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Zman

Zman

Joined on January 19, 2012

Last Post on July 25, 2014

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Insulation

@ July 25, 2014 8:59 AM in Radiant Heat Matrix Other Than Concrete.

The tanks sounds great! You really need to insulate it.
I am still in favor of a combo solar absorbing/emitting feature in the green house. I think a heat loss calc and some calculations of potential emitting surfaces is needed.  You need to store water in the tank at a higher temp, giving up the heat to the ground does not make sense.
Carl

Flow or temp

@ July 24, 2014 2:46 PM in Lochinvar sheild HIgh limit problem

Having the setpoint to close to the high limit temp could be causing the issue.
Is the circulator working properly?
Does the boiler have a postpurge circulator setting?

New Thread

@ July 24, 2014 2:42 PM in NG Combi Boiler versus indirect tank and boiler setup

You will get better answers if you start a new thread...

Something for nothing...

@ July 24, 2014 9:29 AM in Want to move from oil to gas boiler. Best way forward?

Rich,
I completely agree with you about the need for more buffer and storage in these systems.
Companies like Navien will always sell product to their customer base.
There are people out there that insist that you can get something for nothing. The navien is irresistible to folks with that mindset. Just don't try to confuse them with all this talkabout quality, mass, buffer, short cycling of gas line sizing. The Navien costs less, has a high efficiency sticker on it and makes the house and hot water warm (usually) end of story.
Carl

Temps

@ July 24, 2014 9:17 AM in Tubing size, spacing, flow rate for a joist install

It looks like you may need to raise your temps into the 120-130 range.
Not a big deal. Keep the loops short ans you should be fine.
Carl

Freeze protection

@ July 23, 2014 9:17 AM in Suggestions wanted

If it turns out you need freeze protection, You could have a seperate control that would turn the OWB circ back on if the water drops below 50 degrees and then off of it goes over say 70 degrees. If this was wired in parallel with the other control, it would give freeze protection without wasting as much heat or confusing the primary control into thinking the  OW boiler if firing.

Suggestion

@ July 23, 2014 8:43 AM in Suggestions wanted

The way I see it you have 2 problems.
The first problem is inadequate flow to the OWB. I agree that 9 gpm should be your target. Assuming that your indirect has fairly low resistance (not an amtrol) here is about what you will see:
Taco 007                4.4gpm
Taco 0014              6.63gpm
Taco 0013              8.34gpm
Grundfos 26-99    7.8gpm

The other problem is the piping/control arrangement.
Since the boilers are piped in series, when either is firing, it is wasting heat through the other. If you don't have glycol in the outdoor boiler, you may need this setup to prevent the outdoor boiler from freezing when on vacation and the OWB is not firing. If you don't need to keep the outdoor boiler warm using the indoor boiler, it would be pretty simple to install an aquastat and a DT/DT relay that would only allow the indoor boiler to fire if the outdoor boiler is cold. You would simultaneously turn on the indoor boiler and turn off the circ to the outdoor boiler. Problem solved...

Layout

@ July 22, 2014 11:46 AM in Tubing size, spacing, flow rate for a joist install

You will want to determine the required BTU output per square foot in each room.You will also need to know the design water temp your system is running the coldest design day.
If you use 1/2" tubing and keep the lengths around 200', you should be able to acheive your design flow rate fairly easily.

Some sort of aluminum track will be needed. Here is some good info from uponer.
http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Extranet/Files/manuals/JoistTrakHandbook_051.aspx

Heaters

@ July 21, 2014 8:00 PM in Electric Baseboard Vs Hydronic Electric Baseboards

The only advantage see is that they will more evenly and perhaps more quietly. I don't see how they can run at a lower temp as the overall wattage an size is very similar.

I know you are just looking for the answer to the question you have asked.
I would also suggest radiant cove heat for the reasons suggested above.

What is the reasoning behind the honeywell system? It looks like a major pain!

Wall..

@ July 21, 2014 5:35 PM in Radiant Heat Matrix Other Than Concrete.

Scott,
It sounds like an interesting project.
Have you considered turning a wall of the greenhouse into a solar collector by day and  radiant heater at night? Greenhouses are usually way to hot in the daytime and cool rapidly at night. If you built a wall using pex and aluminum radiant plates and paint it  black  you could store the excess energy in your tank and pump it back at night.
Carl

Insight

@ July 17, 2014 10:55 PM in Runtal towel warmer connection

This post may give you some insight http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/141860/hydronic-circulating-pump-and-TRVs

Good point...

@ July 17, 2014 7:54 AM in Constantly purging air in hydronic system

Mike makes a good point. At the end of the day, where is the air coming from?
Low system pressure is a likely one.
Is the pressure relief valve dripping?
What happens if you turn off the fill valve?
I think the tank corrosion Mike is talking about would not occur in a truly closed system with no leaks.
Carl

Improvements

@ July 17, 2014 12:51 AM in Constantly purging air in hydronic system

First off.
You need a check valve where the city water enters the system.The watts reducing valve you have is often sold with one attached.Yours does not have one.
The pressure reducing valve can be adjusted. You spin the nut under the lever. Chances are it should be in the 15# to 18# range. How high is it from the boiler to the highest radiator?
The expansion tank (yours is a bladder style) should be charged to the same pressure. You do this with a bike pump with the tank drained.
I do not hang pressure tanks below the air eliminator. Air eliminators also make great dirt separators. The dirt will sit on the bladder of the tank and shorten it's service life. Yours look good on the wall.
The expansion tank and fill valve do not have to be connected to the air eliminator. They are often done this way out of convenience.
The circulator can reside on the return side of the boiler, It just should not pump towards the expansion tank and prv.
The quickest way to solve your problem would be to install a tee between the return pipe and the boiler drain (hose connection) just above the circulator and tie the expansion tank and fill line in there. You could then leave the circ and air eliminator where they are.
Yes the the air eliminator would work a little better if it was installed in the area of slightly lower pressure behind the circulator, oh well...

Carl

Weight

@ July 15, 2014 11:31 PM in Hercules coal furnace--how much to ask our neighbor for it?

I would sell it as if was scrap. You will never have hard feelings that way. What does steel scrap for in your area? $.10 per pound?
What else are you going to do with it? It will go to a good home, or continue to rust in their yard.

No worries...

@ July 15, 2014 1:02 PM in Second guessing

I was checking my own sanity more than anything.....

12"?

@ July 15, 2014 9:20 AM in Second guessing

Rich,
Wouldn't 12" centers be about 1,600 feet of tubing? It would be a little more for the manifolds but pretty close to a tube every foot. Certainly not 2,400 feet of tube in the floor.
Carl

Food color

@ July 15, 2014 8:50 AM in How Long

I think NBC has the right plan.
If the tube is presently full of water, you could put some food coloring in the new water so you can tell where you started.
If you have access to a utility locator, you can run a wire or a fish tape through the pipe and clamp the locator to that to determine the depth.
Carl

Output

@ July 14, 2014 3:58 PM in Second guessing

Siggy's software puts your output at about 62K BTU or 39BTU/ft. at the 115 design temp.
That seems a little high but considering the insutarp (I agree it is crap) and the under insulated walls I think I would run with it unless you do a heat loss calc that tells you different.
Too much radiation is never a bad thing, particularly if you are running a condensing boiler.

Questions

@ July 14, 2014 2:05 PM in Second guessing

Are you saying you are heating a 1600 sq foot space with tubing at 9" centers or are there 2 floors?
What kind of underslab insulation?

Pointless

@ July 13, 2014 12:29 AM in Getting into mod/con business

You seem to recognize the futility of the truck argument. Yet you hold onto this one.
How about getting together for a few hours of TIC TAC TOE?

I am just pointing out that you have a habit of hijacking threads in order to validate your selection of heating systems.

Start your own thread and start your own argument (again) I will gladly ignore it

Cad

@ July 12, 2014 11:47 PM in hydroniCad

I bought hydronicad recently. It does a great job with boiler piping.
I would l also would like to know what folks are using for loops and electrical drawings.
Loopcad seems to be popular.

Why?

@ July 12, 2014 11:41 PM in Getting into mod/con business

BC,
Why do you insist on turning every post into a defense of your purchase of a boiler or water heater or whatever it is?

The Brookfield study accurately represents the efficiency difference between mod/ cons and CI boilers using baseboard heat, not he best application for mod cons.

I think it is great that you are happy with your purchase.i personally would not use it for that application. Others on this forum agree.

Can you please let it rest?

Come back in 20 years and tell everyone how reliable it has been and how wrong we were.

This post had nothing to do with you or your water heater, nor does your banter add anything to the discussion.

Carl
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