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Joined on December 15, 2011

Last Post on April 10, 2014

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how do you heatloss: tips and tricks anyone?

@ April 10, 2014 5:03 PM in how do you heatloss: tips and tricks anyone?

Just curious how most of the professional here get their heatloss calculations done. What do you find most efficient? ie, measure and sketch floorplan and then put into software back at the office, or do you use technology in some manner to created a floorplan on site and do you heatloss off site, do you use computers or tablets and do everything onsite on the fly? I am a beginner when it comes to heatloss, so I'm curious if any experienced professional have their trade tips or tricks to seamlessly getting the math done first. As always, I just want to thank anyone that reads or responds to this. Your experiences are often my best lessons when it comes to the hydronics world. Quality hydronics is often an enigma in my part of the world.

the re-pipe will happen anyway.

@ March 25, 2014 8:07 AM in indirect question

I am repiping the near boiler piping anyway. Circ is on return, manual air vent on suction side with 5', no isolations to purge each loop, no bfp, make-up water is somewhere funny too, cushion tank without 3/4 pipe, without extol tank fitting of any sort, no air separator or line scoop, it's a two zone; zone way setup, that has a flow check that makes a massive amount of noise, and one zone is a split return with no balancing.

So the original thought from the homeowner was could I make his system more quiet… after the fact he'd asked about adding better hot water… Thats when I was curious about the indirect. But as it stands I'll probably keep that simple and utilize the existing coil like you have suggested.

Is this right?

@ March 24, 2014 7:30 AM in indirect question

I went searching the forum and found quite a few of your old post. I don't know if you changed your way of doing it, but it appears that I cannot grasps your connection setup, it seems your picture here is a little different than you'd explained it in the past.

1) Circ line (from HWT drain) -> CW inlet on Tankless coil
2) CW (city feed) -> tee's in downstream of circ line and will feed CW inlet (coil) also
3) HW outlet on tankless coil -> pipes into CW inlet on top of hot water tank.
4) HW outlet on HWT -> pipes into HW distribution for the household

?'s: > Should the cw(city) then have a check valve on it?
How would I size the pump? would I be looking at support the 5gpm this coil boosts?
I know you say 006 in many of your post but would it just be a matter of getting your piping loss and finding something to support the GPM? This isn't for myself and I don't want to have any return visits attempting to tweak things.
Triple AquaStat can then be set at 150/170 with the dif on 10?

Note: the reason I'd considered the indirect was because the boiler required a full re-pipe anyway to get rid of all the noise and air problems so I thought it was a simple solution.

Thanks for your info ice sailor

indirect question

@ March 22, 2014 10:40 AM in indirect question

The boiler is a Saturn by Granby Industries. Their literature is very poor.
I have been asked to add an indirect in replace of the coil and add air elimination to this poorly piped system. The owner wants better fuel consumption, quieter system and better hot water performance.

My big problem is around the indirect, an e-mail from the manufacturer told me don't cold start the boiler. If I keep the triple aquastat installed and maintain a system low temperature will I have much fuel savings by switching to an indirect? For a two zone series loop system with BB fin-tube would a ODR make much sense?

5 book combo

@ February 19, 2014 4:22 PM in Looking for book recommendations!

You should buy Dan's combo package of 'hot water' books. Will give you a solid base, if you need more info past those reads then John's book is fantastic... But my personal opinion is that going through Dan's books first will allow a layman to navigate John's book with much better efficiency. Just my opinion.

found it

@ February 9, 2014 11:18 AM in How, exactly does

Just found this on there I/O manual… This was the part I was curious on. I guess it has something similar to the CMOS in a PC that will 'remember' settings.

"Zone panel control applications — when there is a call for heat and power has been sent to the Alpha pump, the Alpha will remember and restart from the last duty point and hydraulic mode."

how do you get constant power?

@ February 9, 2014 8:53 AM in How, exactly does

How exactly can you give this pump constant power if you say, wish to wire it to a Switching relay? For instance you wish to use this delta P circ to supply a manifold of TRV supplied panel radiators? This way the pump works ideally with the fluctuating opening and closing of the various TRV's. But if you have no heat call or the indirect takes priority and shuts down the power to this pump, wouldn't all it's data be lost?

Sorry or do I have it all wrong? So would this particular Circ only be working in all its glory in a constant circulation style system?

temp gauge for pipe

@ January 14, 2014 8:49 AM in Manifolds

HotRod I watched one. of the YouTube videos on the manifolds... Do you have a link or manufacturer name that makes the snap on style thermometers you'd demonstrated in the video. That look sweet... I cannot find much in my area of the world so I need to source a lot of this type of thing myself. Sorry if I slightly hijacked this thread, but I figured anymore interested in manifolds would like that little temp gauges.

dwv check valve

@ January 14, 2014 8:44 AM in dwv check valve

Is there a check valve that would work for washing machine standpipe. Is there one that would be suitable for the vertical discharge portion of the standpipe? Would a spring loaded even open? Or is the horizontal portion of the trap arm the only acceptable for a check valve?

may not be to code

@ October 19, 2013 6:30 PM in Sink waste and overflow assembly?

I believe bacteria billed up in the overflow is the issue. If your job/home is being inspected a lot of European and other import products such as the one you are showing may not be a certified product. In which case the inspector may not allow you to pass plumbing inspection as long as said product is still installed.

3 series loops

@ September 24, 2013 9:04 AM in System design

Monitron II by Slant/Fin
No lwco requirement. I meant to say flow switch.
It is three series loop zones piped in parallel.

head loss

@ September 23, 2013 9:00 PM in System design

I've seen a few different theory's that are all in the same ballpark. But what do you guys recommend for estimating head loss here? Do you like the idea of length X 1.5 X .04?
Right now the three zone I'm tying into are all 3/4" and mostly buried, if I got back on location I could probably make a very good guess at home many elbows and are buried in the floors. But currently it's 3 zones that all loop the perimeters of the house; one on each level. So it's basically 120 feet perimeter tubing + some elbows and some up and downs around doorways + risers to and from the basement.
Also can I get a little nudge in the right direction for establishing 'my system curve' so I can pick the best pump for the job.

System design

@ September 23, 2013 3:50 PM in System design

I need to put a need mechanical room at the end of this week. There was a big oil spill and they just have the cement poured so in two days he'll be looking to have his electrical upgrade done (insurance company) and wants the heating to be put back with an electric boiler.
Here's the stats:
Zone 1: 18700
Zone 2: 19100
Zone 3: 20500
Total: 58400
I was going to go with zone valves, a 1" main trunk, with 1"X.75" tee's for the zone valve headers. I'll try and attach a little sketch. This is a Slant/Fin Boiler. There specs call for a bypass line, can anyone comment if that is totally necessary? If so what is the reasoning? Does the boiler heat up and turn on the circulator with a low limit is reach, and this bypass prevents the circ from pumping again 3 closed zone valves?
In my sketch I'd left out the bypass loop, and the low water cut-off, where would be the best placement for that?

indirect or direct electric resistance

@ September 21, 2013 3:36 PM in indirect or direct electric resistance

I need to replace an oil boiler w/ tankless coil. The customer is very set on going with an electric wall hung boiler for the setup, likely a Slant/Fin. Is an indirect more efficient than an electric hot water tank? His new boiler will be off electricity anyway so in short the questions is does he add another breaker to the panel and put in electric HWT or use an electric indirect?

still needs vent

@ September 9, 2013 1:13 PM in below slab floor drains

That is a 2" drain which means that there will be a vent take off required within 8' of that in some form, be it individual, wet....

not just DW systems

@ September 9, 2013 1:05 PM in Kitec Tubing and fittings?

I have seen failure on Hydronic systems here in NL, Canada. Insurance companies wont offer home insurance to anyone with the pipe in the home any more. I have only ever seen Kitec installed on one DW system ever in these parts. I have been on several systems where the hydronics had to be re-pipe before sale of a house. And I have witness many leaks on the pipe and fittings. Compression pex-al-pex, crimp pex-al-pex, cheap compression generic. So in my experience this is not a DW only problem.

in Canada..

@ September 3, 2013 5:51 PM in below slab floor drains

Up here a 3" P-Trap could be as far as 12' from its drain connection and not require a vent.


@ July 18, 2013 12:30 PM in ideas

I'm curious how some of you guys would attack this system.
Owner will want in slab for the basement, staple up under washrooms and kitchen (all tiled floors), cast iron column heaters in porches/mudroom and baseboard for all other carpet/wooden floored rooms.

Would you do seperate manifolds for each style that is supplied with its own mixing valve for the different temperatures? And then have each heater (or loop) fitted with an actuator?

Or are there some nice control / valve setups that will keep this system from becoming too complicated?

Essentially I'm trying to get some input as to how I can keep this boiler room as neat and tidy as possible.

Also when do a heatloss I have a question. Say I come up with 75K and want to add an indirect using priority control does that mean I do not have to add the BTU for the indirect to the overall heat loss when sizing the boiler?

underground piping

@ July 16, 2013 12:51 PM in underground piping

For underground piping how much cover/concrete is appropriate to place on top of an ABS dwv system? I couldn't find any specific answers. Is there an exact answer? I've seen pipes in the past gradually rise up until then are actually above the concrete (this was cast iron in some very old houses).
I'll reiterate since I'm often long winded - what's the code on covering underground horizontal dwv?

3rd tapping

@ April 28, 2013 1:35 PM in Preferred domestic recirc piping

Why is it that not many of the diagrams use the 3rd drain tapping on the water tank for the recirc line? ie. Remove drain, add tee, add drain and recirc line.
Is this a less practical way from an engineering standpoint? And how would you consider installing a recirc that doesn't involve a tempering valve?

too important not to have

@ April 28, 2013 11:26 AM in Backflow preventer with vent

Has anyone posting on this topic become AWWA certified for backflow prevention testing? These items do 'FAIL' and that is why they require annual testing forever. If there is anything feeding the system other than potable water then the BF device has to be RP (or RPZ as some have referred to them) I remember my plumbing instructor telling us about going to a house call in the '80s where the lady complain the tap water was a greenish colour. Not to mention the countless ones we hear about from the AWWA course agenda.

Also if there is a drip on the RP's vent that doesn't mean it is failed completely. There are multiple security measures put into these devices, a drip on the vent could mean the relief port opened for an acceptable reason and is in need of repair. And even if that is failing and the most downstream check is failing, it doesn't mean that the most upstream check isn't still functioning 100% and protecting the household and municipal supply from contaminations.

Heat Loss Software Preference

@ April 20, 2013 12:40 PM in Heat Loss Software Preference

I know there have been posts about this before, but the products available are always changing, updating, and even new ones are becoming available.
What free, if any, do you guys prefer and trust for doing your 'professional' heat loss calculations?
I hope some of you guys will shed some light on what you think works best and maybe even throw in a little comment.
Thanks so much for your inputs.
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