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Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on September 13, 2014

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@ July 13, 2014 2:28 PM in Getting into mod/con business

have no clue about all the thought we dedicate to every single job Gordy . I think they miss the point that those hours which they never see are money well spent .

Monitor MZ

@ July 13, 2014 12:25 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Funny you should mention the MZ Bob .  We are doing a job now for a woman whose husband is employed by the gas utility . He , in his infinite wisdom retrofitted his former home with radiant , some embedded some sandwich . Non barrier tubing , electric stripped out water heater for a buffer laying horizontal , 20+ circs (B&G NRF22s) , no water treatment for heating system with well water system .  Female homeowner has house after divorce , pays monthly maintenance / repair contract , heat goes out in January , tech cannot figure out what is wrong , bypasses safeties & flue safety after being instructed to do so by office , states this is against his better judgement on written paperwork . House almost burns down , everything in house freezes , house destroyed essentially . Insurance company is ecstatic , they have the best case one could hope for , written negligence by an employee .  We spent 5 complete days flushing lines to my satisfaction ( Caleffi flush/fill) . Found so many problems with house other than what is obvious .  After dissecting Monitor I found the trap completely filled with lime scale .  Just an example of the so many things that can go wrong .
  Anyone who thinks your gas supplier is an authority on anything , think again . 

Customer Attitude

@ July 13, 2014 8:45 AM in Getting into mod/con business

I always find myself walking away from jobs because I won't install what some idiot told them would work . Hell , I can sit on my couch with my hand in my pants watching television and not lose money and worry about being sued . That approach has zero overhead .  I have counseled too many attorneys at this point on what was done wrong and 100% provable to even entertain the thought of doing it wrong . I educate my potential customers and let them make their decision . I also offer to design the systems for them so bidding contractors can bid apples to apples while at the same time including my bid in the form of a budget for the system , many times they figure out they cannot really afford radiant or whatever it is they are seeking . Then you have the guy that watches DIY TV , you go to his house , measure , design , provide price and he tells you he saw on DIY where it can be done for 10.00 per sq ft . You point out to him that he is missing one very important point , you're not doing it yourself ,I am doing it for you . Fact is that almost all consumers will pay 500.00 for a 5.00 job but piss and moan about spending 5.00 on a 500.00 job . Imagine that  They will buy the newest I phone every 7 months but will skimp and be cheap on the equipment in their largest investment , their home .  
  Everything we use today damn near requires maintenance . Fact is with proper equipment selection , design and installation a whole lot of maintenance is not required .
  So I see now what you do . Let me ask you this . If some other engineer that was not in your exact field came and told you he had a better way than you and you had already seen people attempt that unsuccessfully or in a manner that the longevity sucked what would your response be ?  I am guessing you would be frustrated with that discussion . Well , at least you're experimenting in your own plane and not someone else's .  


@ July 13, 2014 8:26 AM in Getting into mod/con business

You'll know if it is an issue by the color / tint of the water leaving your faucets .  A simple test from a sample at the incoming water and one from the drain at the bottom of the heater will tell you if it is elevated .  I had a customer whose home had city water that was fine at incoming in every way but with readings if I remember correctly around 450 ppm after the tank . Manufacturer tried to state that water was too soft , it was in fact point 007 low . A nice letter from the attorney finally convinced them to warranty and replace the tank .    


@ July 12, 2014 11:42 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Bc .  There are so many things to consider when debating this subject .
1 Is the boiler to be placed in a new home or retrofit ? Many of the homes I enter to replace a boiler have way too much baseboard , this allows me to determine by way of heat loss calc what the max temp required is and with ODR we can make  mod cons sing and have regularly experienced greater than 35% savings for space heating only , the number grows when we can install DHW also .
 Many of these same houses this is not possible and I can only speak for myself when I say I replace those like for like (but smaller most times)
  Then you will get the house that has undergone extensive envelope improvements and has an point 3 ACH NAT performance . You can't really introduce cold air into the space for combustion and increase the heat loss of the structure. You don't want to size the DOAS system for that , if there is one , many times that was not done in favor of exhaust only which would compound the combustion air problem .Now these poor homeowners have a real problem they are gonna die without the mod con .  I don't believe you appreciate the balancing act many of us are doing out here to DO THE RIGHT THING , save people money every month , make them comfortable and be able to sleep at night .
  The world we are working in is challenging . Competition is offering garbage and putting people at risk and in jeopardy . They install stuff that does not work , they don't do heat loss calcs , they don't know what head , Delta T , OAT , ECM , reverse return , P&S . It's terrible and the attorneys are just sitting in their office heated by mod cons waiting for the phone to ring . Hell , we even have utility companies administering incentive and rebate programs that make you use a mod con in a house where it does not belong and then slap a direct vent , PVC exhausted water heater right next to it because you cannot have an orphaned chimney without enough BTUs to heat it up . These jobs are where most of your horror stories come from . I see boilers all the time where the homeowners would like them ripped out and the only problem is the installer . I have mod cons out here that have run trouble free since 1995 and I have mod cond that the folks do not want service for whatever reason that become a problem .
  I also have replaced more cast iron boilers installed by some knucklehead that thought just run them at 130 for radiant and return em at 110 , they'll be fine .
 New houses are a completely different story . The guys that you have been exchanging with likely as I would rather be part of a design team during conception and build a house to suit what the occupant wants as opposed to designing a heating system to an architects attempt at an award for a giant turd he can publish and toot his own horn about to the world . This is the way it is starting to be done now .  Please take a look at the attachments , this is a house we are about to break ground on , I have given the details at 5* w/ 20 mph wind and 28* w/ 20 mph wind . Piping is designed to have minimal head loss , all panels will operate at 10* DT and the boilers will condense 100% of the time .  This house will consume no more than 2255 therms annually . NJNG budget amount for this house will run right about 210.00 per month . This is what most of us here do , maybe this will explain where we speak from .  A lot of time was spent this winter helping folks tell their contractors what they did wrong so they could fix it , Maybe you could help us in the future .
 By the way , I have seen what you are ready to embark on . Be very gingerly putting that in place . I have seen 3 units set up like yours where the glass separated or chipped and the manganese levels were terribly dangerous .


@ July 11, 2014 6:56 PM in Mod/con poll. Installers only.

Well if I have to recommend one it would be #3 .  Lots of radiators in NYC and area .  Don't forget dirt seperators when you do use a modcon , all the trash will plug up an HX quick in stock that old . After you determine heal loss and what the radiation is capable of you can make your recommendation . Don't be scared of 180* SWTs though if using ODR because running a 40* Delta with radiators will have you condensing for a real good portion of the season.

Confusion ?

@ July 11, 2014 7:17 AM in Bonding CSST:

Ice , we have known this forever , it's been in the code longer than that .  "All above ground portions of gas piping SHALL be bonded continuous " , Always been there never should have been questioned , challenged by anyone , this was in fact written before the appearance of CSST systems . I am not defending CSST , I like using Iron Pipe . I am pointing a finger at anyone who thought or thinks they are more intelligent than the dead men when it comes to things as dangerous as the storage and distribution of explosive material INSIDE the built environment .  There have now been many cases where CSST was found to be faulty / defective but to date they have not had to pay significant fines , cease manufacture or stop selling the product . There is one reason for this , they are not liable and if properly installed CSST is a viable product .  Most lightning strikes occur right at the meter , just attach the clamp there and bond it so any energizing that could travel through the system goes to ground before that damage can be done . Do this even on Iron pipe systems guys .   To eliminate any confusion , Bonding carries energy away from the system , Using the system as a pathway to Ground would be bad . There is no confusion . Anyone who is confused about this should probably stick to stuff they are qualified for


@ July 10, 2014 7:21 PM in Getting into mod/con business

mentioned the Pioneer as a comparison to a conventional cast iron boiler in this thread and as a comparison of same the 55 gallons of mass allow the Pioneer to be held out for a longer period between cycles .  My comparison as far as the system you will install in your house was the Versa Flame which is an identical plug and play package developed by professional engineers to do exactly what you want in your home . Many guys still have the need to build a wall full of pumps and controls and valves and all sorts of shit that is unnecessary when they could order a package that has it all and is less complicated but they deem too expensive . What you are firgetting is the basic rule of business , time is money , at least mine is . You and others can build all the crazy trash you want at the end of the year I will spend hardly any time on service and will have completed 4 more complete projects than my peers . Please be accurate BC , I will engage in constructive discussion forever , anyone here can attest to that but I have no time for nonsensical garbage . By the way , what you are about to embark on was tried and failed long ago, this is the reason equipment like HTP has developed was developed . The difference between your GPVX and ANY boiler is this , the boiler was built to run 24/7 for 5-7 months a year , under those conditions your GPVX will end it's first season seeing as much use as it would just being a water heater for 6 years . Have fun getting warranty service from AO  

Rob Brown

@ July 10, 2014 1:38 PM in New Radiant System

Design Manager at Rockport Mechanical in Lewiston Maine

Performing 2 tasks

@ July 10, 2014 12:40 PM in Getting into mod/con business

sounds daunting ?  It's kinda like walking and chewing gum , gets even easier when you're not expected to do both at once .

Question for BC

@ July 10, 2014 12:37 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Is your home hot water heated or steam heated at present  ?

Why yes

@ July 10, 2014 12:32 PM in Getting into mod/con business

they can and do recognize what is calling .  Most even power the circulator for the DHW as well as central heating circulator .  Sensor (10 -12k) usually sends signal to boiler , boiler adjusts SWT accordingly until demand is gone or programmed max time is reached than will return to space heating temp requirements based on ODR or some other programmed temp .  All this debate about mod/cons and you were not aware of these capabilities ? 


@ July 10, 2014 11:11 AM in Radiant cooling

Ultra Aire SD12

Where from ?

@ July 10, 2014 10:55 AM in Getting into mod/con business

Moving energy

@ July 10, 2014 9:14 AM in Hydronic underfloor used to effectively enlarge direct solar thermal mass?

Felix ,
  Good to see you took my advice . There are many very informed open minded folks here whom will be more than happy to attempt to help . In another thread titled peer review please is an industry leader who has several ideas to do what you are planning or inquiring about only difference being the energy he seeks to collect and move for other purposes is outside , but moving energy from one place to another is just that whether it is outside or in .
  Passive houses can be funny and there may be other ideas or areas that could be utilized more efficiently than a floor in these homes . When we think about the assembly we must realize that the solar energy will only contact certain parts of the floor , those beginning however many feet into the room that the angle of the sun and the window size and height determine for us  .  I always thought a much better place for this solar gain component would be a wall which had similar mass . That assembly in my mind would solve the problem of the south facing rooms overheating , once heated would transfer the energy to the north also benefitting the whole home as opposed to just one side .
  Some of the experimentation and information on this type of strategy is more than a decade old and the time to re examine them is beginning . With the mainstreaming of ECM circulators , off the shelf controls and a better understanding of things it should certainly be feasible at this time or at least developable . There are too many opportunities missed in the name of the dollar in my humble opinion . Joe Lstiburek said it best in his paper " It's about the energy Stupid" . We are either going to make gains by doing it for real or stop thinking you're gonna save the planet by doing things halfway because that's what someone determined for you . Every individual has to decide what his budget will allow and make a conscious decision about how far he will go and not let someone whom is a self proclaimed or recognized expert tell him what is right or wrong . Believe me , there are plenty of recognized experts out there , most of which became that way because they were around in the beginning and nobody knew anything then . Those are the very same people whom the manufacturers lobbied to push their kind of technology . They have become complacent and comfortable and do all they can to remain that way . I have no loyalty to any manufacturer , group or entity and like others here will speak and think about whatever deserves exploration as long as it is beneficial to the end goal which so many have lost sight of .
  Have a good look around and open your mind further . We wet heads have much to offer but are mainly not utilized by a large segment because they have dealt with monetarily successful folks who may or may not have been worthy of their success . Welcome to the discussion .


@ July 10, 2014 6:47 AM in New Radiant System

is no longer at NRT RobG . A simple search could probably locate him though .

Denigrating Path

@ July 10, 2014 6:06 AM in Getting into mod/con business

Not particularly BC , I simply decided to refrain from being sucked into the vortex of a debate about unrelated nonsense on a thread someone asked a specific question .
As far as my return with an affordable solution I offer the following . I learned a long time ago that every job is different and requires a different approach and different equipment specific to that job . With the knowledge we now possess many of us know that depending on circumstances beyond our control both types of technology may gain benefit from mass due to zoning , changing heat load requirements , etc . There are also many of us whom regularly add components to systems that in our opinion are required and this is probably a good thing as we are professionals .  On many jobs that are retrofit where extensive work can not be done at that time because of many reasons but will or will not be in the future I sometimes turn to this product because it has built in air elimination , dirt separator , mass , modulating burner , condensing technology , superior materials and requires about the same maintenance as a cast iron boiler . When I do the math and include all the components and labor involved with them which I would include anyway this unit actually usually costs less to the consumer .

Have a nice day and no you don't get the shirt . I will send you one though just for making me laugh . Send me your info in a PM so I can ship it .


@ July 9, 2014 9:37 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Did you mean GC124/3 BC ?  Just for accuracy .

Deleted Threads

@ July 9, 2014 9:31 PM in Getting into mod/con business

Can anyone name what they have in common ?  Whoever comes up with the correct answer first will receive a beautiful blue Langans Plumbing and Heating shirt . This hirt is made of 100% cotton and sports the motto " Considerate People , Considerate Service , Consider it Done " . Unlike some folks we spared no expense in this purchase for the comfort of our men .  I will determine the winner by the time stamps of the answers and contact the winner for their preferred method of delivery . Thanks for participating . Contest ends at 7:00 A.M July 10 2014

Math and Equipment

@ July 9, 2014 8:06 AM in Getting into mod/con business

are funny things . There is no choice with math , it is what it is . You can choose equipment and method of install .  BC , how bout this calculation for the sake of argument .  !00K mod con and 100K cast iron boiler . Price difference 500.00 . If I can make the mod con not short cycle , give it mass and modulate it , would there then be a CLEAR and CONCISE winner ?  You guys all chew on that for the day and I'll be back tonight .


@ July 8, 2014 8:45 PM in New Radiant System

TRVs with Bypasses and constant circulation . 

Utica Wall Hung

@ July 8, 2014 8:40 PM in Utica boiler

or SSC as it is marketed is a fine product George . It is in fact manufactured by ECR International and is the exact same boiler as The Dunkirk Helix . Just a bad install , not the boilers fault . I would install one any day if that is what fit the bill for a particular job .
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