Joined on January 19, 2012
Last Post on December 12, 2013
@ December 2, 2012 8:42 PM in Short Cycling Triangle TubeChris,
It sounds like he is working to that end. I do not disagree.
@ December 2, 2012 7:53 PM in Short Cycling Triangle TubeChris,
Absolutely the best fix to short cycling in this case would be a buffer tank.
I do believe some improvements could be made by fine tuning the curves.
The data provided is flawed as it does not indicate which zones are calling.
@ December 2, 2012 7:40 PM in Installling indirect water heaterThe taco 502-4 would do the trick.
If this were mine, I would move the 007 to the other side of the expansion tank "pumping away". The taco 218 flocheck is unnecessary and may cause some hammering once you install zone valves. I would put the 007 there.
I realize crown did not draw it this way.Years ago many manufactures drew it just like crown. Most have come to there senses.Your system will purge air better and last longer if you move the 007.
You would eliminate some unintended heat migration if you put the zone valves on the supply side.
When it comes time to replace the boiler, I would think smaller.
@ December 2, 2012 4:23 PM in Installling indirect water heaterYour T&P does not need to be bigger than the heat source, 120,000.
I would not even consider the wiring diagram in the manual. I am sure it would work. But why would you do that. Taco makes simple zone controllers that will do all that without the brain damage.
How big is the header your zone valves tee off of?
Your boiler aquastat should be fine as is.
How many heat zones do you have? How is it piped?
A picture would help.
@ December 2, 2012 3:55 PM in Amtrol Boiler mate wh80z taking hours to heat???With your existing setup, I don't see any negative effect of turning off priority. The boiler has more capacity than your tank can absorb. This is causing your boiler to cycle. If you turn it off you with likely see no difference in DHW.
If you install a new tank, get one that matches or exceeds the boiler capacity and turn priority back on.
I like heat-flow and triangle tube exchangers.
@ December 2, 2012 11:49 AM in Amtrol Boiler mate wh80z taking hours to heat???Your boiler should be able to heat water from 50 to 120 at a rate of 3.8 GPM. That would mean if the tank is cold it would take 21 minutes. The heat exchanger on the amtrol was probably never capable of that as it has a limited flow rate and surface area. It is certainly scaled now. If the problem persists after a cleaning you my want to consider a different tank. If you keep the amtrol why not eliminate DHW priority feature.I think it is just a switch on most taco relays.
@ December 2, 2012 11:33 AM in Short Cycling Triangle TubeHow many zones do you have?
Lowering the water temps should reduce the radiators output and shorten burn times.The circulator post purge starts after the t stat is satisfied.
@ December 1, 2012 8:16 AM in Short Cycling Triangle TubeThe number I here tossed around the most is 6 cycles per hour.
That would be a complete cycle every 10 minutes (on and off time). It looks like you are pretty close.
There are 3 things effecting your cycle time;
1. System mass. It takes 1 BTU to heat one pound of water one degree.The more water you have, the more energy your system can absorb and hold between cycles.More mass will absorb more energy and lengthen cycles.You could add a buffer tank, I think this would make the biggest difference.
2. Boiler on /off differential. Your trimax should be automatically going to low fire and stretching the differential out to 20 degrees. By activating call block you are effectively stetching it further.
3.The ability for your radiators to emit energy. In a perfect world your radiators would be sized to match the low fire rate of the boiler. If this were true the boiler would run constantly at low fire until the demand is satisfied. This is not usually practical/possible in a residential system. By lowering your water temps, you are doing a good thing by making the return water colder and increasing the efficiency of the burn. Lowering the temps will have the negative effect of reducing the transfer rate of your radiators thus decreasing cycle lengths. You will have to find a balance that works for you.
@ November 30, 2012 12:25 AM in First Winter with TT Solo 110What you have is circulators in series. You are way over pumping. I think the right solution is to pipe it primary secondary. It would probably work fine if you removed the boiler circ and set the zones to low.
@ November 30, 2012 12:09 AM in Burnham Alpine vs Weil Mclain Ulta vs Triangle Tube Trimax SoloI like Burnhams for cast iron boilers. I my mind the lochinvar wall hung condensing has a superior exchanger and excellent support.
@ November 29, 2012 9:41 AM in Burnham Alpine vs Weil Mclain Ulta vs Triangle Tube Trimax SoloTake a close look at the exchangers. That is the main difference in condensing boilers.
The Alpine uses gionni. Which is time tested but has a few issues with maintenance.The ultra is aluminum, I would not install aluminum in a heat system. The tt is firetube, I like it.
After you decide on the exchanger. Look at the availability of parts and service in your area as well as quality of controls and warrantee.
The vitoden is also a good option
@ November 29, 2012 9:29 AM in Reversed Return & SupplyIs the boiler at the upper left? It is pumping into the return on the boiler? Which way is the the circ on the left pumping? It looks like down.
@ November 28, 2012 11:42 PM in Twinning disaster. Please help me sort it out.First, If someone else is also working on the system that is not good. That must stop.
The idea of 2 light switches and one bulb is a bit flawed. The furnaces are designed to be separate appliances. It may work that way, I would be concerned that the boiler safeties may not work correctly. If your boilers are on separate circuits with separate transformers, you may be generating 48 volts in your 24 volt system. You likely need a separate twinning controller to do this correctly. The manufacture should be able to direct you.
@ November 27, 2012 11:54 PM in Reversed Return & SupplyThe drawing in the manual shows one correct way to pipe your system. There are variations that may also be correct.
@ November 27, 2012 8:52 AM in Cooling Tower SpecificationsHow do cooling towers relate to DHW?
@ November 27, 2012 8:49 AM in Electric Baseboard HeatThermostatI believe Honeywell / Aube t-stats break both poles. They also have a nice vacation mode that can be controlled remotely.
Swei is correct that many t-stats used are single pole and the turn off the heaters just fine. There are 2 pole models out there. I prefer them
@ November 27, 2012 8:41 AM in Triangle Tube Solo 110 and Smart 80Chris is absolutely correct that you need to do a heat loss. Your supply house may have someone that can do it for you.Take a close look at your loss on a zone by zone basis.Look at the loss with one or two of the smaller zones calling. Compare the loss of those zones on an average heating day to the lowest turndown ratio you boiler(s) are capable of. I would start considering a buffer tank when the typical single zone load is less than 1/2 the lowest output of the boiler(s). The 110's will do a much better job of matching your load than the 175's.
You and your plumber seem to be gravitating back to "bigger is better". In heating "bigger is worse".
Keep in mind;
The DHW load will never be simultaneous with another load.
The heating load (which is probably closer to 70,000) will have priority over the snowmelt ( I agree with 144k). The house will never get cold as a result of snow.
The heating load will be less than your design day load when snowmelt occurs. A properly controlled snowmelt system will not attempt to melt snow on the very coldest day.
The key to efficiency here is to share these loads using one boiler plant. It doesn't make sense to just add up all of the loads under a worst case scenario then round up numbers that have already been rounded up several times.These conditions never happen. This practice is very prevalent in north american designs and is in my opinion one of the largest wastes of energy today.
@ November 27, 2012 12:32 AM in 2 Questions (Outdoor Reset, Short Cycle)This is much easier with the trimax. I just finished a system very similar to yours. The boiler circ when piped primary/secondary should be on 1 . That is from the West coast tt trainer. On the trimax you can view the boiler delta t on either the main screen or in the info menu. I think a delta t on the system side of 10 to 20 is good.
I think the issue you are experiencing is that the lower water temps are reducing the output of the baseboards and causing short cycling. The low cost fix is to raise the boiler temp curve. This will cost you some efficiency. The other option, as you suggested, is to install low temp baseboards.You can look for the sensor test procedure in the old manual, it hasn't changed.
@ November 27, 2012 12:11 AM in Reversed Return & SupplyThe location of the tee's is relative to the flow in the 2 loops. Do you have a picture of your piping?
@ November 26, 2012 11:07 PM in Triangle Tube Solo 110 and Smart 80You will want to set the system up make DHW a priority. Heating would be next. Snowmelt would be a low priority setpoint it would only work when other demands are satisfied. Tekmar controls would be my suggestion.
@ November 26, 2012 9:51 AM in Noisy Burnham AlpineI think that combustion should be the the first suspect. Chances are it is to lean.
I was under the impression that throttle adjusted the gas across the whole range and the that the ratio adjusted was used only when you could not get both the high and the low fire correct.
If his high is in range and low is still out, the ratio would need to be adjusted.
I know this is true of the honeywell. I have less time with the dungs.