Joined on November 26, 2011
Last Post on December 4, 2013
@ December 4, 2013 7:27 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingwhat size boiler and what brand/size indirect did you have before?
@ December 4, 2013 4:53 PM in BTU Meterare the only way to do this fairly IMO. Just like electrical submeters we see in commercial buildings, it becomes part of the lease terms.
@ December 4, 2013 12:54 PM in Lochinvar Knight - single pump, 3 zone systembut I overlooked the fact that you had two different types of emitters. Run the numbers and make sure they can peacefully coexist.
@ December 4, 2013 12:50 PM in BTU Meterwill work as long as every metered branch has the same ∆T. I'm skeptical that would actually happen, even with ∆T pumps all around.
@ December 3, 2013 8:46 PM in Lochinvar Knight - single pump, 3 zone systemI've seen houses like that running design temps of 120ºF through plates and 90ºF for a slab (plus or minus five on all.) With proper emitter design you could actually series pipe the floors.
@ December 3, 2013 7:41 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpTheir low head loss allows greater flexibility in system design, even to the point of moderate knuckleheading. They also save on pumping costs, tolerate hard water somewhat better, and seem to need less frequent maintenance.
Pioneered by Triangle Tube about a decade ago, they are now available from many boiler manufacturers (including Lochinvar.)
@ December 3, 2013 7:04 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpit pretty much mandatory with the high head loss of most mod/cons. It allows you to run a different ∆T on the boiler and the emitters (particularly helpful with radiant floors.)
It also reduces the chance of a clueless installer killing the boiler. Combine that with lawyers and you see where significant portions of installation manuals originate.
@ December 3, 2013 6:54 PM in Lochinvar Knight - single pump, 3 zone systemIs it just two temps? If so, I'd probably suggest a Viessmann 200W B2HA. Its onboard controls will handle the external mixing valve (and it has even better turndown than the Lochinvar.) It will require primary/secondary piping in the size you are looking at, but the savings on external gadgets can be significant.
@ December 3, 2013 6:48 PM in Thermostat or notthe Chinese manufacturers have been aggressively cheapening these things for the past decade or so.
Try to find one with seven fins (most have five) and look out for cheesy feet or wheels.
@ December 3, 2013 6:45 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpIf you read carefully, you will see that direct pumping is approved.
No need for a bypass valve if you use a ∆P circ.
Taco claims a Bumble Bee will work even better. I can see circumstances where it might produce lower return temps, but but I haven't tried one.
Still need to do a head loss, but the majority of residential jobs will work with that curve.
@ December 3, 2013 3:03 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpand drop the primary-secondary, pump it straight through the HX. One pump for the whole system.
@ December 3, 2013 2:58 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpAre available on the larger (Magna, Stratos, Viridian) models but not on the "residential" models. Again, I REALLY wish we had an option for this, along with some smaller ECM circs (all of which have curves roughly equivalent to that of a 008.)
The internal controls of a ∆P pump will not play nice with a modulating boiler. The internal controls on a ∆T pump should work, but we've seen enough problems reported here that I hesitate to recommend them (plus, the 008 curve matches quite poorly with a low resistance HX.)
@ December 3, 2013 2:17 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpon the firetube HX is essentially zero. Looking at the 35ºF chart, I see 0.37 ft of head at 5 GPM. I sincerely doubt the entire circuit will exceed 1 ft. Turndown on those VVF pumps is 300:1 according to Taco, but the 006 is the smallest cast iron model you can buy. They do offer a 003 VVF in bronze or stainless, but no unions as far as I know, so replacing them in the field gets tough.
@ December 3, 2013 2:11 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpGiven that the WHL has a 0-10V output for the boiler pump, I'd recommend the VVF even though it's not an ECM. I hope we see some options over here soon -- direct control of the pump speed by the boiler's internal controls is by far the best arrangement.
I try to minimize or even eliminate zoning wherever practical. Crank your thermostats all the way up (really, like 90ºF) and then spend some time dialing in your reset curve and balancing flow throughout the system. After that's done (which could take several weeks; be patient) set the stats 2-3ºF above the desired room temp and they will act as high limit controls.
@ December 3, 2013 1:58 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helptry the Taco Zone Sentry. They use a ball valve design and only need 2VA.
If you have to use zone pumps, try the ecocirc e-series.
@ December 3, 2013 1:42 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpa WHL-085 with a Taco 006-VVF4 pump.
@ December 3, 2013 1:40 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpGet rid of these:
80% caloric deration for NG resulting in 64kBTU And 95% boiler efficiency resulting in ~68k BTU
60% caloric deration for LP resulting in 86kBTU (so you are saying it shouldn't be there?) And 95% boiler efficiency resulting in ~90kBTU
And use the DOE Output numbers from the manufacturer together with the calculated heat loss.
What interior temp are you using for the basement? Does it reflect the intended occupancy (or lack thereof) for the basement? Is your ground temp correct?
@ December 3, 2013 12:29 PM in Putting system together - pump selection helpLook at the DOE output ratings for each model. WHL-085 puts out 79,000 BTU/hr. There is no derating for LPG. At one point your heat loss was 52k?
Remember that heat loss calculations already include a fudge factor (quite a bit larger than most would imagine based on my experience.)
@ December 3, 2013 10:47 AM in Putting system together - pump selection helplook for a Taco VVF pump, which can accept the 0-10V control signal from the WHN.
Speaking of which, I missed the part where a 155k boiler was a good idea for a heat loss of "52k BTU or 67k." If it were my house, I'd probably take another look at the heat loss and see if I could make a WHN-055 work. Certainly no larger than a WHN-085 for that.
@ December 2, 2013 7:25 PM in Thoughts on dense packing plaster walls?when done by a properly trained applicator, the results can border on amazing.
@ December 2, 2013 11:14 AM in BTU MeterCheck out http://www.badgermeter.com/Industrial/Impeller-Products/Sensors/380-Series-Btu-System.htm for small BTU meters. http://www.veris.com/Category/Flow/Impeller-spcMeters/Tee-spcMeter,-spcSystem-spcBTU.aspx has pricing.
@ December 2, 2013 1:50 AM in want feedback piping WOOD boiler gas mod/con backup via reverse indirect BUFFER tanka modern wood stove (or two) is cheap by comparison
But when it's done right, a wood gasifier paired with sufficient storage is wonderful. It doesn't have to be complicated, either -- as the Garn owners like to remind us.