Joined on May 27, 2011
Last Post on December 10, 2013
@ September 19, 2013 12:17 AM in Zone actuators & zone valvesyou have multiple zones in an area where only 1 manifold is desirable or possible .
@ September 17, 2013 8:07 PM in Zone actuators & zone valvesin effect are zone valves for each loop . You would not need additional zone valves .
@ September 12, 2013 9:20 PM in Radiant Heat not Heatingemission plates . Yes you should have a space between them . An inch is usually good . They will expand as anything that gets hot does , they should have room to do so without affecting adjacent plates or putting undue stress on tubing .
@ September 10, 2013 6:27 AM in High efficiency gas boilersElite Ft would be a good choice , I believe the munchkin is discontinued . Don't even take one if there is some in the pipeline for cheap , there is a reason for this .
Measuring your existing baseboard radiation is not a substitute for a proper heat loss and may end up giving you a too large boiler . After having a heat loss performed however you may find out that there is too much baseboard and be able to lower your water temps .
Contacting Scott may be just the solution to your problem .
I would certainly have whomever does this job leave provision for the addition of the indirect heater later . Although your water heater is only 2 years old you may still want to sacrifice it for the indirect now . Making your Domestic hot water will certainly be less expensive and will immediately start toward recouping the cost of this work . Just a thought .
@ September 8, 2013 8:12 PM in High efficiency gas boilersattack someone Carl ? I re read my last response several times and fail to see an attack or condemnation of anyones' opinion . Possibly these are local water issues that some experience but not in my area . Sorry to hear that you and some others have had a bad experience . Now , I will say that if anybody asked for an endorsement on the S120 indirect I will say with venom , NO WAY ! Only Buderus product I have had an issue with .
@ September 8, 2013 7:15 PM in Do I have enough gas, coming from meterthat Tim . You can surely see where your response may elicit him to doubt the installed piping's effectiveness though ? Correct , we do not know what type of pressure he is receiving , thus the advice to observe the regulator information . I am fortunate to be in an area where such pressure problems do not exist , it is a luxury . Tim , what are your thoughts on those same problems being lessened by educating as to sizing the installed systems in this way ?
@ September 8, 2013 1:25 PM in Do I have enough gas, coming from meterI do not mean to challenge you . But you are well respected in the industry and maybe we should really start to educate the installers / designers . After all the intent of the code is to minimize the hazards associated with the storage and distribution of explosive gasses within the built environment , is it not ? In the example given by the Op . 384,000 with the first being 10 feet in and 199,000 the pressure loss through that segment of the system would be .18" wc , assuming an 8" reg with a 1/2" drop through the meter we would have 7.32" at the tee , the segment from the tee to the equipment could be 33.13 feet of 1/2" (@.067" pdpf) and still supply with all fixtures calling . The second segment according to our poster would be 185,000 . 190,000 would have a pressure drop of .005" per foot for steel pipe . 7.32" minus 5.1 inches would give us an allowable pressure drop of 2.25" . 2.25" divided by .005" would allow us to go 450 feet to the remaining 185,000 . Is this not correct ?
I am only speaking in terms of what we can do , here in NJ the utilities would love to see us only use a .5" pressure drop and the longest run method , but should we ? We are allowed to utilize any of the sizing methods at our disposal , maybe not so everywhere . But from a physics standpoint barring the complete lack of physics in an area the sizing methods should be utilized to design the best system . It would be a shame for someone with an installed system that is in fact adequate to spend time and money to upgrade or change for reasons that do not exist . What say you ?
@ September 8, 2013 1:07 PM in Do I have enough gas, coming from meterTim, I believe you are using a .3" chart . Is that Correct? Allowable Pressure drop as defined in 402.5 in the IFGC is "the design pressure loss in any piping system under maximum probable flow conditions from the point of delivery"(meter)"to the inlet of the equipment shall be such that the supply pressure at the equipment is greater than the minimum supply pressure required for proper equipment operation. "
Taking this approach , the installed system may in fact be large enough . Sew-kul , what is the range in inches water column stamped on the regulator prior to the meter . 5-6" , 6-8" ?
@ September 8, 2013 12:03 PM in Preparing ahead of time for a boiler replacement...I would suggest that you use what you have to your advantage . I Would certainly stay away from a low mass heat source with small HX . If you do go that way make sure you have a quality dirt elimination device , Caleffi SEP-4 would be a good choice . I recommend an HTP Pioneer (PHR100or130-55) . Dirt elimination becomes less of a problem also with this equipment for obvious reasons . A quality air separator only would suffice . This unit has a 5" center tube and 2- 1 1/8" spiral tubes that make up the heat exchanger , no small channels that will require loads of maintenance and nothing to be compromised . No Primary / secondary required , ODR is a snap , really allows for the KISS method you are looking for . http://www.htproducts.com/literature/pioneerbrochure.pdf . Sounds to me as if the head losses will be minimal due to the pipe sizing , you only have to make sure that you overcome the highest head loss but be sure to pump adequate GPM . On a system such as yours , if it's 100K , 5 GPM would be good since the radiators will function real nice at a 40* Delta T , this should keep you condensing even at design day conditions . My personal choice for a pump would be a TACO 00 VDT (008-0013) or if head loss allows the Bumble Bee is best ( electrical savings also) , set whichever to 40* and you should be good to go .
The Pioneers cost in the middle range between cheap combis and higher end wall hungs , it is really versatile . Due to the materials used in construction it should last longer than many of your other choices , with a little maintenance quite possibly a couple decades , maybe longer . Check it out and hope this was a help .
@ September 8, 2013 10:31 AM in High efficiency gas boilersyou must locate and contact someone to do a complete heat loss of the house . You can probably find one in the Find a contractor section here . This will determine what the house requires and also what kind of boilers are a GOOD MATCH for this particular home .
As far as staying away from Buderus GB units . Hogwash . Now I will be the first to admit that I am no Metallurgist but I have actually talked to several that concurred on a simple fact . The Buderus aluminum is cast , which means it is solid , Stainless steel on the other hand according to the REAL metal experts is almost always in sheet form and must then be bent or formed to shape , when this bending and manipulating of the metal takes place it leaves points that may be compromised or weaker than if left in original shape and form . I have many Buderus GB142 & 162's in service and have had zero problems with their heat exchangers in many varying water quality areas . The Buderus is the most service friendly unit there is of those mentioned . HTP also has some very nice units , not all of them low mass like the ones so far discussed . Not all with a Gianonni HX either . The Pioneer boiler has plenty of mass and any sytem using one would be hard pressed to short cycle , need a quarter of the maintenance and is efficient as all the others . No Primary / secondary piping required , HX is CuproNickel , not aluminum or stainless , and in my opinion is the easiest unit to replace medium efficiency units and not get into installer trouble . http://www.htproducts.com/literature/pioneerbrochure.pdf. By the way the Elite also comes in a configuration other than the infamous Gianonni HX , it is the Elite FT (firetube) . Just in case wall hung install is a must .
First off though , have that heat loss done
@ September 6, 2013 8:22 AM in High efficiency gas boilersMy question before advising or speaking on your contractors' recommendations is , what type of emitters are in the house ? Baseboard , radiators , other ? Second would be , did any of these men perform a heat loss and do the calculations to determine if your water temperatures for the existing emitters could be brought down low enough to ACTUALLY give you the benefit of the rated AFUE ? This is probably the most important question for you to have answered . While all the boilers named are top of the line equipment they all have one thing in common , that would be that if you cannot heat your home with low enough temps to make them condense they are not much more efficient than a conventional cast iron boiler , there are ways to make them play nice with high temp emitters but I would be wary that a 5 year man possesses that knowledge .
@ September 3, 2013 9:40 PM in Radiant Floor HelpYou will have to excuse me in my following comment , a rebuttal to your superior attitude . Some on this site may look at you as other than what you are , a man , just like the rest of us . I , my friend am not one of them . I will address your last post one point at a time .
Rob says : don't know if it would be worth it or not. I don't know your heat loss or the impact of whatever the water temperature differential would be on your efficiency, need for supplemental heat, number of mixed water temps, or zoning. I would be skeptical that the "all in, apples to apples" price difference is so high on any but the absolute largest projects.
My heat loss does not matter , for the sake of this discussion we will say my heat loss is the same as yours . A home that is well insulated , has 15% glazing area , R21 walls , R35 ceilings , R19 below our panels . You know , just a well built house . We agree we are not discussing paper thin faux aluminum such as in the garbage many use on a regular basis . I do not know what your zoning strategy is but mine is as follows : Extensive , taking into account orientation , use patterns , finish floor R values , BTU per sq ft requirements . I also don't know what your water temp strategies are but mine are as follows : I rarely use more than 1 temp because of the way I zone , it works like this surface temp determines air temp , air temp satisfies t stat , zone shuts off , no more flow , no more heat . Pretty simple . Price difference is really very high as I mentioned , The house that is referenced is only 5,800 ft ( small in my little niche market) and the difference is 14,000.00 . I will probably do 10 such size projects this year , I will keep my 140K and not send it to California . Now let's discuss Resistance , I believe , correct me if I am wrong , that 2 different products which in the final stage has 7/8" of plywood below the tubing and R 19 insulation as opposed to a product that has 5/8" of plywood and R 19 that one of these would suffer just a bit less downward loss . Now take into account that 8" spacing always requires lower SWTs . What about the thickness of the aluminum ? I say the .007 will heat and begin transfer a bit more rapidly , this is negligible , and in my humble opinion has not much bearing on our similar systems .
I think the speed at which we transfer energy into the room is miniscule , the water temps will certainly be lower . Rob , it takes quite a bit longer to feel 180* water through L copper than through M copper , that difference is only .003" , so I can safely say Sunboard will begin upward momentum a bit faster .
I never pretend my friend , I just make logical conclusions taking all factors into account . 14,000.00 , lower SWTs , similar response time , better downward losses , locally produced . No skimping on quality in my opinion and I am very discerning and refuse to put out a substandard product .
But Rob if you want to pay for more aluminum , a West Coast lifestyle and a hefty Freight bill , be my guest .
@ September 1, 2013 12:27 PM in Slab overpour "Radiant Green" hydronic heating panels?Nice try with that you tube video . Now , what would happen if you put a Styrofoam lid on the cup Geniuses ? I can tell you , the heat would travel in a 360* radius out from the cup . Now imagine R value over top of the tubes in the form of overpour and finish floor . Hmm.. Why a reflective coating for below subfloor , what are you reflecting ? The shiny stuff myth rears its head again . I believe you can only reflect light , now I could be wrong but if you put aluminum foil in the oven or better yet on a Bar B Q can you touch one side and not the other or is one side cooler than the other . Works on homeowners but not real effective argument with me .
@ September 1, 2013 12:13 PM in Radiant Floor HelpSunboard Panel has 2 thicknesses of aluminum , .002 & .007 . Which are you looking at ? My thought on this is as follows . Either product (wb or sb ) will heat up rapidly and transfer heat to the space . As far as the same level , where do we draw a line , I think there is a diminishing return . I always see everyone using payback so here it is . Is an extra couple thousandths of thickness worth an extra 14,000.00 on my project , that is the price difference taking all involved into account . Will that couple thousandths of an inch ever be worth the investment or higher first cost . Warmboard has never had any real competitor , now let's see what their economic stance becomes because until now it has been pretty rigid . I also believe that the Graphite covered product is gonna beat the hell out of both the aluminum products .
@ August 30, 2013 8:33 AM in The Hydronic Formula and it's limitationshas no limitations except people who doubt it's relevance , do not use it , believe it has a cut off point .
@ August 28, 2013 9:24 PM in CSSTNot defending the product nor condemning it . Guys , this is an installer problem . The lawsuits are old and the manufacturers were pretty much covered . The manuals CLEARLY state that the product must be bonded continuous through appropriate means . This is not new and actually has been in the codes for quite some time . At what point did the Authorities Having Jurisdiction deem the " ALL portions of above ground gas piping shall be bonded " part of the NGC , IFGC not important enough to enforce . Lightning strikes will happen and they will happen most of the time at the meter , this is where the protection should be . No gas piping should be subjected to current of that magnitude . Just a shell game , at what point does steel become too weak . I would say it was long before the appearance of CSST to market because that statement has been in the codes for a LONG TIME . Just sayin , installers need to know what they are using and how to use it . Don' t know what rock some people were hiding under but this was a huge story that was nowhere near hidden from view to anyone in the industry .
@ August 28, 2013 10:04 AM in change old gravity systempiping arrangement are they connected in now ? Think series is a bad idea with rads . I would lean toward 2 pipe reverse return or parallel manifold .
@ August 25, 2013 9:44 PM in Radiant Floor Helpwas visiting 3 homes that were completed for a new builder I wanted to aquire . All had radiant and all felt really good . Asked what product was there , he explained that it was a plywood product with aluminum skin that went down into the grooves also . I stated that it was Warmboard and he emphatically told me ' No , it isn't this stuff is half the cost . Anyway , I now have the builder , have spoken to the owner of Sun Board in LI . Lead time is real reasonable , shipping also , Support seems great , he can design and I have orders in at present for 2- 7000 + homes . They have a lot of new stuff hitting shortly also , one is a plywood product that substitutes the aluminum with Graphite , even better heat transfer and a product which I have to find the right job for , it is 1" Styrofoam with a graphite covering all the way around the grooves , made well but I don't know how folks will feel about foam based . In essence , it's Warmboard without the California Price . Hey , they might have to be concerned about a competing product now and the price will come down . Both houses that I will be putting it in came down after all was considered by better than 14.000.00 . that's a job getter my friend . Those houses will have the 3/4 with 1/2 tubing . Also has a paper layer over the aluminum for flooring , tubing also stays in channel but is free moving , less noise potential .
@ August 25, 2013 6:47 PM in Radiant Floor HelpSunboard Panel . More to choose from and a very fine product . More cost effective than warmboard and the SAME RESULT
@ August 24, 2013 10:51 PM in The Hydronic Formula and it's limitationsThe delta T is the driver of the heat transfer either out of the emitter or into the system at the boiler or heat source.
The larger the delta the more energy transfer, and vice versa.
If there is no delta T then there is no energy transfer. And if this happens when the load calls or needs heat, you might have a flow condition present that is preventing it.
No need for drunk drivers though Bob , all over the road , smashing stuff up and killing system efficiency . Think of these pumps that CAN keep your DESIGNED FOR diff as a drive by wire mechanism , if the drunk driver veers left or right it is corrected by others before disaster can happen .
"The larger the delta the more energy transfer, and vice versa.
If there is no delta T then there is no energy transfer. And if this happens when the load calls or needs heat, you might have a flow condition present that is preventing it. "
I agree , I also don't concern myself with this nonsense . If there is no Delta T in a system the zone better be satisfied and if there is no heat transfer when there is a call I did something horribly wrong . This condition should not happen . And if it does I will find another profession .
About Geo Thermal equipment . I would love to discuss my thoughts on that in another discussion but not here , the reason for this is that you only require a pump and a source of heated fluid or earth for Geo Thermal , a ground source heat pump is another animal completely . I repeat , Geo Thermal requires no mechanical assistance other than to move naturally heated fluid to your system .
@ August 24, 2013 3:37 PM in The Hydronic Formula and it's limitationsare forward observers and relayers of information . They are telling the device what has been taken out . The emitters have decided what has been transferred and relay the information to the device via an amazing thing we shall call our heat transfer medium or fluid . If it went out at 140 and comes back at 110 the device will slow down the flow if the 140 came back at 130 it would slow down the flow . In either case I cannot understand the discord here . Heat has been lost somewhere in the system , was it through the S & R pipng which here in my projects is insulated ? Are we disputing that the pump reacts to the information it is receiving in real time from the system . What if a designer employed Outdoor reset and used a Delta t pump such as what I do . What then ? I'll tell you what the water temps would vary depending on conditions and the Delta T circ would make slight changes to flow , something the fixed speed pumps can't and delta P variety can but not as well . My earlier jobs do not perform as well as the ones I have installed since choosing the better alternative . It's no wonder our entire industry and market share are where they are . Too many damned geniuses spouting too much different information to too many people installing systems poorly to begin with .
I think it is more desirable for the piping and emitters to have a sweet spot than for the pump to have a sweet spot . In this way all the rooms (you know , the places where the recipients of the heat are) will all experience some level of comfort as opposed to the circulator being happy in it's nice little warm spot .
STFU . We are now designing systems that are as about as efficient as we are gonna make them , people are paying less to heat their homes than ever before , and manufacturers all have their share of the pie .
Unless someone is gonna come up with a new Universal Hydronics Formula and change every standard we now use and explain to us why this is being done . Be quiet .
Sorry for the rant .
One last thing . Delta T is the by product of what has been delivered under any flow , laminar or turbulent , if no transfer took place there would be 0 Delta T . Won't Jean david Beyer be thrilled .