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Zman

Zman

Joined on January 19, 2012

Last Post on July 23, 2014

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Freeze protection

@ July 23, 2014 9:17 AM in Suggestions wanted

If it turns out you need freeze protection, You could have a seperate control that would turn the OWB circ back on if the water drops below 50 degrees and then off of it goes over say 70 degrees. If this was wired in parallel with the other control, it would give freeze protection without wasting as much heat or confusing the primary control into thinking the  OW boiler if firing.

Suggestion

@ July 23, 2014 8:43 AM in Suggestions wanted

The way I see it you have 2 problems.
The first problem is inadequate flow to the OWB. I agree that 9 gpm should be your target. Assuming that your indirect has fairly low resistance (not an amtrol) here is about what you will see:
Taco 007                4.4gpm
Taco 0014              6.63gpm
Taco 0013              8.34gpm
Grundfos 26-99    7.8gpm

The other problem is the piping/control arrangement.
Since the boilers are piped in series, when either is firing, it is wasting heat through the other. If you don't have glycol in the outdoor boiler, you may need this setup to prevent the outdoor boiler from freezing when on vacation and the OWB is not firing. If you don't need to keep the outdoor boiler warm using the indoor boiler, it would be pretty simple to install an aquastat and a DT/DT relay that would only allow the indoor boiler to fire if the outdoor boiler is cold. You would simultaneously turn on the indoor boiler and turn off the circ to the outdoor boiler. Problem solved...

Layout

@ July 22, 2014 11:46 AM in Tubing size, spacing, flow rate for a joist install

You will want to determine the required BTU output per square foot in each room.You will also need to know the design water temp your system is running the coldest design day.
If you use 1/2" tubing and keep the lengths around 200', you should be able to acheive your design flow rate fairly easily.

Some sort of aluminum track will be needed. Here is some good info from uponer.
http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Extranet/Files/manuals/JoistTrakHandbook_051.aspx

Heaters

@ July 21, 2014 8:00 PM in Electric Baseboard Vs Hydronic Electric Baseboards

The only advantage see is that they will more evenly and perhaps more quietly. I don't see how they can run at a lower temp as the overall wattage an size is very similar.

I know you are just looking for the answer to the question you have asked.
I would also suggest radiant cove heat for the reasons suggested above.

What is the reasoning behind the honeywell system? It looks like a major pain!

Wall..

@ July 21, 2014 5:35 PM in Radiant Heat Matrix Other Than Concrete.

Scott,
It sounds like an interesting project.
Have you considered turning a wall of the greenhouse into a solar collector by day and  radiant heater at night? Greenhouses are usually way to hot in the daytime and cool rapidly at night. If you built a wall using pex and aluminum radiant plates and paint it  black  you could store the excess energy in your tank and pump it back at night.
Carl

Insight

@ July 17, 2014 10:55 PM in Runtal towel warmer connection

This post may give you some insight http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/141860/hydronic-circulating-pump-and-TRVs

Good point...

@ July 17, 2014 7:54 AM in Constantly purging air in hydronic system

Mike makes a good point. At the end of the day, where is the air coming from?
Low system pressure is a likely one.
Is the pressure relief valve dripping?
What happens if you turn off the fill valve?
I think the tank corrosion Mike is talking about would not occur in a truly closed system with no leaks.
Carl

Improvements

@ July 17, 2014 12:51 AM in Constantly purging air in hydronic system

First off.
You need a check valve where the city water enters the system.The watts reducing valve you have is often sold with one attached.Yours does not have one.
The pressure reducing valve can be adjusted. You spin the nut under the lever. Chances are it should be in the 15# to 18# range. How high is it from the boiler to the highest radiator?
The expansion tank (yours is a bladder style) should be charged to the same pressure. You do this with a bike pump with the tank drained.
I do not hang pressure tanks below the air eliminator. Air eliminators also make great dirt separators. The dirt will sit on the bladder of the tank and shorten it's service life. Yours look good on the wall.
The expansion tank and fill valve do not have to be connected to the air eliminator. They are often done this way out of convenience.
The circulator can reside on the return side of the boiler, It just should not pump towards the expansion tank and prv.
The quickest way to solve your problem would be to install a tee between the return pipe and the boiler drain (hose connection) just above the circulator and tie the expansion tank and fill line in there. You could then leave the circ and air eliminator where they are.
Yes the the air eliminator would work a little better if it was installed in the area of slightly lower pressure behind the circulator, oh well...

Carl

Weight

@ July 15, 2014 11:31 PM in Hercules coal furnace--how much to ask our neighbor for it?

I would sell it as if was scrap. You will never have hard feelings that way. What does steel scrap for in your area? $.10 per pound?
What else are you going to do with it? It will go to a good home, or continue to rust in their yard.

No worries...

@ July 15, 2014 1:02 PM in Second guessing

I was checking my own sanity more than anything.....

12"?

@ July 15, 2014 9:20 AM in Second guessing

Rich,
Wouldn't 12" centers be about 1,600 feet of tubing? It would be a little more for the manifolds but pretty close to a tube every foot. Certainly not 2,400 feet of tube in the floor.
Carl

Food color

@ July 15, 2014 8:50 AM in How Long

I think NBC has the right plan.
If the tube is presently full of water, you could put some food coloring in the new water so you can tell where you started.
If you have access to a utility locator, you can run a wire or a fish tape through the pipe and clamp the locator to that to determine the depth.
Carl

Output

@ July 14, 2014 3:58 PM in Second guessing

Siggy's software puts your output at about 62K BTU or 39BTU/ft. at the 115 design temp.
That seems a little high but considering the insutarp (I agree it is crap) and the under insulated walls I think I would run with it unless you do a heat loss calc that tells you different.
Too much radiation is never a bad thing, particularly if you are running a condensing boiler.

Questions

@ July 14, 2014 2:05 PM in Second guessing

Are you saying you are heating a 1600 sq foot space with tubing at 9" centers or are there 2 floors?
What kind of underslab insulation?

Pointless

@ July 13, 2014 12:29 AM in Getting into mod/con business

You seem to recognize the futility of the truck argument. Yet you hold onto this one.
How about getting together for a few hours of TIC TAC TOE?

I am just pointing out that you have a habit of hijacking threads in order to validate your selection of heating systems.

Start your own thread and start your own argument (again) I will gladly ignore it

Cad

@ July 12, 2014 11:47 PM in hydroniCad

I bought hydronicad recently. It does a great job with boiler piping.
I would l also would like to know what folks are using for loops and electrical drawings.
Loopcad seems to be popular.

Why?

@ July 12, 2014 11:41 PM in Getting into mod/con business

BC,
Why do you insist on turning every post into a defense of your purchase of a boiler or water heater or whatever it is?

The Brookfield study accurately represents the efficiency difference between mod/ cons and CI boilers using baseboard heat, not he best application for mod cons.

I think it is great that you are happy with your purchase.i personally would not use it for that application. Others on this forum agree.

Can you please let it rest?

Come back in 20 years and tell everyone how reliable it has been and how wrong we were.

This post had nothing to do with you or your water heater, nor does your banter add anything to the discussion.

Carl

123

@ July 11, 2014 2:11 PM in Mod/con poll. Installers only.

You can't simplify it quite that far.
There is a huge difference between a system designed to run on 180 degree water vs 120. How is it  zoned? What is the energy cost? How difficult is it to repipe the vent?
For some owners it would be an obvious answer 1 for others absolutely 2. For a handful of jobs it is truly a coin toss. Your job is to evaluate the job and make a recommendation.
Sorry about the rules
Carl

Agree to disagree

@ July 11, 2014 11:13 AM in Getting into mod/con business

BC,
None of this is a personal attack. Different people have different opinions. Everyone is wired differently and not everyone will come to the same conclusion when presented with the same facts. That's life...
It would be more productive to have a heated debate over what brand of truck you should drive.
Carl

Huh?

@ July 11, 2014 2:27 AM in DHW configuration

Ice,
It is great to see you are enjoying your retirement. I really am enjoying your posts I am just not sure how they pertain to the the original question.
What is it raining in Florida?
Carl

Tough one...

@ July 11, 2014 2:21 AM in Technician

The t-stat's connection to the air handler is though a communicating signal as is the air handler's connection to the heat pump. You won't be able to use those signals without a manufactures device or an advanced degree in controls.

You may be able to set a relay at the heat pump but it would require a wiring diagram, some brain damage and would likely  void the warantee.

Best ofliuck
Carl

AIM

@ July 10, 2014 4:40 PM in New Radiant System

The highest efficiency claimed on the website is 86%
Do you have specs on the boiler they are proposing? Unless they are providing you a government test rating like DOE rating, the numbers are likely BS.
Can you post the type of panel design they are proposing? If you use the staple up design they depict on their site you will never condense, it may not even heat. If you do an inslab or aluminum plate design you will easily condense.

I think you would be better off updating your steam system than doing a budget radiant install.
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