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The Wall


Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on April 15, 2014

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The Wall

@ December 19, 2013 10:38 PM in Why no "indoor reset"?

has a good smattering of pretty good guys that I guess could commission . I have been entertaining that idea myself . I design and ship packages a lot and was thinking of reaching out to certain individuals whom may be interested in a paid gig like that .  I think I may be insulted . LMAO.


@ December 19, 2013 10:34 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

We can only guess at the piping system and its true equivalent lengths . As educated of a guess that I could make is that the 008VDT would be sufficient with no IFC installed . This should add right around 13 feet head to the space heating circuits .  Again , just a guess from 5.5 hours away . 
  DHW going out of mixer is 118* I believe you stated , depending on your preferences you may opt for a mixed temp of 105-110* , HTP does limit the warranty in excess of 140* operating temp  Anything higher than that usually enables you to enforce the 7 Year commercial warranty . Take this into consideration though the stainless steel tank in their high mass boilers have a 12 year warranty . Hmm  , interesting gamble .  Your Space heating ODR ratio should probably be no more than point 6 (.6) with the design temp set at 184* . , this would put your warmest day SWT at 140* . I would do this ratio until and if you ever have the piping and baseboard redone . My advice for first floor is a manifold and each rooms heat get a homerun from the manifold . This action will drastically increase your response time and efficiency .
    What this 008 pump will change is the flowrate to this unknown heating circuit and insure that the flow will always match the heat loss of that zone , in other words the water returning will be 20 * cooler than the supply water that went out . Tell them to place the sensors properly and set the dial inside the box to the #4 ( this is 20*) .  
Do not allow them to leave without calling Burnham Tech support and being walked through the set up process and verifying what they have done .
 I expect the next time we talk you should be in much better shape . 
Remember that we are not there and are making educated guesses based on years of experience . If 008 does not work you will require 0013 . Do not think this is the case . If you have obtained the oh so important thermo devices Weezbo  has rightly touted please check the supply temp going out and the return temp coming back while heating zone is on . Supply is to the left of the 2 Tees near boiler and return is on the right now .  Good luck . If you have any questions while they are there I will be available as long as I am not in a basement  


@ December 19, 2013 9:52 PM in oversized

is 100% correct . If help is needed sizing the buffer tank , we can help . And yes , there is a proper procedure for that as well . I generally use Caleffi Bufer tanks , they come in 25 , 50 , 80 ,120 gallon sizes . If this is a 1 zone house taking into consideration an 85% boiler and baseboard heat and a minimum 10 minute cycle you would require a 62.5 gallon tank . Since this may be your option I would offer the homeowner Outdoor reset also if the installed baseboard lengths are conducive . .

That there

@ December 19, 2013 7:28 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

would be why we always uses unions right at the equipment . Did not notice that before , luckily they did not use an old school air scoop . I do not particularly like that but it should work

We are

@ December 19, 2013 6:33 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

almost there Knotgrumpy . Maybe by the next visit the installer will bring a properly sized space heating pump and spend 30 minutes on the phone with Burnham tech learning how to properly set this one up . Although I believe we would have a better shot if the new thread poster Jeremy would go do this work for us .  baseboardheathelp , is Jeremy your brother ?  If so don't count on seeing him for awhile he will be reading .LOL

So A.M

@ December 19, 2013 6:25 PM in Why no "indoor reset"?

is your sister I presume . Very nice lady , terrible shame what happened within her home .  There are many different methods of control of heating systems , problem is until you can get guys who can design , install or replace as in your sisters' case a simple heating system so that it works we have a huge problem .  I would confidently say that everyone that has contributed toward figuring out the mountain of missteps involved with your sister's project would have quite easily performed this job flawlessly and this discussion and that behemoth would never have taken place .  I believe that we have now identified all that is wrong and will now be at the mercy of the original installer to fix it and program the boiler properly . Not very hopeful .  I have local guys in the area that are awaiting her call and are already aware of the issues if needed .
   Here is a link directly to the utmost authority on the answers you seek . Hold on tight now because this is deeper than you thought! .

 The men and the technology are available . Now if you could explain to me how to convince someone to spend 50,000.00 for this type of system when your sister's contractor tells her he will keep her warm for 22,000.00 I'd be more than happy to listen . Because the promise of a 50.00 gas bill as opposed to a 140.00 one , and promising comfort and fresh air does not seem to make sense for everyone looking for return on investment . There are forces here that are all powerful whose pockets would be hurt by this type of stuff that administer what technologies get approved for use under all matter of Rebate , loan , performance programs .  They are a monster Octupi with massive tentacles everywhere . What you are searching for is not difficult yet in the same breath is very difficult .  Imagine a system that operated at thermal equilibrium , I have , can't get anyone to shell out the dough . So , I have focused my efforts on designing and installing the very best affordable systems that are practical for the everyday consumer , sometimes that is even a hard sell . 
  All in all I think we have done quite a job diagnosing what went wrong at A.M's house from the distances we all are from Massachusetts .  


@ December 19, 2013 1:29 PM in Dan

the motion .

Bumble Bee

@ December 19, 2013 1:25 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

is not a good candidate for this application .  If and when both zones are calling it will only do head of 10.5 feet . . At these conditions neither zone will receive what it needs and compound the problem .  008 VDT or 0013VDT are the only choices to address this problem


@ December 19, 2013 11:29 AM in Boiler Delta T/Cycle Counts/Run Time Efficiency?

the Grundfos alone . The Bumble Bee moving your heating water to the emitters is what you want . It will keep the designed for Delta T near target .  BJ Terroni in Bensalem is distributor in your area , you should be able to locate and obtain easily .

Look into this

@ December 19, 2013 9:39 AM in low humidity

Air Pohoda Ultima

Bumble Bee

@ December 19, 2013 9:35 AM in Boiler Delta T/Cycle Counts/Run Time Efficiency?

This is what I would recommend for your heating zone . Delta T operation in your case .  I would also look at the indirect zone to pinpoint how that is performing .  Can't clearly tell difference between S & R , the black kinda runs together in spots , probably just my old eyes though .  This pump will tell you how many GPM are being pumped and the wattage being used in real time . Makes it pretty easy to know exactly what's going on .  A buffer tank would greatly improve everything in this system also . Do you know the btus for your heating zone ? 

Its a shame

@ December 19, 2013 9:13 AM in Hot water baseboard heating

I think a more fair statement would be that un qualified persons are the cause of more problems that appear on The Wall .  Let's face it we have all made very good use of the 007 without incident . To the unrefined the 007 can take care of everything , why use anything other than what many manufacturers include with boiler packages .  I'd be willing to bet that some of these young men don't know there is any pump manufacturers other than Taco & Grundfos . 
   Tech guys at these factories must get so frustrated with these calls from people asking questions about what is clearly in the manual then being abused as if their equipment is a piece of trash . All boilers should be designed around what the uninformed have knowledge of is their mindset .
Little boxes with warnings and cautions all over the manual mean nothing , hell they are even in bold print as if to jump up and down and wave their hands saying " HEY PLEASE READ ME , WHY ARE"NT YOU PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO ME , DON"T I MATTER IN YOUR LIFE , IAM PRETTY IMPORTANT "  This thing appears to me when I see it like my wife when she is annoyed  , Warning , ignore to your own peril !  Unfortunately as we married folk all know there are always innocent bystanders affected by the following events !  
 This bold print statement is in one of those little BLACK BOXES
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
It is the installers responsibility to select pumps
and boiler piping configurations that provide the
proper flow rates and performance for the boiler
and indirect water heater.  
 The following is from Page 54 :

It is often very difficult to accurately calculate
the pressure drop through the system.
d. In replacement installations, it may be nearly
impossible to get an accurate measurement of
piping amount and number of fittings in the
system. If system is zoned, the system flow rate
may drop well below recommended minimum
flow when only a single zone is calling for heat
And Don't forget the various charts and language associated with them .
    Fact is that the 007 is not going anywhere and why should it ?  Maybe there should be a warning included with all circulators stating that
" verification of the effectiveness of using this circulator in any system is the responsibility of the installer " The manufacturer accepts no liability for damage to other system components , losses by the end user , any obligations that arise due to improper installation of this product . Installer shall be responsible for all damages due to improper use " 
    No that won't do any good either because until there is a way to verify ones qualifications this will continue and unfortunately accelerate in it's frequency .    


@ December 18, 2013 11:10 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

You would be understanding that correctly .


@ December 18, 2013 11:08 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

I believe you may have part of it there . The major factor here is that a 007 cannot , never could , will never move enough fluid to heat this home at any temp . On the first floor zone it would appear that there is actually 63+ feet of installed radiation and a total equivalent circuit length of 200 - 210 ft  . This circuit really needs to flow 3 . 17 GPM to achieve a 20 Degree Delta T across it . This little 007 is certainly killing itself trying to achieve and only realistically able to put 1 GPM through this circuit
  See my  T average post . , 


@ December 18, 2013 5:37 PM in System control suggestions?

tubing and manifolds will you be using ?  Aggressive zoning is not a bad thing , matter of fact its pretty good to do . This allows you to run a single temp to many zones even if they have a lower temp requirement , these rooms will be more responsive also .  When the finish floor surface reaches a certain temp the T stat will shut the zone and the flow down so it will not overshoot .  Uponor EP manifolds are very good , they come with flow meters on them .  Taco  Delta T pumps or ECM Bumble Bees are a real good and accurate way to insure designed for Delta T . Although others have said they won't work with ODR there is no logical explanation for this thought . Please see the following link . No matter how much energy is being left in the panel the flow and pressure will change on a real time basis through the use of sensors adhered to the S & R devices .  Please also read the following , they make a lot of sense and eliminate some of the mystery ; , . These would be just 2 of many on lots of subjects .


@ December 18, 2013 5:24 PM in Recirculation for new Indirect install?

cut in a tee on the fixtures that matter and run them back to a recirc manifold near the IWH .

How much

@ December 18, 2013 5:20 PM in Not enough hot water..

demand is there in this house and as others have asked what kind of flow from showerheads , tubs ?


@ December 18, 2013 5:08 PM in Boiler Delta T/Cycle Counts/Run Time Efficiency?

pump is currently doing the heavy lifting of your system water ?  How is the short cycling doing during the cold ?  Pretty well I suspect but it will start short cycling again on warmer days . There are solutions to both problems .


@ December 18, 2013 5:01 PM in Boiler blues in NYC

are also the first guys to return a call from someone who they think will be the next mark . Funny thing is that you don't always get the best cell service when you're in a basement and spending time to do it right . According to this gentleman these guys are more reputable than a dog A&%ed tired true mechanic . 


@ December 18, 2013 4:53 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

Are you using Hydronics Design Studio ?  You should be able to save a file for this job if so . Save to documents , after writing your post hit the file attachment Browse button , go to documents highlight the project , open it and it should attach . Is that what you needed ?


@ December 18, 2013 2:24 PM in Boiler blues in NYC

There is more than one guy listed on this site my friend . You should have called several . If I recollect we have been experiencing some pretty cold temps and  like me I would presume that most guys are very busy . This man probably did the best he could at getting to you but may have had previous emergencies to tend to , that often happens with guys that are worthwhile waiting for . He quite possibly has built a business with regular customers whom refer him to many . He must take care of his base clients or risk losing them . I would much rather have people saying that the work I did was right and good , it is easy to explain that you were just impatient and could not wait .  Think about just how you ended up being beat over the head in the first place , I bet you'll come up with the answer on how that happened .

T average ?

@ December 18, 2013 2:11 PM in Hot water baseboard heating

So this home is approximately 945 square feet on the first floor .   That would for arguments sake make the perimeter walls roughly equal to 128 lineal feet , can we assume that this is pretty near the Total equivalent length of the first floor zone circuit ?   Let's for a minute imagine that this installer knew exactly what he was doing and calculated the output of the baseboard per foot at a given flow and average water temp, maybe 1 GPM @ 170*, the numbers work and every room on this first floor zone seems to have enough baseboard .  The problem is that the average water temp is not 170* in every piece of baseboard . As you travel through the circuit every piece has a lower T* ave. therefore putting out less BTU at the same flow as the piece before . You see where I am headed ?    Here is an equation from MHH3  Delta T = BTUh divided by 500x flow . This house as described by the numbers   31742 divided by 500x3(1500) = 21.16* Delta T .  The problem is I believe we are here or worse  31742 divided by 500x1(500) = 63.48* Delta T . Guys a 007 can't do this , PERIOD .   It can move 1 GPM @ just under 10 feet hd and 3 GPM @ just a little less head than that .What pump can we offer as a suggestion that is capable of delivering 3 GPM and guaranteeing a proper Delta T ?  008 VDT, 0013 VDT .  At least then we can count on an average temp of 170* right smack in the middle of the circuit .  Remember the old oil boiler was oversized , probably had a monster pump and was more likely than not making hotter water than what we can now . 
 I would be willing to bet that the equivalent length of this circuit is 200 + feet and their is I believe a kickspace heater within it .  There is certainly a low flow condition here . Luckily it is one that can be overcome with the right pump . Note to self , please write Taco and ask if they could stop production of 007 that everyone thinks is the right pump . Was that my outside voice ?  
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