Joined on May 27, 2011
Last Post on March 7, 2014
@ November 18, 2013 5:51 PM in monofloWeez . ECMs really do have issues with nasties that can be attracted to them and foul them up in a hurry .
@ November 18, 2013 5:38 PM in What unit to use with panel rads and sidearmhow expensive HTP is . Don't quite understand why I keep hearing that , I am in the largest most expensive market there is and I find quite economical . Oh well , have at it my friend
@ November 18, 2013 8:22 AM in monoflomake an effort to design system so the system curve runs through center 1/3 of pump curve . Paul for the Bee that would be in a range 3 gpm @ 2.5' HD and 7 gpm @ 8 ' HD , that system curve takes you dead through the sweet spot in variable speed or constant T mode . Swei would be correct about operating at the bottom of the curve . Your wire to water efficiency would also suck .
@ November 17, 2013 3:52 PM in New Construction Tankless Heatingnotice that this system piping configuration has changed in the pic w/o controls to the pic with controls ? The top 2 loops supply in the first pic is fed directly through the run of a tee and the latter pic has a 90* feeding that supply .
@ November 17, 2013 3:42 PM in monofloset up as Constant T has a curve similar to 003 when operating at 9 watts and like the 008 when operating at it's peak 42 watts . The 2 curves between those are not really comparable with any other 00 family circulator . Have no idea what you'll need in the way of flow / head for this , just pointing out differing HEC-2 curves .
@ November 17, 2013 2:57 PM in New Construction Tankless Heatingseems to have set up the system using red for supply (hot) and blue for return (cool) . This can only be done by joinng lengths of red and blue tubing therefore creating a buried joint or possibly joint not buried but in either case a potential leak path that was otherwise not necessary . The upper and lower rows are both space heating . The mixing valve directly below the heater is your hot main and the pipe coming into that valve from the right is cold potable water .
@ November 17, 2013 10:37 AM in New Construction Tankless HeatingIf this heat exchanger and the circulator are not stainless steel you will have problems . Does this system have a pressure reducing valve and backflow preventer , I cannot identify that there is or is not one from the pictures , but I am damn near blind . O also don't see any air elimination which would certainly be a good thing due to the use of potable water tubing . This is possibly the first system I have ever seen where measures were taken (HX) to isolate open and closed portions from each other and then use tubing that allows air into the system Carl and Paul , is that the PRV and BFP between the Expansion tank and HX ?
@ November 17, 2013 10:10 AM in What unit to use with panel rads and sidearmwant to look at the HTP Phoenix with a solar HX . You could use the solar HX to heat the tank ( hold out burner) , store in the tank at 160* , you could store higher with the commercial unit . Set your wood buffer to pump when either DHW or space heating call . The Phoenix will act as the middleman , a middleman that when your primary source does not deliver will gladly manufacture and deliver what you need . The Phoenix has 2 standard outlets on the side which are expressly for hydronic heating of varying types NOT CHEAP , but nothing that you want to do can be done CHEAP and be of any quality . http://www.htproducts.com/phoenixwaterheater.html . It is a water heater , mod con , buffer tank , call it what you will it is versatile and will do what you want . You will need to supply on HX between the Tank (Phoenix) and rads . If you just have to go with your initial thought use the Bosch Greenstar boiler . Old reliable HX and good technology , I trust German manufacturing a bit more than Korean . Plus the guys at Bosch understand what we do much better than the Navien Tech guys
@ November 17, 2013 9:55 AM in monofloAfter reading Paul's comments several times I came to the conclusion that the budget was certainly capped and he was going to attempt a band aid repair . In an attempt to offer a solution that would keep him within an unrealistic budget I made my suggestion . I know full well the consequences and I believe that Paul does also and would inform the parties of how this fix would influence the rest of the system .
I would figure out what the actual heat loss is , attempt to come up with a proper design and configuration and offer to do that . Upon their decision to not spend the required monies I would walk away as the other companies have done . Gentlemen , I give one price for jobs dealing with a certain scope of work , that price is a guaranteed maximum price for the best system for a particular building based on information given me by the end user , that price may be too much (often is times they had unreasonable expectations ) then we can explore lesser systems but still better than 90% of the garbage others are installing , afterwards if the price is still Too high I bid them farewell . Many times I hear from these same folks after a heating season or 2 and much frustration later . At that point in time after they were told how the system they were allowing to be installed would operate there are no more questions or doubt about your knowledge . This is a help site for all , even other professionals , I offered help along the lines that I believe Paul will go anyway . If Paul wants an ethics or business class he should look elsewhere and not to us .
Paul , if this builder or others regularly do this to you or expect you to fix others or their screw ups , get rid of em . They will return , they always do , been there done that . If this is in fact 30% of your work base you need to replace that work with other work . Hell I turn down work in Northern NJ all the time because of lack of resources (qualified labor) . I'd bet I could get that work and you could do it . That would probably replace the frustrating portion of what you do .
@ November 16, 2013 10:08 AM in The right system circulator with a Viessmann WB2B 35The bumble bee should work just fine with your system requirements . Just watch your calculations and head 109,000 @ 25 Delta is 8.72 GPM if 100% water . If you increased the Delta to 35 that would put you right in the middle of the curve 2 & 3 for the Bumble Bee and would take you farther into the efficiency be it ever so slight .
Would using 2 Bumble Bees be out of the question ? Then both 1 1/4 circuits would remain as is , balancing would be at a minimum , considering whether it was balanced well to begin with and you would operate at 22 watts as opposed to 32 on design day . 1 at 32 or 2 at 44 and ultimate control .
@ November 16, 2013 9:35 AM in monofloPlease feel free to correct me if I am wrong .
Will a radiant zone not turn off when the thermostat has been satisfied ? Does not surface temp of the floor determine when thermostat is satisfied ? Yes floor surface temp will vary depending on conditions . But under all those conditions the T Stat will satisfy . The finish floor and tile will only absorb and experience the heat required to satisfy zone , it does not matter what temp is running through the tubing because we are only dealing with one zone that is independent of rest of system . I zone aggressively and only zone rooms on the same zone that have similar finish floor R values , have similar use patterns , and have similar BTU per ft requirements . After years of doing this I have yet to see a floor , no matter what material it was overheat or be damaged . I regularly put hotter water than a particular loop or circuit needs by zoning this way and have had no complaints , in fact have been asked how come it is more responsive than in my house ? Does anyone see a problem with treating this as an independent zone with a circ (Delta T) , a thermostat and a relay as OP originally was thinking ?
Remember , when floor surface reaches X thermostat will satisfy , flow will stop and the floor will get no hotter . Forget the mixing , zoning is less expensive and requires less thought . Control will be just fine with the Delta T circ and a Taco hydraulic separator . Of course you will need to figure the approximate true length of this circuit and determine the head loss to size this pump but I believe this will be done within what your contractor/ heating specialist is willing to pay for you to correct his mistake . Let this zone operate independent of everything else in the system . The short amount of time that this zone calls should not overheat the other rooms to an uncomfortable level . Good luck
@ November 15, 2013 3:06 PM in monoflowould you require at design ? and what is your GPM requirement ? You may be able to control this very well .
@ November 14, 2013 1:32 PM in Multi-unit house Electric Radiant Floor or Forced Air/Gas?1 Kw = 3,414 BTU
1 Therm = 100,000 BTU
These are both billing units used by utilities . If 29.3 Kw of electrical energy costs less than 1 therm I think you have your answer . Where I am in NJ the Kw costs .14 and the therm costs .52 . So here , in this market my choice would be between 4.10 and .52 . or 8xS more expensive for electric .
@ November 12, 2013 12:08 AM in Radiant floor heat not heating properlyif you are willing to allow him to just replace the existing pump . That should get you through . I would most definitely advise you to find out more , maybe hire someone to do a proper room by room heat loss . I would say get rid of the zone valves , employ some thermal actuators for rooms 2 & 3 and the others on the 5 loop and add required thermostats . Find out the actual head losses for each loop and fix this thing up top as best you can . Too big boiler for your house my friend for sure , gonna keep on short cycling and wear that thing out quick , a real shame . I noticed Uponor manifolds , zone control modules . Is the pex Uponor also , is this man recognized by Uponor as an HCT ? Where are you in Minnesota , anywhere near Prior Lake ? Maybe you could contact someone around there ? I know at least 4 guys from the Minneapolis / St Paul area that could quite probably help you make this system the best it will get at this point . Remember though , accept nothing but the Taco 0013 VDT at this point and dial it in to a 10 - 15 degree Delta T , the extra 5 degrees will help slightly with your cycling issue . And for Christ's sake move that thermostat out of the lowest heat loss , warmest area and put it on the angled wall at foyer , great room junction or in the coldest bedroom . If your family likes a little chill while sleeping put it out in the foyer or the angled wall , at least that way the zone will stay on a little longer and let some BTUs into those bedrooms .
@ November 11, 2013 10:03 PM in Radiant floor heat not heating properlyWhat manifold are they on ? You only have 9 loops in a 2200 square foot house , is this correct ? That home would require app. 3300' of tubing at 8" on center and 2750' at 12" on center . At 12 your average loop length is 305' and at 8 the average loop length is 366' . You my friend are in trouble . You will need an in depth analysis of what loops are on what manifolds , what rooms are zoned together , and how much pump you will need to push fluid through those long lengths to salvage some of your sanity . I would venture a guess that your boiler is oversized also . 50 BTUh per sq. ft is a bit heavy handed even in the coldest of climates . Where are you located ? You will certainly need someone to hydraulically separate your system from the boiler . Sorry to say you have a lot on your plate . Is this installer avoiding you now or can you persuade him to remedy the situation or at least hold him responsible so you can be reimbursed for whatever the cost is to have another make it at least work acceptably and keep you warm ? Did this slab get insulated below the tubing ? Where the hell did you find this guy ?
@ November 9, 2013 6:52 AM in R-valuehas a low R value . Natural stone products such as Granite and lime or sand stone have the following R values . Granite has an R value of point 05 per inch and sand/lime stone have R of point 08 per inch making your wall if any of these materials 1.2 overall R and 1.92 . Is the wall you ask about natural material or something else .
remember that the more dense the material the lower the R value will be , concrete at 60 pounds per foot will have an R of point 52 per inch and the same concrete at 150 pounds per foot will have an R value of point 07 per inch , that is a huge difference .
@ November 6, 2013 7:15 AM in Slow leak at joint (picture)Advice was asked for and advice was given (sound advice at that) . What would possess you to make an adversarial comment about another's opinion ? Best off just giving your advice and calling it a day . Unless of course the advice given endangered the OP or his property . Just my .02 . By the way OP , call a licensed plumber !
@ October 21, 2013 5:59 PM in HTP Elite FT boiler not modulating low enough...problem?ended up being Primary / secondary ? Sounds like the Delta T in the the primary loop is low . The energy is being taken out somewhere . I agree with the others in te fact that a nice long efficient cycle is a good thing , the only thing better is when the boiler is not firing at all .
@ October 21, 2013 5:29 PM in Buderus GB142 Circ pump questionreally tell from pictures . Which line is the expansion tank connected to on this boiler . That low loss header really would work better with the pump on the supply side of that LLH . Just my opinion .
@ October 19, 2013 12:14 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?is a Schmuck .
Here is my take on a solution that is not too difficult and fits with your lifestyle and chosen setup .
Central to this system is a Heat-Flo HF-60-D tank (2 coils) . Cast iron boiler feeds the bottom coil , water in tank is heated to 180* , this tank is your storage tank and as DHW is used it is mixed down to 115* via a Taco 5000 DHW mixing valve , when heat is required pump ( Dt) with Taco I Series ODR mixing valve on suction side gives you outdoor reset and you only use the required BTU for that moment in time . the heat exchanger for this operation is the top coil . Control is a high / low limit aquastat that shuts off at 180* tank temp and fires boiler when tank temp is 150* . Both pumps could probably be Bumble Bees that would consume a whopping 44 watts combined when really working hard .
Just a suggestion
@ October 18, 2013 9:11 PM in why use primary/secondary if not needed?of the definition of Extrapolation . Many of my home performance friends like to extrapolate all kinds of things while MODELING homes that live in the software on their computer I unfortunately have the task of keeping REAL people in Real houses during Real winters (possibly harsher than what you extrapolated for ) comfortable in their houses . I cannot tell you how many times I have heard from these well intentioned nerds that it worked in the model . Funny thing about the systems we are talking about is the fact that in a harsh winter their efficiencies vary from not so cold times . No extrapolation is best left to scientists and guys in offices . When most of us design and install systems we want the customers to be warm on every day no matter what the outdoor conditions and second we , well I don't wanna be bothered with people that need toi where a sweater like a European telling me I did not do good enough .
Delta T varies on the amount of heat actually being emitted through the system . Supply water temp has nothing to do with Delta T . If the SWT is 90 and the Delta T is 20* and you are pumping 2.9 GPM the space used 29,000 BTU and if the temp stayed the same and you pumped 5.6 GPM the space received 56,000 BTU . I would hardly call that hardly pumping and in fact would call it efficient pumping and only using what you need and xconserving energy . So in April and October I guess using only 9/22/32/42 watts to give you what you need damn near to the enth degree really sucks huh ?
@ October 18, 2013 8:55 PM in underfloor heating in a multi-family buildingtubing was used for the in floor panels ? Any chance of you allowing us to view the near boiler piping and pumping arrangement ? And as above where are you located ?