Heating Help

Firetube HX

@ May 8, 2013 10:56 PM in Time to choose a boiler

I would go with the triangle tube. The firetube exchanger is stainless, has less maintenance and takes less circulator energy. They also have  excellent tech support .

The slant fin and buderous are aluminum. Aluminum is a bad choice for a boiler.

Most of the other players use a giovanni heat exchanger. High maintenance and finicky.

Viesmann is also a fine product.

Carl

Anyone else?

@ May 6, 2013 10:45 AM in Condensate

Thank you Tony.

Does anyone else want to weigh in?
I was kind of hoping someone had tested the PH before and after or maybe had a rotten pipe horror story to tell.
If my post was about delta t  vs delta p or open vs closed heating I would have had 50 passionate responses by now.
This seems like one of those subjects that we all just bury our heads in the sand and install and forget a neutralizer.

Does it work? How long does it last? Is the PH really any worse than dumping a few gallons of orange juice down the toilet? How about NG vs LPG?

How about this. Chevy Trucks are the best! No one should own a Ford, Dodge or Toyota.

Carl

Do it right

@ May 6, 2013 10:28 AM in Suggestions for frustrated and confused homeowner

The Triangle Tube may be twice as much as the Navien. Are you thinking that TT is just hungry for profits? I think it is built that much better. In my opinion companies building cheap condensing units are doing the industry a major disservice. All condensing boilers do NOT increase maintenance costs and have shorter service lives. Poorly made and/or installed units do.
You get what you pay for, so don't complain when the cheap one doesn't work. I would be pretty sure that pictures from the original post were not the work of the high bidder?
Carl

Uphonor

@ May 5, 2013 2:38 PM in T-Stat

The other nice thing about the uponor is that you can lock out the high and low. Perfect for places where people meddle with t-stats.
Carl

Make sense

@ May 5, 2013 11:56 AM in Condensate

Propane combustion generally has higher CO2 than natural gas.
Tony,
Are you saying it will off gas to the air?
Thanks
Carl

More info

@ May 5, 2013 9:24 AM in Question for the math junkies

The cost to operate the circulator is literally pennies a month. 2hrs X 30 days X 25 watts X .00015 = 22.5 cents. Your heat loss threw the piping is another question all together. How long is the pipe? What type of pipe? What is the flow? How is it insulated? What is the temp of the air?
I lent out my Modern Hydronic Heating book and am unfortunately not smart enough to do it in my head.
Carl

Condensate

@ May 5, 2013 9:12 AM in Condensate

I've been thinking lately about the way we treat the condensate from condensing boilers and furnaces.
First off, It appears that propane condensate is more prone to damaging copper and cast piping than natural gas. There is nothing scientific about the observation, Ive just never seen the damage on natural gas systems that I have seen with propane.
I am thinking that the condensate neutralizers that everyone sells probably work pretty well as long as the media is changed regularly. It doesn't seem like like most systems get changed ever.
My question is,has anyone tested the PH before and after neutralizing?
Has anyone tested an unmaintained neutralizer?
Is my observation about Propane and Natural gas true or my imagination?
How bad is it to put untreated condensate in cast pipes?

It seems this is one of those things everyone does without much consideration, or maybe it is just me.

Carl

The rest of the story...

@ May 3, 2013 10:56 AM in Suggestions for frustrated and confused homeowner

First off that is one horrible install. The kindergarteners should absolutely have their recess taken away.
Other thoughts:
What are your other energy options? Electricity is only 100% eff at the point of use. With plant inefficiencies and line loss it is more like 30%.
What do you pay for energy?
How is the rest of the install?
Does the tubing have an o2 barrier?
How long are the tubing loops?
Are the slabs insulated?
You need to have a heat loss done.

I would hate to see you spend a ton of money to make boiler room right to find out the rest of the system is junk.
Carl

Sorry to hear...

@ May 1, 2013 9:54 AM in Unico system vs forced air

Sorry to hear about your Son's health.
It is also unfortunate that your Unico system was installed so poorly.
A house with a rodent problem is also unfortunate.
It is unclear to me what this problem has to do with Unico.
Many conventional systems use flex duct. The often have freezing and electrical problems when installed incorrectly.
This site is awesome for helping people sort out heating problems. There are plenty of other sites that are designed to help consumers to rip on manufactures.
Are you looking for assistance so you don't duplicate your past bad install or just looking for a 10 year old post to rip on?

Will not...

@ April 30, 2013 12:23 PM in Taking out a 3 yr old Navian..

We have TT units that have been in the field for 8 years.Aside from some minor control glitches on the early models they have been bombproof.

Old design

@ April 30, 2013 11:19 AM in Taking out a 3 yr old Navian..

I truly don't understand how these giovanni and aluminum designs are holding on to such a big chunk of the market.
The TT, Lochinvar, and Veissmann's are so much better.
Do people just see the WM or Burnham names and jump right in?
Utilities and contractors that push old designs are doing the industry and their customers a disservice.
Carl

Max

@ April 30, 2013 11:06 AM in BTU rate Amtrol WH7L

The maximum the tank can absorb would be 80,000. That is based purely on the boiler side connection. The real number may be lower depending on the surface area of the exchanger.
Amtrol should have those numbers if you need to get closer.
Carl

Amtrol

@ April 29, 2013 9:55 PM in BTU rate Amtrol WH7L

I did not find any info on that exact model. Most amtrol indirect have 3/4" boiler side piping. They also have a fairly high head loss exchanger design. I would be surprised if it will allow more than 4 GPM to flow through.In the very best day that exchanger would release enough energy to give you a delta t of 40 degrees. 4X40x500= 80,000 BTU.
In reality I am not convinced it would be that high.
Carl

In a nutshell...

@ April 27, 2013 7:18 PM in Automatic Water Feeder shuts off power at low water? Plumber says it's the thermostat

The t-stat should be connected to the boiler's isolated t-stat relay. Yours looks like it is wired into the boilers safety circuit.

When the LWCO detects low water it should disable the boiler's ability to fire (the t-stats should be unaffected). It should then signal the water feeder to add water. Once the water is at  the correct level, the lwco should read this and the  boiler should fire.By your drawing it looks like this is wired incorrectly.

My concern about trying to diagnose and repair this via the internet is that your boiler has been visited by at least one knucklehead. Knuckleheads don't know much about controls. They will just keep moving wires around until it works. By "works" I mean the boiler will get hot and you will stop calling them to fix it.

Any good heating company should have folks that understand how these systems work. They should be able to make sure the boiler is wired according to the diagram in the manual and that it is safe to operate. I know some great electricians and have yet to find one that wants to look at boiler controls. Go figure.

Carl

Drawing?

@ April 27, 2013 2:00 PM in Automatic Water Feeder shuts off power at low water? Plumber says it's the thermostat

It looks like your thermostat is connected to the boiler incorrectly. Are there terminals on the boiler that are not being used? Perhaps labeled "TT"  or "R1 W1" ?  You also seem to have some incorrect wiringl between the LWCO and the feeder.
The problem is once you find something wired this far off, who knows what else they screwed up. I think you should use this info to help find a professional who is qualified to fix it. Once someone has reconfigured the safety circuit, you need to be positive it is fixed correctly. There is a potential that the boiler could fire with a closed damper or that another safety has been inadvertently bypassed.
I think it is time to get someone to look at it that understands controls.
Carl

One line?

@ April 26, 2013 9:03 PM in Automatic Water Feeder shuts off power at low water? Plumber says it's the thermostat

Any chance you could do a simple one line drawing? Just a simple hand drawn showing the devices and how they are connected would be fine. At first glance it looks like you are short a common somewhere. It makes my head hurt without a drawing.
Carl

T-stat

@ April 26, 2013 4:28 PM in Automatic Water Feeder shuts off power at low water? Plumber says it's the thermostat

I am assuming that this is the correct manual for your boiler http://cdn.usboiler.net/products/boilers/independence/assets/Independence.pdf

If so the t-stat should always be powered regardless of the LWCO. The boiler will not fire if the LWCO is open.

Can you take pictures and make a drawing of your setup?

It sounds like the LWCO it powering off everything and as you said causing the auto fill to not work.

Yes there should be 3 wires.
It looks like the feeder should be wired like the drawing labled
PS-800 Series
STANDARD WIRING – NEWER MODELS
It is hard to tell because the manufacture assumes no one knows how to read schematics so they don't print them.

Carl

T-stat

@ April 26, 2013 3:52 PM in Automatic Water Feeder shuts off power at low water? Plumber says it's the thermostat

The t-stat should be hooked to the isolated thermostat relay.
The Low water cut off should be wired in series with the other safety switches.
They should not impact each other.
Beyond that, the fill valve should be tied to the LWCO per the manual and everything should be fine.
Carl

Low head loss

@ April 25, 2013 2:51 PM in Alpine MCBA - indirect insltallation

Don't pipe the indirect as a heat zone. It isn't a heat zone. Pipe it directly off the boiler. Just buy an indirect with a low head loss and be done with it. It is the best way to pipe it anyway. I haven't found the Burnham manuals to be very well thought out, and would not assume that the new drawing is any better than the old.
Any luck posting a drawing?
Carl

Oh

@ April 25, 2013 12:49 AM in Alpine MCBA - indirect insltallation

I didn't realize you are in the design phase. Do you already have the boiler and indirect?
The easiest thing would be to get an indirect with the correct exchanger so you can pipe it per the manual. If you already have an indirect you could always do a bipass loop.
I cannot view your drawing.
Carl

Awesome!

@ April 25, 2013 12:05 AM in An interesting interview with Henry Gifford on his class action law suit agains USGBC

Thanks Mark,
I love Henry. Scroll down to episode 187. http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-1547/TS-412824.mp3

It looks like there are tons of good stuff on here.

Carl

Logic?

@ April 23, 2013 9:53 AM in Radiator Hot, Thermostat Off WHY?? Triangle Tube Prestige Excellence

There is nothing logical about knucklehead installers (that's what you had).
Pressure relief valves are installed to prevent explosions. You are missing one. Aside from that the install is really sloppy (and leaky).
I would find a local company that understands your boiler and have them straighten it out. Anyone that comes to look at your setup and does not insist on a T&P on the domestic is not qualified. Triangle Tube has excellent support if you need more backup.
Carl