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Rich

Rich

Joined on May 27, 2011

Last Post on April 23, 2014

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Can you say

@ October 16, 2013 10:44 PM in gpm

Snow melt using a Bumble Bee Circ . 42 watts to melt snow ? If you can keep the head pressure in the S&R section below 4 ft you can use the Bumble Bee for this system and keep the Delta T wherever you want it .

I See

@ October 16, 2013 10:32 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

you have Ht Products as something that is available to you . Look at their combined heat and hot water tab and see if the Versa Flame might not fit your needs . It is a high mass (55gal) mod con boiler that does not require primary / secondary (1 pump) , I would switch out the 87 watt pump you have there and install a Taco Bumble Bee (HEC-2) . This unit also has a flat plate heat exchanger that employs a pump on the boiler side to heat DHW . Not as expensive as many of the options being discussed and you're only gonna be adding about 22 watts to your consumption . Due to the high mass you can program it so that it fires minimally conserving your fuel also .  tell me what ya think  

How Many

@ October 13, 2013 7:46 PM in Different take on tankless vs buffered

zones of heat and what is the smallest zone on design day ?  Really must have this to further discussion .  You can get more DHW using a storage type tank than with a tankless . 3 way diverting  valves in tankless combi are problematic . I have changed no less than 7 of them in 18 months (Navien) . That what you want ?

Sensibility

@ October 13, 2013 5:04 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heating

After much research on your part I would guess you decided to go with radiant heating for comfort and efficiency . Correct me if I am mistaken .  You did some research on the internet and found Ultra Fin and the marketing and the promise of a more economical install and first cost caught your attention . Welcome to the wortd of marketing or as I like to call it , SPIN.. Our industry is full of it , everyone on The Wall can verify this .  Think about this , water can and does carry 3,470 x more heat than an equivalent unit of air . You will be depending on heating a huge mass of air that does not hold heat well before you will feel a damn thing . To put it in size terms , your home is 6000 sq feet , all radiant , 4 inch air space acting as your heating medium , all that air must be heated before any meaningful heat transfer can take place . You are in essence heating an 82.5 sq ft room that does not exist all the time and this room must satisfy before any of the real rooms get any heat that you will perceive . Sound efficient to you ?   That air space will also cool very rapidly after the thermostat satisfies and it will start all over again . It will require water temps that are not conducive to condensing equipment so you will lose that efficiency factor also .  It is just all around not a good idea in my opinion and I am not alone

Mike

@ October 13, 2013 4:44 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heating

I contacted you privately . If you wish please contact me with the information I sent you by phone or email .  I am in Jersey and can possibly assist you

Mike

@ October 13, 2013 4:00 PM in Ultra fin Radiant heating

Where in NY are you ?   You could have this designed by someone and then find a competent installer in your area .  You said The fine people at Ultra Fin designed a system for you . May I ask if they performed a room by room heat loss of the property ? If they did not they have no idea what to design unless you sent them ALL the INFORMATION REQUIRED to perform the heat loss calculations .

I beleive

@ October 12, 2013 9:38 PM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

the problem may be with documentation of the system gentlemen . Canada had the same problems with bad design that we have and at present all jobs must be engineered / designed / approved and I mean if you install a different circ than what is on the plan , YOU FAIL , Period . Not sure this is what is happening but Canada embraces innovation as long as it can be shown to be sufficient . there must be some issue with the install .

What

@ October 12, 2013 9:08 PM in A flow problem

could the total system flow be at design ?  How many BTU is the entire load of the building ?  

it looks

@ October 12, 2013 10:29 AM in A flow problem

like the sensor for the I Series is on the zone valve header Bob .  Nathan  You have given us the numbers for one manifold , what are the GPM requirements for the others along with the one you have told us about ?  That 008 VDT will only pump in the mid to high 7 GPM range at 10.? feet of head . If your requirements for the whole system exceed those GPM for all manifolds you will need to increase the pump size .  I do not believe that you will have the control over Delta T that you were hoping to accomplish in any case with only the single circulator .  

Nathan ,

@ October 12, 2013 9:49 AM in A flow problem

This pump must be located within the mixed temp portion of the piping arrangement , it seems as though none of these manifolds /loops will be receiving even a fraction of the heated water they require . You also must install some means of purging the air from this system .  If these zone valves all have a manifold at the other end of them with multiple loops you better be sure that what you described to us is in fact the greatest head pressure in the system and remember to add all GPM rates . When multiple manifolds are served by a single circ the head losses for all should be pretty close to each other , I am not certain that the Deltas will be as tightly controlled as I am sure you had wished either . Again , start out with purge set up and relocating that pump between the Zone valves and the I Series .  After performing these things let us know how it is responding then .

Nathan

@ October 12, 2013 7:39 AM in A flow problem

When you said you set pump to full speed , what do you mean ?  Check all your values again also  .

Bob

@ October 12, 2013 7:35 AM in A flow problem

I can certainly see your reasoning , explained in that way .  I have been doing this when it makes sense for quite awhile and have not encountered the problem you anticipate yet .  I also use the smallest I Series possible without making head losses too great for pump to deal with and let the Delta T pump do its' job , the pump will be dealing with Delta T's that are always changing regardless of mixing method or where it is done . Many are using the I Series within injection loops with great success , Taco also supports this use . Should we never use a Delta T circ there either ?  The supply temp should not change that much if at all during a call for heat and it should not be and is not an issue thus far on my systems . Using a  device that is smaller than the piping it will be connected to is not an issue either and in fact is desirable , you lessen the amount of water that it has to regulate allowing it to achieve the proper temperature faster . As long as you don't go with a Cv that is too low .  Maybe this makes sense to yourself and Carl , hope it does .      

CIBB

@ October 11, 2013 8:38 PM in Looking for a decent boiler w/ indirect

If you are intent on using a mod con boiler make sure you put install much more baseboard then you require . If you install to match the load you will have to run temps that are too high for your efficient boiler to be efficient . It will operate at about 86 - 88% . That would be a shame and a waste of your money .   Also listen to Ironman . Better you don't allow your friend to do this or you may not be friends for long , the fact he is hesitant to recommend speaks volumes . Remember  "Skilled labor aint cheap and cheap labor aint skilled "

Ironman

@ October 11, 2013 8:30 PM in A flow problem

Could you clarify what you were trying to say in that comment ?  The I series regulates temp and will flow whatever the circ pulls through it .

Chazbo

@ October 11, 2013 7:36 AM in The best pipe dope.

Dope isn't messy my friend , installers are .  Some very interesting comments from years past on this thread . I do not work for any supplier or manufacturer and am an installer like all here.  If leaks and neatness are what count and money is not an issue or your main concern you should be using an anaroebic sealant like  Permabond LH050 . In the hands of a mechanic it is a fine tool. Hey , even the gas company guys who only know meter sets and hookups don't get leaks with it , there's a reason the gas companies use it .  It is also easier to remove later if necessary

Water Heaters

@ October 11, 2013 7:26 AM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

There are a few manufactured that are approved for space heating . AO Smith vertex is 1 that jumps to minds . 76000 BTUh , HX and 2 pumps . Probably the least expensive , unintensive labor option . Then you will have an approved unit made to do both jobs .  You sound very self reliant which is a good thing , it is too bad that Johnny Government always has to retard innovation and alternate methods . Of course there are other than AO Smith that is just the first unit that I think of .

Nathan

@ October 11, 2013 7:12 AM in A flow problem

Do you have a picture of the near boiler piping for us ?  What piping arrangement is this , what type boiler ? Where is the circulator located in the system ?

Vertical

@ October 10, 2013 8:07 AM in Replacing old style expansion tank

air elimination devices can be found through Caleffi and Spirovent .  Plug the fitting that the air vent is presently in and also the supply tee at top then add the new unit above your cold water inlet and pipe to the new tank out of a second tee that you will locate between the new eliminator and cold water .  Pretty easy  

Please share

@ October 10, 2013 6:48 AM in code man says my DHW tank has to go as a heat source What now?

with us WHY the Code official states that it must go . There is a possibility that with some documentation and design on paper by a qualified person it may not have to . Codes and documentation in Canada are very technical .

http://www.healthyheating.com/Do-I-need-an-engineer.htm#.UlaEor7D_5o

Ultra Fin

@ October 8, 2013 5:37 PM in forced air to hot water

is not the way to go . Please tell me the exact situation you are looking at and how you intend to install the Ultra Fin and maybe we can tell you about better alternatives .

Ultra Fin

@ October 7, 2013 9:55 PM in forced air to hot water

 Do not use it , you will be making a HUGE mistake .  Suspended tube systems are for interior areas that need very little heat ,SOMETIMES.   The idea of Buderus Panel rads with TRVs is a good one , why not use them everywhere ? Only the areas that require heat will get it , you will be extensively zoned without wires , and you will save a ton of fuel money .  I would run them all as homeruns from a central manifold and use a variable speed ECM circ capable of handling the volume and pressure required if they are all calling at once , unlikely . As far as boilers go , there are many good ones out there . If you want to use a condensing boiler you will have to upsize the Panel rads a bit to insure the High efficiency boiler is getting low enough return water temps for you to receive the rated efficiencies for a good portion of time every year . I would be inclined if budget is a constraint to go with an 85% boiler , a 3 way Taco I series mixing valve with outdoor reset and boiler protection and sit back and enjoy the comfort and savings . Just my .02 .

Follow

@ October 2, 2013 7:19 AM in Converting from Oil to HE Gas - WM unit recommendation

Swei's advice and have the heat loss done .  These contractors may have been referred by friends but that does not make them the guy to use . Since none did a heat loss that has been confirmed . 
   Of the units mentioned I could only recommend the WM97 . Don't much care for either of the others .  Being as you only have one zone you really want to make sure you get the smallest boiler capable of heating your load at design conditions and also one that will modulate down really low . Again , Swei's recommendation is good
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