Joined on November 26, 2011
Last Post on March 11, 2014
@ March 11, 2014 3:28 PM in Boiler Room Insulationbut we need more information. Start a new thread with an appropriate title and you'll get more eyeballs on it.
@ March 11, 2014 9:38 AM in Problems with Spray Foam InsulationAirKrete is very "airy" -- sort of like dried shaving cream. If it's not covered by sheet goods or siding, a slight bump can easily crush or carve it. OTOH, it tolerates ridiculously high temperatures (think foamed refractory mortar.) I'd love to try it for filling around a chimney liner, or even an old boiler jacket.
@ March 10, 2014 6:03 PM in Legionnaire's found in heating systemI read that the same way.
If it were in a closed heating system the question of "how did he manage to inhale it" would come first, followed shortly by "run the system at 160ºF for an hour" to fix it.
@ March 10, 2014 5:56 PM in Boiler efficiency cycling vs continuous runis definitely higher when running longer cycles. Also less thermal stress on the block, the pipes, the flue, etc. We really do need some two-stage steam boiler options in residential sizes.
System efficiency is probably worthy of a debate. Given how fast steam can heat a space, with a leaky enough building I can see setbacks making sense. IIRC Terry T has mentioned this specifically with regard to intermittently-occupied classrooms and churches.
A mod/con running on ODR is a different matter altogether. Lower modulation rates increase combustion efficiency and the ability to recover temps is far less given the small ∆T between the supply temp and the indoor air temp. The savings we see when properly implemented are so dramatic that the setback argument quickly becomes uninteresting.
@ March 10, 2014 1:47 PM in indirect aqua stat?if you want a display, it will cost a bit more. The point of having a sensor wired to the control is that it can far better anticipate demand.
@ March 10, 2014 1:26 PM in indirect aqua stat?the 420 only supports a contact closure for DHW demand and not a tank temp sensor. Too bad.
@ March 9, 2014 1:28 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! HelpAt least 95% of the boilers we see are overpumped. While I understand the "lawyers made us do it" mentality used for installation manuals, it's unfortunate that in order to maximize efficiency on a mod/con, you actually have to read between the lines.
I'm still concerned that your boiler is oversized, but that's a different conversation.
@ March 9, 2014 1:03 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! HelpTriangle Tube's training classes are one of the better deals in the business IMO. You pay a couple dollars for the class, but they spend more than that on lodging and meals while you are there.
@ March 9, 2014 11:57 AM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! Helpshow both options (see p. 21 & 22 in the PTS IOM.) Direct piping/pumping is covered in more depth during their training classes, but requires proper pump sizing (which is unfortunately more than one can expect from the average installer.)
@ March 9, 2014 11:16 AM in Rinnai RH180 or 100 Gallon Atmospheric?hard to beat those recovery rates. I've done a couple of commercial jobs pairing a 399k mod/con with a SMART 120 which have worked out quite well. Not fun moving those monsters, maybe dual 80's would be worth a try...
@ March 8, 2014 9:17 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! HelpIf I were starting from scratch, I would specify a 006, but be prepared to swap that for a 005 if it proved necessary (translation: if boiler tripped off on high ∆T.) If I did not have either of those on the shelf, a 007 would be a far better choice than a 0011 (and certainly useable until I had the correct circ in hand.)
@ March 8, 2014 6:23 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! HelpThere's a bunch of math, but http://www.amtrol.com/support/extrol_com_sizing.html makes it easy.
@ March 8, 2014 6:20 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! HelpI make a spreadsheet listing each room with it's heat loss and installed emitter capacity. From that, we can determine what the required system water temp is and also if there are rooms which are likely to become too cold or too hot when the system is running on ODR. For series baseboard, a bit of math is added to the spreadsheet to allow for temp drop along the loop. It's unfortunately rare to find those sized correctly, at least in our neck of the woods. This is a key component of our initial analysis, and from it come recommendations which are reviewed with the owner(s) before a contract is even offered, much less signed. If recommended repairs or improvements are declined, waiver language gets added to the contract to protect us.
@ March 8, 2014 5:59 PM in Sizing a boiler in Watertown, MA10k minimum firing rate - another one for the list. Haven't installed any of those, but am always interested to learn.
I am a big fan both of the Triangle Tube boilers and of the company. Unfortunately, the minimum firing rate on the PTS60 is 16k. This is an artifact of a design decision TT made years ago: Utilize a single control module running the same firmware on all sizes of their boiler -- making it that much easier for installers and distributors to stock spares (an admirable thing in my book.)
@ March 8, 2014 4:48 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! Helprequires more information, or we will just be guessing. I'll repeat myself:
What is your calculated design day heat loss?
How many feet of what type of baseboard in each loop? How are they
piped? Do the size of emitters in each room have any relation to the room's
@ March 8, 2014 4:43 PM in Hydrotherm Celtic and a 15-42calling Grundfos to see if they still have parts? Someone here ought to have a "clueful" contact on the inside.
@ March 8, 2014 4:36 PM in Sizing a boiler in Watertown, MASince your load is so small, you are basically looking at a choice between the smallest mod/con boilers available from a number of manufacturers. My current working hypothesis is that the design day heat loss should not be less than three time the boiler's minimum firing rate. Most currently available mod/con boilers have a minimum firing rate of 16-17k on their smallest model. Here are some of the lowest minimum modulation rates [in square brackets] of which I am currently aware, followed by their maximum output capacity (in parenthesis):
Viessmann 200-W B2HA 19 [11,580] (64,655)
Lochinvar WHN055 [10,450] (53,250)
Lochinvar Cadet CDN040 [8,545] (37,600)
There may be other options -- I would certainly appreciate knowing about those if someone would share them.
You can size an indirect water heater to your DHW demand -- the maximum firing rates above will come into play there.
Don't give up -- a properly sized, installed, and commissioned mod/con is a thing of beauty that will make you smile each time you walk in the door to a quiet, comfortable house. The low gas bills don't hurt either.
@ March 8, 2014 12:31 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! Helpcan get expensive when you are paying for the parts. Before you start swapping them, get the system properly designed.
What is your calculated design day heat loss?
How many feet of what type of baseboard in each loop? How are they piped? Do the emitters in each room have any relation to the room's heat loss?
@ March 8, 2014 12:15 PM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! Helpfrom the Point of No Pressure Change is what matters. The short version is that you pump away from the pressure tank. The firetube heat exchanger utilized by Triangle Tube has almost no head loss -- I've attached the curves for the 175 and 250 below.
Just because they show a curve for a 0011 doesn't mean you should actually install one. There's a funny bit of pipe detail at the upper right-hand corner of that loop I can't quite see -- is it an offset in the Z dimension with a couple of tees?
I doubt you have more than 40 feet of developed length in that primary loop. If it's 1-1/4" copper, you're pushing at least 24 GPM and 6 FPS there. Believe it or not, I'd probably use a 006 for that.
If I were starting from scratch, I'd dispense with the primary/secondary piping altogether, install two zone valves and use a single ECM smart circ.
@ March 8, 2014 11:38 AM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! HelpI see two green pumps, presumably Taco 0011's. One is on the primary loop, the other off a set of closely spaced tees, probably feeding your baseboard.
I see one red pump, presumably a Grundfos, off a second set of closely spaced tees. What does it serve?
If all you have is one zone, it's quite likely you don't need primary/secondary piping at all. How much pipe head does that zone have? How much fin tube of what type? Was a heat loss calculation done?
@ March 8, 2014 11:28 AM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! Helpdoes that feed the indirect? If so, try powering it down and valving off both lines.
0011 is an unusual selection for a primary loop -- what size is the boiler?
@ March 8, 2014 10:58 AM in Pumping away ? I must have something messed up! Helpis 69.3 feet of head. The 0011 maxes out around 31 feet. Unless you somehow managed to pipe the two pumps in series, and even that is dicey, I'd be looking at a leaking indirect or tankless coil.