess that your boiler is oversized also . 50 BTUh per sq. ft is a bit heavy handed even in the coldest of climates . Where are you located ? You will certainly need someone to hydraulically separate your system from the boiler . Sorry to say you have a lot on your plate . Is this installer avoiding you now or can you persuade him to remedy the situation or at least hold him responsible so you can be reimbursed for whatever the cost is to have another make it at least work acceptably and keep you warm ? Did this slab get insulated below the tubing ? Where the hell did you find this guy ?
@ November 9, 2013 6:52 AM in R-valuehas a low R value . Natural stone products such as Granite and lime or sand stone have the following R values . Granite has an R value of point 05 per inch and sand/lime stone have R of point 08 per inch making your wall if any of these materials 1.2 overall R and 1.92 . Is the wall you ask about natural material or something else .
remember that the more dense the material the lower the R value will be , concrete at 60 pounds per foot will have an R of point 52 per inch and the same concrete at 150 pounds per foot will have an R value of point 07 per inch , that is a huge difference .
@ November 6, 2013 7:15 AM in Slow leak at joint (picture)Advice was asked for and advice was given (sound advice at that) . What would possess you to make an adversarial comment about another's opinion ? Best off just giving your advice and calling it a day . Unless of course the advice given endangered the OP or his property . Just my .02 . By the way OP , call a licensed plumber !
@ October 21, 2013 5:59 PM in HTP Elite FT boiler not modulating low enough...problem?ended up being Primary / secondary ? Sounds like the Delta T in the the primary loop is low . The energy is being taken out somewhere . I agree with the others in te fact that a nice long efficient cycle is a good thing , the only thing better is when the boiler is not firing at all .
@ October 21, 2013 5:29 PM in Buderus GB142 Circ pump questionreally tell from pictures . Which line is the expansion tank connected to on this boiler . That low loss header really would work better with the pump on the supply side of that LLH . Just my opinion .
@ October 19, 2013 12:14 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?is a Schmuck .
Here is my take on a solution that is not too difficult and fits with your lifestyle and chosen setup .
Central to this system is a Heat-Flo HF-60-D tank (2 coils) . Cast iron boiler feeds the bottom coil , water in tank is heated to 180* , this tank is your storage tank and as DHW is used it is mixed down to 115* via a Taco 5000 DHW mixing valve , when heat is required pump ( Dt) with Taco I Series ODR mixing valve on suction side gives you outdoor reset and you only use the required BTU for that moment in time . the heat exchanger for this operation is the top coil . Control is a high / low limit aquastat that shuts off at 180* tank temp and fires boiler when tank temp is 150* . Both pumps could probably be Bumble Bees that would consume a whopping 44 watts combined when really working hard .
Just a suggestion
@ October 18, 2013 9:11 PM in why use primary/secondary if not needed?of the definition of Extrapolation . Many of my home performance friends like to extrapolate all kinds of things while MODELING homes that live in the software on their computer I unfortunately have the task of keeping REAL people in Real houses during Real winters (possibly harsher than what you extrapolated for ) comfortable in their houses . I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from these well intentioned nerds that it worked in the model . Funny thing about the systems we are talking about is the fact that in a harsh winter their efficiencies vary from not so cold times . No extrapolation is best left to scientists and guys in offices . When most of us design and install systems we want the customers to be warm on every day no matter what the outdoor conditions and second we , well I don't wanna be bothered with people that need toi where a sweater like a European telling me I did not do good enough .
Delta T varies on the amount of heat actually being emitted through the system . Supply water temp has nothing to do with Delta T . If the SWT is 90 and the Delta T is 20* and you are pumping 2.9 GPM the space used 29,000 BTU and if the temp stayed the same and you pumped 5.6 GPM the space received 56,000 BTU . I would hardly call that hardly pumping and in fact would call it efficient pumping and only using what you need and xconserving energy . So in April and October I guess using only 9/22/32/42 watts to give you what you need damn near to the enth degree really sucks huh ?
@ October 18, 2013 8:55 PM in underfloor heating in a multi-family buildingtubing was used for the in floor panels ? Any chance of you allowing us to view the near boiler piping and pumping arrangement ? And as above where are you located ?
@ October 17, 2013 7:36 PM in Heat loss for logs?is good . Pine is 1.3 R per inch . But it can cut both ways being a thermal bridge .
@ October 17, 2013 4:47 PM in head loss for mono-floconcerned with the Big loop , water has no choice but to flow through the emitters . Are there 2 MF tees per emitter (cringe) ? If so you are gonna need a hell of a pump . The tee is measured through the run of the fitting . They are not low loss systems as previously mentioned .
@ October 17, 2013 4:36 PM in why use primary/secondary if not needed?you did not extrapolate and log that information during mild winters or you may end up with XX BTUs in a YY BTU winter . A little more research and thought quite possibly would have led you or your contractor to the HTP Pioneer that certainly does not require P/S piping . You may also want to use a Taco Bumble Bee on the emitter side of what you are now purchasing , with that big pipe and low hydraulic pressure Rads you should be able to get what you need . Tell your contractor to do the math to determine if all will work . If you are not comfortable with the contractor and his ability to provide you the knowledge , talent and integrity to install this new equipment , get another one .
@ October 16, 2013 10:51 PM in head loss for mono-floThe hydraulic resistance of a 3/4" B & G Monoflo tee is equivalent to 70 Ft of pipe , a 1" is 23.5ft and an 1 1/4 is 25 ft. . Stay outta trouble .
@ October 16, 2013 10:44 PM in gpmSnow melt using a Bumble Bee Circ . 42 watts to melt snow ? If you can keep the head pressure in the S&R section below 4 ft you can use the Bumble Bee for this system and keep the Delta T wherever you want it .
@ October 16, 2013 10:32 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?you have Ht Products as something that is available to you . Look at their combined heat and hot water tab and see if the Versa Flame might not fit your needs . It is a high mass (55gal) mod con boiler that does not require primary / secondary (1 pump) , I would switch out the 87 watt pump you have there and install a Taco Bumble Bee (HEC-2) . This unit also has a flat plate heat exchanger that employs a pump on the boiler side to heat DHW . Not as expensive as many of the options being discussed and you're only gonna be adding about 22 watts to your consumption . Due to the high mass you can program it so that it fires minimally conserving your fuel also . tell me what ya think
@ October 13, 2013 7:46 PM in Different take on tankless vs bufferedzones of heat and what is the smallest zone on design day ? Really must have this to further discussion . You can get more DHW using a storage type tank than with a tankless . 3 way diverting valves in tankless combi are problematic . I have changed no less than 7 of them in 18 months (Navien) . That what you want ?
@ October 13, 2013 5:04 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heatingAfter much research on your part I would guess you decided to go with radiant heating for comfort and efficiency . Correct me if I am mistaken . You did some research on the internet and found Ultra Fin and the marketing and the promise of a more economical install and first cost caught your attention . Welcome to the wortd of marketing or as I like to call it , SPIN.. Our industry is full of it , everyone on The Wall can verify this . Think about this , water can and does carry 3,470 x more heat than an equivalent unit of air . You will be depending on heating a huge mass of air that does not hold heat well before you will feel a damn thing . To put it in size terms , your home is 6000 sq feet , all radiant , 4 inch air space acting as your heating medium , all that air must be heated before any meaningful heat transfer can take place . You are in essence heating an 82.5 sq ft room that does not exist all the time and this room must satisfy before any of the real rooms get any heat that you will perceive . Sound efficient to you ? That air space will also cool very rapidly after the thermostat satisfies and it will start all over again . It will require water temps that are not conducive to condensing equipment so you will lose that efficiency factor also . It is just all around not a good idea in my opinion and I am not alone