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Zman

Zman

Joined on January 19, 2012

Last Post on July 30, 2014

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Pointless

@ July 13, 2014 12:29 AM in Getting into mod/con business

You seem to recognize the futility of the truck argument. Yet you hold onto this one.
How about getting together for a few hours of TIC TAC TOE?

I am just pointing out that you have a habit of hijacking threads in order to validate your selection of heating systems.

Start your own thread and start your own argument (again) I will gladly ignore it

Cad

@ July 12, 2014 11:47 PM in hydroniCad

I bought hydronicad recently. It does a great job with boiler piping.
I would l also would like to know what folks are using for loops and electrical drawings.
Loopcad seems to be popular.

Why?

@ July 12, 2014 11:41 PM in Getting into mod/con business

BC,
Why do you insist on turning every post into a defense of your purchase of a boiler or water heater or whatever it is?

The Brookfield study accurately represents the efficiency difference between mod/ cons and CI boilers using baseboard heat, not he best application for mod cons.

I think it is great that you are happy with your purchase.i personally would not use it for that application. Others on this forum agree.

Can you please let it rest?

Come back in 20 years and tell everyone how reliable it has been and how wrong we were.

This post had nothing to do with you or your water heater, nor does your banter add anything to the discussion.

Carl

123

@ July 11, 2014 2:11 PM in Mod/con poll. Installers only.

You can't simplify it quite that far.
There is a huge difference between a system designed to run on 180 degree water vs 120. How is it  zoned? What is the energy cost? How difficult is it to repipe the vent?
For some owners it would be an obvious answer 1 for others absolutely 2. For a handful of jobs it is truly a coin toss. Your job is to evaluate the job and make a recommendation.
Sorry about the rules
Carl

Agree to disagree

@ July 11, 2014 11:13 AM in Getting into mod/con business

BC,
None of this is a personal attack. Different people have different opinions. Everyone is wired differently and not everyone will come to the same conclusion when presented with the same facts. That's life...
It would be more productive to have a heated debate over what brand of truck you should drive.
Carl

Huh?

@ July 11, 2014 2:27 AM in DHW configuration

Ice,
It is great to see you are enjoying your retirement. I really am enjoying your posts I am just not sure how they pertain to the the original question.
What is it raining in Florida?
Carl

Tough one...

@ July 11, 2014 2:21 AM in Technician

The t-stat's connection to the air handler is though a communicating signal as is the air handler's connection to the heat pump. You won't be able to use those signals without a manufactures device or an advanced degree in controls.

You may be able to set a relay at the heat pump but it would require a wiring diagram, some brain damage and would likely  void the warantee.

Best ofliuck
Carl

AIM

@ July 10, 2014 4:40 PM in New Radiant System

The highest efficiency claimed on the website is 86%
Do you have specs on the boiler they are proposing? Unless they are providing you a government test rating like DOE rating, the numbers are likely BS.
Can you post the type of panel design they are proposing? If you use the staple up design they depict on their site you will never condense, it may not even heat. If you do an inslab or aluminum plate design you will easily condense.

I think you would be better off updating your steam system than doing a budget radiant install.

A solution....

@ July 9, 2014 9:11 AM in What do you think of this new product?

This looks like a solution looking for a problem.

Anyone who has stepped in a dogturd with bare feet would be disinclined to try this one.

I think I will stick with the plunger.

recirc?

@ July 9, 2014 8:47 AM in DHW configuration

The first thing I would be looking at is your standby heat losses. Do you have an uninsulated recirc line? Maybe a bad case of gravity thermosyphoning?
You should not be seeing those kinds of cycles during times when no hot water is being used.

As far as adjustments go. You can manipulate the settings a great deal if you have a thermastatic mixing valve to stabilize the outlet temp and protect from scalding.You could for example turn the boiler on when the tank temp is at 120 and off when it hits 140.

The On/off differential will maximize the cycle length. Lowering the boiler temp during  a call for hot water will allow the boiler to condense during part of the DHW cycle. Without condensing, your 95+% boiler is just a 84% model.

The first step is to get control of the heat loss. I think that is where most of the waste is.

Correctly

@ July 9, 2014 8:01 AM in New Radiant System

Just because a company builds a website and starts selling stuff, that does not mean it is done correctly.
Many of the details depicted on their website are flat out wrong.
I think buying a boiler like the inferno is a mistake. Sure it's less expensive. Taking a non condensing boiler and putting it in a low temp environment without proper controls is a recipe for failure.

I think you would be better off buying a quality condensing boiler and installing it per manufactures printed instructions. The suggestion of panel radiators with TRVs is a good one. You can't go wrong by running home runs to each one.

As far as AIM having a less expensive product.They are providing a lower quality product. If you take the cost of the cheapo boiler out of the picture, I seriously doubt they are any cheaper.I would heat with the water heater in your picture before I would consider an inferno.

Bonding

@ July 8, 2014 10:55 PM in Jury Rules That CSST is a Defective Product

Davebert,
Was the line bonded?

No Way!

@ July 8, 2014 12:01 AM in New Radiant System

I quick look at the website says it all.http://www.aimradiantheating.com/store/insulation.html

These guys are still pedaling Foil insulation and plateless staple up, it's like 1990 all over again.

What the heck it an Inferno boiler/water heater thing? Try buying parts for that one.

Their installation photos are hysterical. 300' lengths, no pressure test and spaghetti.
They certainly have enough circulators in their designs.

If you are serious about this as a DYI, get someone to do a real design based on your actual heat loss calc. Use a real modulating/condensing boiler. You will have to pay for the design, It is worth it.


Carl

Window

@ July 2, 2014 10:28 PM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

Inside the cabinet, on top of the heat exchanger is a window where you can view the flame.
The boiler will sometimes get confused if the delta t is too tight between supply and return. Yours sounds pretty normal. Do you have a multi speed circ?

0%

@ July 2, 2014 7:56 PM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

I believe that 0% is off. You could confirm by looking in the glass window on top of the exchanger.
What is the supply and return temp when it is at 0%. It sounds like the flow rate is not right

Ceiling

@ July 2, 2014 10:31 AM in Kitec transition

Sorry this is not answering your question.
Why not replace the staple up with an aluminum plate system then install a radiant ceiling below.
I am looking at a project like that right now.
All the Kitec and gremmlins from the original install would go away. You have the ceiling open anyway.
Carl

Sizing

@ July 2, 2014 10:27 AM in New gas boiler sizing

To answer your question about sizing.
The final boiler size needs to be determined by a proper heat loss calc.
To give you a rough idea.You have 122 feet of baseboard. On a really good day they will produce 550 BTU per foot. With most installs you won't get this much. You could not possibly need a boiler with an output rating over 67,100 BTU. There is no possible way to transfer any more energy than that to the rooms.
The most economical choice would be a properly sized 2 stage firing atmospheric boiler that utilizes the existing vent.

Triangle Tube

@ July 1, 2014 8:41 PM in Getting into mod/con business

I like the Triangle Tube boilers.The fire tube exchanger is a workhorse They have good training and support. The warrantee is an easy process. They make a service parts kit that works for all models.
I am not in New York.

Budget

@ July 1, 2014 8:36 PM in New gas boiler sizing

We don't talk pricing here but I am curious how you came up with a budget.
The cost of getting a system installed is a combination of cost of materials and the contractors labor and profit/overhead. It will vary from region to region depending on local economies.
How in the world did you come up with a budget without a single bid or a system design?
Just because you want something to cost a certain amount does not mean it will. Try going to your local restaurant and telling them you want the lobster diner for $5.

I would suggest you find a reputable contractor and have them design and price a few options. Some will let you pay for the design and credit it back if they get the job. This approach would allow you to get apples to apples price comparisons.
JMO
CArl

Cycles

@ June 30, 2014 10:57 PM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

I have never messed with the post purge setting. I would concerned that it would create a delay between the DHW and heat cycles.The logic in the controller may overide.

You could observe how long it takes to equalize the DHW storage with the Boiler temp and set it for that amount of time.

I think your thinking about the recirc aquastat being effected  buy the tank is correct.

Carl

Settings

@ June 30, 2014 7:18 AM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

If you need higher than 120 then so be it. I would play with the lower numbers and see how you like it. 120 is not a magic number for dishwasher sanitation.

The DHW timeout setting is not the same as post purge. It is designed to prevent the house from getting cold in the event of a very long DHW cycle. It will make the boiler switch back to heating mode after a set amount of time.

Condensing

@ June 30, 2014 1:29 AM in TT Smart 80 & Prestige Solo 110 Summer Gas Usage

Attached is a presentation that should clear up the condensing question.

My point about the electric water heater is that if you multiply the wattage of the heater coil by 3.412 you will get the Btu output. Most heaters are around 5kw. I say this because people who install regular electric water heaters on there jobs love to make a big deal about oversizing  boilers for the DHW load when they do indirect jobs. It just does not make sense.

Back to your setup. You have a boiler with 110K/btu input. derated  for efficiency it will put out between 90 and 100 k/btu. At 18% firing, it will be putting out 18% of that number.

By the nature of  heat exchanges the return temp can never be lower that the tank temp. By turning down some settings, you should be able to keep the return boiler temps under 130.


Your indirect has a great deal of surface area relative to the boiler size. This means you do not need a 46 degree add. I would set the the add to about 20 degrees and the tank temp to 120. I would leave the on/off differentials alone. The anti-legenella should be turned on and the DHW timeout I usually set to 90 minutes. If you have a variable speed circulator on the DHW turn it to low.

Keep in mind all this is chasing approx 5% in efficiency.

By turning down these settings you may run the risk of the DHW cycle taking too long and short changing the heat load. Keep an eye on this.

Carl
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