Heating Help

Feeder

@ February 20, 2012 10:07 PM in Overzealous Water Feeder

I'll give you a call this week...thanks for the input :)

Nick

LWCO Annual Maintenance

@ February 20, 2012 10:05 PM in Overzealous Water Feeder

Probably never, based on the previous owners level of maintenance. I've owned the house for 18 months, haven't done it yet...now I know to do it :)

How long should I expect this to take? A couple hours?

Overzealous Water Feeder

@ February 16, 2012 4:06 PM in Overzealous Water Feeder

Sometimes when I do my weekly flush of the LWCO, my automatic water feeder will not stop feeding.

Usually, it runs for 10 seconds or so and shuts off (which leaves the water to about the right level). But ever 3-4 times or so, it will keep running and let the water run to way over the top of the sight glass, and then shut off. I will then empty the water out of the mud leg so the feeder doesn't turn on again. This has been annoying but never bothered me enough to post about it.

Last night, my one of my pilot lights when out due to a bad thermocouple. I replaced it, and decided to flush the LWCO at that point. This time, the water feeder would not stop....it kept feeding even after it hit the top of the sight glass. I had to disconnect the electrical feeds going to the water feeder. I reconnected them and it kept feeding. So I kept playing with it, and in my frustration, I decided to smack the left side of the LWCO where the wires connect...and the automatic water feeder stopped feeding.

I then flushed the mud leg down so the water got to a normal level, and fired the boiler. as was well and good afterwards.

Any idea why this is happening? Is there something I need to clean in the LWCO to prevent this from happening again? I have attached a picture of my LWCO and water feeder.

My Two Cents

@ February 14, 2012 2:53 PM in Dead men rolling in grave

As a fellow GPer, I've had the opportunity to discover the wonders of steam heating. I've been reading this thread and had a few thoughts, even though I'm a homeowner - I like to tinker, and have learned quite a bit from this forum, the books, and some trial and error. I'm no expert, but here are my two cents from one homeowner to another.

1. Remember Dan's Gospel - Pressure goes from high to low (I'm paraphrasing). This means that if you have steam in your return lines, there is no pressure differential. This means the steam won't want to move, so the air is stuck in your rads.

2. Buy a infrared thermometer. Since you're a GPer, you can borrow my Fluke one as long as you return it :) I loaned mine to MotownSteamer about a month ago. Or you can buy one from home depot for like $30-40. This will help you gauge a) if you have steam in your return lines, and b) bad traps.

3. If you're thrifty, you can replace traps cheaper than you think. You don't have to buy new trap bodies unless they're destroyed. I bought new caps & discs on ebay for anywhere from 55-80% off the cost of new. They work great, I've replaced 27 of the 29 traps in my house, and I have some spares now too. Once I replaced my traps, I have better heat distribution in the whole house, since steam in the return lines was keeping air from getting out of some radiators, and in some cases the traps were clogged up with crud. Previously, I would have to crank up the pressure to get the rads fully hot. Now they heat evenly in most areas of the house.

4. The near boiler piping should be fixed obviously at some point, but mine is sort of jacked and I've fixed a bunch of other stuff (venting, traps, etc.) and still improved the performance of my system without fixing my massive bullhead tee.

/me steps off the soapbox he shouldn't be on...

Best,

Nick

Painting

@ February 14, 2012 11:03 AM in Radiator Paint Question

I recalled reading about this a while ago, here are some useful links:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/6704/Radiator%20Paint%20Effect%20With%20Thermograph.pdf

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/158/Radiators/1265/Does-the-Color-of-a-Radiator-Matter

Yes - 2 Pipe

@ February 13, 2012 1:51 PM in TRV Newbie Question

Correct - this is a two pipe system. Dunham Vapor.

I have experimented with partially closing some of the valves, this helped a little - but the valves are so old that I probably need to replace them. They leak, and leak even more when partially closed. You can hear the air/steam "popping" out - and then once the burner shuts off, you can hear the air being sucked back in through the valve. Sounds like a mini kazoo...lol.

I figure I can replace them with a plain old valve, or I can go with a TRV for better temperature control. However, since I've never bought TRVs - I want to see if this is what I should be buying - or if there is another product that is better suited for this application.

Better...but not where I want to be quite yet :)

@ February 13, 2012 1:47 PM in Crossover Trap Removal - Tight Space

The system seems to be running "better" - I get more heat out of the radiators on the first floor (they are in-wall convector fin tubes.) However, they also stop heating quicker than the cast iron rads on the second floor. They are still noisy, the clinking expansion noises...I've looked under all of them - not sure where I could put the plastic milk bottle pieces to stop this.

Still, there is one in-wall rad that does not heat up fully unlike the others. My hypothesis was that if I fixed the crossover, that this radiator would heat better, but I was wrong.

I've vacuumed up all the caked-on dust (probably 80 years worth, it was pretty gross) I could from the bottom of the rads in the walls, however I'm pretty sure I'll have to cut open the painted-over grilles on the top and stick a long hose down to vacuum up the dust from the top of the fin tubes.

I used to have an 8-9 degree temperature differential between the first floor and second floor, but now it is less...more like 4 degrees. I used to have the t-stat set to 60 or 62 on the first floor, and it would be 70 degrees on the second floor. Now I have the first floor set to 66, and it is usually around 70 on the second floor. My guess is that the attic was insulated at some point in the last 20 years, so that helped retain heat on the second floor - but the first floor still has mostly original plaster everywhere with no evidence of injection insulation.

I am experimenting with closing the valves on the second floor partially, so they don't overheat the second floor. I also changed the cycle time to 2 per hour on my honeywell touchscreen t-stat.

I need to replace a large portion of the valves on the first and second floors, as many of them leak or hiss. I posted the other day, thinking about getting TRVs instead of plain old valves for better temperature control.

TRV Newbie Question

@ February 10, 2012 2:54 PM in TRV Newbie Question

So I have a room that gets too hot, it's two floors directly above the boiler, so steam gets there first. I've replaced the trap, it just gets hot all the way across.

I've been kicking around the idea of getting a TRV for the room, I want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like you need two parts - the valve, and the non-electric actuator. Would this be the right combination?

http://www.statesupply.com/valves-and-controls/honeywell/radiator-valves/hn1570
and
http://www.statesupply.com/hn1500

This is the kind where you actually set the temperature (68,70,72), and not just a relative number (e.g. 1,2,3) right?

This radiator is not fully enclosed, it just has a top/rear shield, so the valve I picked has the spot for the actuator to go on the side.

Any gotchas or caveats I should be aware of?

Success!

@ February 4, 2012 6:51 PM in Crossover Trap Removal - Tight Space

After a few days of PB sitting on the pipes I still couldn't disconnect that vertical run, so I got a new idea. I disconnected the unions to both traps....by doing that, I was able to move the return line. So, I slowly raised it up about an inch with a 2x4.

That let me take off that trap body I couldn't turn before, and also because it was raised now, I was able to get the cap off the second trap.

Both traps now have new caps & discs.

Crossover Trap Removal - Tight Space

@ January 31, 2012 5:34 PM in Crossover Trap Removal - Tight Space

So I'm convinced this trap is stuck shut (radiators I believe are connected to the return don't get hot, and the return line is never warm). However, it is in a really tight space.

I've tried for a week to get the cap off, but its difficult to get any leverage, due to the tight space its in, and the pipes around it.

I'm convinced I need to remove the trap body to service it - and the threads actually move. However there is a water line behind it, preventing me from turning the trap and taking it off.

Any suggestions? I'm thinking I need to remove the piping to the right of the trap and then turn the elbow that the bottom of the trap connects to...

Vacuum Vent vs. Check Valve

@ January 31, 2012 10:08 AM in Another Look at Vapor Vacuum

Dave,

Yes, I did post that pic before, but on another thread.

For the check valve - are you suggesting I install it in front of the vents on the antler? Should I get a 3/4" since that's the size of the pipe feeding the antler?

Would the check valve be sufficient instead of buying the Hoffman 76s?

Also - I checked, it doesn't look like I have a return equalizer, nor stubs where one might have been...however, the pic you posted below seems very similar to my near boiler piping...so its possible it was removed when the boiler was replaced several decades ago.

Vents

@ January 30, 2012 9:39 PM in Another Look at Vapor Vacuum

Dave,

Do you mean like this (see pic below)? I repiped this about 6 weeks ago...I guess I would just throw two or three Hoffman 76s in lieu of the Gorton #2 and the Hoffman 75 I have there now...

My code gauge has markings for vacuum, but it never moves - one way or another. The Wika 0-3 PSI goes into the negative during the condensing phase after the burner shuts off, and then goes back to (around) zero. I was thinking I should get a second, vacuum gauge and add it to my pigtail here (in addition to a vaporstat, which is also on the list of things to do.)

I will look for the return line equalizer.

How to convert...

@ January 30, 2012 11:41 AM in Another Look at Vapor Vacuum

So...assuming I wanted to convert my two-pipe Dunham Vapor system to vapor/vacuum in the future...I should:

1. Fix my leaky packless valves (see my latest post regarding repair/replace)
2. Fix all my traps (I'm about 50% of the way through this project)
3. Replace my boiler room return vents (the only ones in the house) with Hoffman 76s?
4. Add a vacuum gauge

Is it really this easy?

Repair Packless Valves

@ January 30, 2012 11:31 AM in Repair Packless Valves

I have a lot of these Dunham packless valves around the house, and since they're ~81 years old, they leak. Not a ton, but you can hear the air/steam spit out of them - especially on a longer burn. Some of the valves have a handle (first pic), some have a mushroom style knob (second pic). I believe the mushroom knob-style are packless, but I'm not 100% certain.

While it isn't causing a major issue now, there are enough of them leaking (I have counted 7 so far) that I'm sure it doesn't help with keeping steam pressure up to around where it should be. Also, I can hear it in some of the bedrooms, so it's undesirable. I would also like to experiment eventually with making the system run in a vacuum in the future, so repairing/replacing these would be important prior to doing a vacuum conversion.

My questions are....

1) Are the mushroom knob-style packless valves? They are marked Dunham, see second pic.

2) Can you repair a packless valve?

3) If not repairable, should I buy new packed or packless valves? There are 6 non-original valves, they are all packed at this point. I'm not opposed to replacing them with packless if it's better in the long run, which is my understanding that they are.

Thanks,

Nick

Probably

@ January 28, 2012 11:59 AM in Hot Returns = Bad Traps?

Darrell,

That has been my experience. Either the trap is clogged with crud, or the thermostatic disc has failed. If you don't have a trap disc handy, I would suggest cleaning it first - or at least opening it up with the system off to see if it is clogged. Ultimately it should be replaced.

See pic below of one of my traps, it was servicing an in-wall convector too. I cleaned the trap body, and put a new cap & disc on, and now it works well - return line directly below the radiator is now around 150-160 degrees F, which is about right.

Nick

Makes sense

@ January 28, 2012 10:17 AM in Should this pipe be hot?

I wasn't quite sure, because there is a similar set up in my basement bar bathroom, but no pipe coming out of the wall - the main just has a 1/2" line going into a crossover trap. I just wanted to make sure I didn't have some wide-open secret trap that was buried in the plaster ceilings in the basement room behind that wall.

That room behind that wall and one floor above is the living room, and has three in-wall convectors, and the bedroom above it has 3 cast iron tube rads.

Thanks for the feedback, I won't worry about it.

Thank you

@ January 28, 2012 10:11 AM in Trap Replacement - Oil Threads?

Yes - these are primarily Dunham 1E traps. There are a few 2Es. Funny you mention it - I've been able to get the majority of the caps off so far using the method you mentioned - one pipe wrench to counter-torque the trap, and the trap cap wrench - and hitting the cap wrench with a hammer. However, last night one of the caps wouldn't come off, and I ended up taking off the whole body and putting it in a vice in the basement. After a few taps with the hammer, and some more massaging, it came right off. Once I got the cap off - look what I found (see before and after pics). This trap was serving one of the in-wall convectors in my office.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I will try to pick up some of the never seize and/or the RTV silicone sealant. I get the feeling PTFE tape might work but the threads are so thin (only three threads wide) it would probably be easier to use something I can spread on.

Dave - I did not open up the garage ceiling yet. Haven't had the time to start a larger project like that yet...but I will :)

Steam Main

@ January 27, 2012 11:07 PM in Should this pipe be hot?

Would the steam main loop around? The main is on the left (insulated)...and stops before it hits the wall, and curves down into the wet return. Before the end, there are two takeoffs which service different radiators in sections of the house.

So - the "hot pipe" is coming out of the wall right where that arrow is labeled "hot pipe" - from the opposite side of the house (from where I took the picture, the boiler is behind me in another room) I'm puzzled...

Trap Replacement - Oil Threads?

@ January 27, 2012 8:19 PM in Trap Replacement - Oil Threads?

Since I've been replacing my trap caps and discs - I've noticed many of the caps are very difficult to remove. Since I don't plan on moving for a long time - and I presume I'll be replacing the traps again in 5-8 years, I would like to make it easier on myself the next time around.

Is it bad to LIGHTLY oil the threads and then wipe it off, before replacing the caps? I know it will make it back to the boiler if I glob it on, and then i'll have fun skimming - so I want to avoid that.

What is the common best practice for this?

Should this pipe be hot?

@ January 27, 2012 8:11 PM in Should this pipe be hot?

So, I'm about 1/3 of the way through my trap replacement project. As I've become more intimately familiar with my system, I came across a pipe that I'm not sure if it should be steam-hot or not.

It is a horizontal line coming into a vertical pipe that connects the wet return, and a dry return - there is a crossover trap between the vertical pipe and the dry (horizontal) return.

The horizontal pipe - I'm unsure of its source (it's coming out of a wall, the other side is covered), can't tell if its meant to be a drip from the steam supply lines to the radiators on that side of the house (in which case it should be hot)...or if its a dry return that shouldn't be steam-hot. It gets to 210 degrees or so.

The house was built in 1930, it's a Dunham vapor system.

Please see pictures below.

One Pipe or Two Pipe?

@ January 25, 2012 10:43 AM in new boiler does't make pressure

I have a two pipe system that built *almost* no pressure until I replaced some traps that were stuck wide open, blasting the steam into some of the return lines. Once I fixed those traps, I was able to build some pressure. I'm a homeowner, so listen to the experts here...but that's my two cents :)

Not Yet...

@ January 9, 2012 11:39 AM in Still have hammer, out of ideas...

Dave,

Haven't opened up the ceiling yet - I have had a bunch of family stuff going on this week - so it is on my to-do list for later this week or weekend :)

I am eager to fix this, as the hammer is worse with the colder temperatures...it "came back" in the other room - I can't jack up the radiator any higher so I'll have to open up the ceiling over there too.