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Rich

Rich

Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on September 1, 2014

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Pretty

@ June 18, 2014 2:48 PM in HTP ModCon retrofit

they do plumb and chain together so nice .  Surprised you didn't use the mod con double stacks .  This job will without a doubt please the owners and accountants .

Protection

@ June 18, 2014 7:25 AM in 95% Efficient Condensing Replacement Boiler

from what ? Low EWT , this is condensing equipment where the lower the EWT the better .  By the way , when water leaves a piece of equipment at a lower temp than it returns it's called air conditioning . We are talking about leaving BTUs in the building are we not ?  I am intrigued to see the house or building that produces energy , so is the entire world for that matter . 
  This is kinda the basis for the recent comments on this discussion . Trying to solve problems that arise when the wrong piece of equipment is specified . If you need to figure out how to make something work to a certain standard it is most likely the wrong equipment and should not have been brought up to begin with . 

George

@ June 17, 2014 8:25 PM in 95% Efficient Condensing Replacement Boiler

Do you know what circ is installed from the factory ?  Is it a 3 speed and whose pump is it ?
  Harvey , I did hear the same thing but cannot verify and interestingly enough what type of circ , HX flow characteristics are not to be found in my search for this info .

Seems to me

@ June 17, 2014 6:23 PM in 95% Efficient Condensing Replacement Boiler

that depending on system piping and requirement of emitters that P / S piping is not always necessary .  If the on board circulator can move enough fluid at design through the emitters and the HX why would you require P/S piping ? I see that no P/S is shown for use with an air handler George , is this boiler smart enough that it can determine what it is supplying ?
  As far as gas piping this thing I see that it will operate at a 3.5" w.c pressure at the inlet . This is a good thing and the fact that it works with 1/2" pipe is not surprising . Think about this now , NJNG uses an 8" w.c regulator in most areas of service where I am located .  With a 1/2" P.D through the meter you still have 7.5" available , if you sized a header properly for all fixtures calling and used the allowable pressure drop you could pull off the following ,
  7.5" after meter 425,000 total load , 1 1/2" x 10' Iron pipe header would have a pressure drop of .03" with all appliances calling leaving 7.47" available at the farthest tee on header .  7.47" minus 3.6" to NCB gives an allowable pressure drop of 3.87" w.c .  3.87" / .039" p.d per foot of 1/2" I.P @ 150,000 CFH = 99.231 feet .    The point I am trying make is that you can't call somebody cheap and you have to read between the BS and not just spout off specs from a book and the same piece and type of equipment is not the cure all .  I shout from the hilltop about HTP but if you notice when I shout I usually refer to different models and types of units that all react differently depending on system design requirements .
   Do you have the guts to install 99 feet of 1/2" black iron to the NCB because it will work ?  I doubt you would because the book says so . George , be the guy who writes the books and quit reading  , move beyond where other guys are and be the best and for God's sake use something made here in America .

Rob

@ June 17, 2014 2:52 PM in 95% Efficient Condensing Replacement Boiler

Do you really use those charts ?  Depending on where you are and the regulator the utility uses those charts will have your gas pipe oversized most of the time .
Just like when we do room by room heat losses , in my opinion we should also do the math for gas pipe sizing if meeting the INTENT of the code is important .  The intent is "to minimize the hazards associated with , within the building "     Basis for this method can be found in 402.5 IFGC if that is your model code . Barring the fact that unless you and others are in an atmospheric bubble where physics acts differently than where others are located it works there too and is an approved engineering method , the same method that all the CSST manufacturers used when they figured out their spin to make everybody believe that CSST was magic . Can you tell me why you can run smaller sized CSST to an appliance / appurtenance when in fact CSST has a greater pressure drop (" wc) per foot than Iron pipe ?   Not really defending what Snowmelt said but pointing out that there are other methods that all may not be aware of  and that if there is something some may learn from it should not be discouraged  .   Just my thought on gas pipe , as for the Navien references at every turn I ask this , George , are you trying to get a job with Navien ?

Do the math

@ June 10, 2014 6:46 AM in Plumber

and if you require help with the math hire someone who can .  A room by room heat loss is the first step to determine equipment size, tube spacing , supply water temps . 
Use a product like this on the upper floor ,   http://www.smithsenvironmental.com/ES_HeatEdge4cBro_SM_4.pdf and size it for using 120* or less but if you need to go as high as 140* with a 20* Delta T .  Panel rads with TRVs is a better option in my opinion . These can be piped to a manifold and all rooms will have same comfort level .
  depending on the number of zones you want or require will determine whether you need a buffer tank or not to eliminate short cycling of the boiler or you could use a mod / con that has mass for this , HTP Pioneer is a good choice .  Will you make domestic hot water with this boiler also is another question . 

Hydronic

@ June 9, 2014 8:02 PM in hydronic or forced air heat

Have a room by room heat loss done . Use the water heater as your source for space heating also  and put a properly sized ductless split for ac . More details would be good like is the upper level open to below ?  What are the R values of the walls , roof , how many , what type , what size windows and doors . Can you draw a floor plan showing these things for us ?

Violence

@ June 8, 2014 11:28 AM in 1" vs 3/4" baseboards

or turbulent flow is what you want for thermal transfer In a baseboard application .  The fluid moving slower will more often than not just aggravate an already poorly performing piece or pieces of baseboard . By increasing the pipe size and keeping flow the same you will create laminar flow thus impeding heat transfer .  Instead of entertaining the thought of changing baseboard type and size I suggest using a Delta T pump . In this way you can insure optimal heat transfer at all conditions , indoor and out . The very middle parts of your system will always have the average temp , beginning will be just above average and the farthest parts will be just below average . Now all that is left is room by room sizing of the baseboards at those temps and you're done . Math is awesome !

Zone valves

@ June 5, 2014 10:50 PM in Outrageous Banging

how many and what type of circulator is moving your fluid ?   Please try to tell us if this happens when all zones are opened or if only when some are open and some closed .  Did this happen before and got louder and worse and why did you add a zone ?  Your piping may be strapped and supported poorly where you can or cannot see , couple this with a single speed pump that is just right or oversized and when those valves close and the velocity changes in the open zones it can make a hell of a racket .  Bad support and strapping alone can cause this issue but if it got louder when you expanded the number of zones and added a valve makes it suspect .  A Delta T pump can lessen or eliminate this problem then if it persists continue searching . The new pump is a nice addition anyway and will improve the wire to water efficiency and fuel consumption somewhat .  You can only fix one thing at a time as it seems you already know .

OOOsa

@ June 5, 2014 4:50 PM in Online design services

Relax Stenty .  Where are you located ?  I guess you found one of those guys that knows it all and therefore will never learn anything .  Probably has been to 50+ product based trainings but has no clue why things do what they do .  Those who know how should always work for those who know why , unfortunately that is no longer the case .

Is this

@ June 5, 2014 7:03 AM in Outrageous Banging

a new install done recently or did this problem just appear ?  A bit of background would be helpful to help

forgot reading that

@ June 5, 2014 7:00 AM in Old Radiators Repipe

but I was speaking of utilizing the existing piping and having all within the envelope . Did not think anyone would even think I meant to not use glycol in any piping on the exterior . 

 " Flushing them can probably be accomplished from the individual S & R piping in the basement when you cut them free and probably would be a good idea , then you'd be cleaning the piping to remain and the rads ."

Keep it simple

@ June 5, 2014 6:56 AM in I ran across the system ......

Swap out the old monster for a good quality 85% CI boiler and call it a day . # 2 option , swap it out with a mod con that can easily pipe to the existing piping with out requiring additional or higher head pumps for restrictive HX and P / S piping. This unit should have ODR so when and if that Sarcotherm goes you will still keep that capability . HTP Pioneer comes to mind .

30%

@ June 4, 2014 8:33 PM in Old Radiators Repipe

should be fine if you must use glycol .  Use bypasses at the TRV so the water will be right there when needed .  Don't know how poorly the home's thermal envelope is but you may be able to use no glycol on a constant circulation situation .

One

@ June 4, 2014 7:27 AM in troubleshoot constant call for heat

charges for the amount of time required to do the job properly .  The Uponor zone control module I mentioned earlier will let you know that an actuator is opening with a red flashing light until the time when the valve fully opens and the light is solid .

3/4

@ June 4, 2014 7:10 AM in Old Radiators Repipe

S & R piping is not your best option for this system .   This piping should be large enough to get supply water to all the radiators .   Is there a way to employ a manifold near the boiler and run 1/2" home runs to each radiator ? If not I would lean toward 1 1/4 " or larger S & R piping to insure adequate flow .  I see that you have TRVs in the system also , you'll be able to use a nice ECM circ like a Taco bumble bee or other for constant circulation with a 30-40 * Delta T .  If you use the smaller pipe you will not be able to use an efficient circulator and will more than likely be stuck with a fixed speed pump which will not be conducive to comfort or heat transfer . Larger S & R , TRVs , ECM pump will allow all parts of the system to run at their most efficient , will provide better comfort and lower fuel bills . Outdoor reset may also be an option .
  Flushing them can probably be accomplished from the individual S & R piping in the basement when you cut them free and probably would be a good idea , then you'd be cleaning the piping to remain and the rads .

Hate

@ June 3, 2014 7:07 AM in Time to pull the trigger

when that happens Gordy . Happens more often now as we move past P/S pipng .

Chevy vs Caddy

@ May 30, 2014 7:46 AM in Utica vs Lochinvar

Kind of a general statement and kind of funny . I see a lot more 50's era chevys than Caddy .  What do you think of Dunkirk Boilers  , right up there with Lochinvar ?   That is a trick question , both Dunkirk Helix and Utica SSC mod con boilers are produced by ECR International and both are very good units with a superior heat exchanger design .  They are in fact the same boiler . Chevy vs Caddy < furnace vs boiler

NICE

@ May 30, 2014 7:08 AM in Joe the Toe, overloaded!

let me guess . It also has a mod con in an attempt to be efficient .  Please let us know what you find Harvey .

Should be

@ May 29, 2014 8:33 PM in Heat load calc( to pay, or not to pay)

are scary words SWEI .  Everyone that performs any job should be capable . But if that actually was the case we all would not have made thousand of comments and offered so much help to those that weren't even aware that they should be wary .

Versa Flame

@ May 29, 2014 8:28 PM in Time for an upgrade/retrofit

would cost about the same as the other units being discussed . The lack of internet availability most would consider a good thing , HTP does frown upon other than qualified persons installing , but you can find it online . Pioneer is about 1/2 the cost of the units discussed .  Standby losses are < 1/2* per hour due to 2-3" blown foam insulation . How well is the tank on the others insulated ? A small Gas usage keeping this unit heated based on the math would require 1 therm of NG every 15 days if default 7* diff is used . Hardly a concern .  Boiler , water heater , air and dirt separator outdoor reset , low maintenance or less maintenance , killer support as others here can attest , ease of installation .  Just sayin , it hangs right in there with the others and very soon mass and storage will be the big story .  WM 97 and ECO are relatively new units and I suspect will have similar problems to the ULTRA , 12 years young and on it's third series (not by coincidence but out of necessity) , TT which in my opinion is light years better than anything WM is just keeping up with the Jones's with the combi unit that a minimum of 2 other manufacturers recently marketed , gotta compete ya know .
  Just thought you and others might like the ease , quality and cost . 

Listen to ZMan

@ May 29, 2014 7:37 AM in Heat load calc( to pay, or not to pay)

The blower door numbers will tell the story . You will really have to be on top of insulators , and all the trades to insure the modeled tightness .  Can give references for the ONLY guy that knows about Reynolds numbers and designing proper loop fields in Central New Jersey , and trust me there is only ONE .  We have fixed many peoples short fields , bad calcs .  Remember also when choosing the equipment that the pump(s) which move the source  side fluid are not included in the COP number any longer and have not been for a couple years . Have seen many a disappointed consumer when they get the electric bill due to this . Watch out also for the point where a system may drop below COP of 4 . I have seen this all too often also .  I have seen it so poorly designed that we had to shut the HP down at 36* and allow the boiler to take over or else have excessive electric bills . If you are in Jersey you can contact me for the name of the driller , this guy only does it right .    In the end though that ACH number becomes HUGE
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