Joined on January 19, 2012
Last Post on August 31, 2014
@ August 1, 2013 8:44 AM in Optimum flow for in-slab heating10 degree delta is your target. The average temp is used to calculate output. The delta relates to the comfort or evenness of the heat. The actual flow needed really depends on the type of assembly and length of the loops.
@ August 1, 2013 12:14 AM in Advice needed on replacement hot water tankWith going to a 2# line. It is actually done pretty often in commercial work.
It does require regulators at all appliances. I would only use it as a last resort. It sounds like it is your last.
@ July 31, 2013 2:45 PM in help with updating heating systemI am thinking there is a consensus of folks that don't think the Navian is a solid product.
There are also quit a few folks that think combi units are an unacceptable compromise in many applications. Bear in mind these are pros that actually know how to calculate this stuff. Educated opinions not "gee mine works really well".
Homeowner1's persistance makes me tend to agree with Gennady that this is the work of a Navian employee.
@ July 31, 2013 1:20 PM in spray foam directly on radiant plates?Aside from the potential for a chemical reaction. If the insulators spray in too big a lift, the heat can melt the pex. This has happened and it really stinks. We just did one where we used 1/2" foil faced polyiso to separate the foam from the plates.We just cut it with a utility knife and used foil tape to secure and seal it to the joists. It worked like a charm
@ July 30, 2013 6:43 PM in Grunfos AlphaI have had the problem you describe with an alpha with 1/2" tubing in auto adapt mode. It is worse with the check valve installed. The problem goes away in constant pressure mode, that's not really what you are looking for.
The alpha is a pretty expensive solution. Could you wire a smaller circ into the zone control and call it good.
An alpha has low energy use when not pumping, it still uses a few watts.
@ July 30, 2013 6:33 PM in help with updating heating system"If you want to believe in something,
then believe in it."
"Just because something isn't true,
that's no reason you can't believe it."
Maybe my favorite movie, I find the words soothing when engaged in these kind of discussions.
@ July 30, 2013 6:29 PM in Creatherm panelsI agree that they hold the tubing too low. It will increase downward heat loss and force you to run higher temps. I realize you already know this.
The only way I have been able to get the tubing at the correct height is by using a rebar grid and putting it on chairs. I think tying it to the mesh is ineffective both structurally and from a from a heating point of view. Unless you personally supervise the pour, the tubes will end up at the bottom. Even if you do oversee it, it is a guessing game and you won't make any friends in the concrete world.
@ July 29, 2013 11:09 PM in Looking for a good propane boilerIf natural gas is not an option, I am not sure you are going to save save any money.
If you plug in your energy prices http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_sct_w.htm
Into this speadsheet www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls
You should have your answer.
@ July 27, 2013 10:36 PM in hot water boilerYou are talking about a closed loop hydronic boiler? Not dhw?
@ July 27, 2013 10:14 PM in ECATWithout knowing the type and cost of the fuel, I don't see any value here? There are all sorts of things with high energy density that can be triggered with electricity. C-4 and exotic rocket fuels have plenty of energy. Not to practical for heating a house.
I smell a scam,
@ July 27, 2013 9:56 PM in I was all set to order my boiler...Chris,
You are not alone. What you are saying is so obvious, yet I am amazed at how many times this argument arises. If the boiler manages the primary ECM circ, you will always have the perfect delta t. The only thing that matters on the system side is the average temp coming out of the primary. Returning lower temps to boiler maximizes efficiency. The biggest problem with mod cons is that the delta t is to tight under most operating conditions.
There are a lot more (and better) products out there than WM.They just are not breaking any technology barriers. It is great to see the passion you have for your boiler. I am sure you will quote me on that (a little annoying).
@ July 25, 2013 4:58 PM in radiant heat through 3.5 inches of wood floor?I think you can heat your house as you are describing. You will need heat transfer plates and lots of insulation under the tubing as well as at the exterior rim to make the heat go where you want it. I would expect the system to lag quite a bit as it will take time to heat up the wood.
The real question is why?
I have never walked on a wood floor, heated or not and noticed the temp. I don't know why, it just doesn't feel the same as heated tile or concrete floor.
If it were me, I would install European style panel radiators. The will respond more quickly and because they will not overshoot and undershoot like a high mass floor, your system will be more comfortable and efficient.
@ July 24, 2013 8:10 AM in Adding second hydronic loop to systemSteve,
I looks like you are on the right track. Chris makes a good point about making sure you are protecting the boiler from condensation. Has anyone compared your steam radiator EDR values to the size of you boiler. In other words, does your boiler have enough capacity to service your existing steam system and your new system?
@ July 24, 2013 7:08 AM in Advice needed on replacement hot water tankAre you sure you have exhausted the direct replacement option?
If you post more info and some measurements, someone on here can probably help.
The reason they are suggesting a 2# system is that you have an undersized gas line. If you increase it 2# then reduce it back down, you can do a tankless.
@ July 23, 2013 4:42 PM in Need help in sizing Lochinvar BoilerIt sounds like you are getting ready to install a great system.
I would pay to get the help of a good designer. Not only does a heat loss need to be done, some careful attention needs to be given to the sizing of the air units as well as the rest of the system. Find yourself a good design professional and rest easy. Many supply houses and manufactures will help with the design.
Your guess on boilers is much closer than the plumbers you have talked to. This should give you an idea as to there qualifications.
@ July 23, 2013 8:02 AM in Study Finds Spatial Skill Is Early Sign of CreativityIt seems like the first thing you need to find out when trying to explain something 3D to a new hire or even a customer is how well do they visualize it?
Some people can see it 3d and some just cannot. It would be great if this became part of the school testing. Folks that end up in construction, engineering and architect who struggle with this, do not end up doing very well.
@ July 23, 2013 7:50 AM in Adding second hydronic loop to systemChris is correct. Your radiant will pull a little less if you are mixing. Either way you are under the 4 gpm your 3/4" pipe can handle. In a perfect world you would pipe this reverse/return or increase your header size for a design of 2 fps. I think it will work as you are planning. You will have trouble finding a circ that will go down low enough for you baseboard loop, you might consider a balancing valve.
The circ on your mixing loop needs to be in the mixing loop. The way you have drawn it, the circ will dead head as soon as the loop comes up to temp. All circulation will stop.
As Chris mentioned, do not put 90's and tees near the inlet side of the circs. I think the rule is 12 pipe diameters. In your case that would be 9".
Don't worry about the 100 degree rise from everhot. That is just the number they are using for their gpm calcs. Gpm x delta t x 500 =btu/hrs will alway be the formula. They are basing their gpm on a delta t of 100 . This is for dhw production.. Your design will be different since you are using it for heating.
@ July 19, 2013 9:49 AM in Concrete Slab, pavers or bricks under Mod/Con BoilerFor the indirect and the expansion tank, why not just use pavers? Even if the basement flooded with a foot of water, there would be little chance of permanent damage.
As for the boiler, mount it on the wall. Many of the systems destroyed by flooding would have done fine if the boiler was mounted 3 feet off the floor. It also cleans up the boiler room and makes servicing a pleasure.
@ July 19, 2013 9:43 AM in flashing for ribbed metal roofI would be reluctant to attach a solar panel the the roof metal only. Roofs with exposed screws have holes in them anyway. The screws tend to elongate the holes in the metal as the panels expand and contract, creating a weak connection.
Standing seam roofs just have clips to hold the panels down, the panels are, by design allowed to slip up and down the roof.
I have seen ice dams pull entire metal sheets off roofs. Severe winds are also a concern. In new construction, mounting points that are bolted to framing and flashed into the roof work well. For retrofits, I would worry far more about securing the panel than leakage. Some of those connectors will work with lighter PV panels in forgiving climates. For heavier water filled panels I would only bolt directly to the framing.
@ July 17, 2013 11:58 PM in Replacement boiler sizingA heat loss will tell you how much energy your house is losing to the outdoors on the coldest design day for you climate. This is the starting point for sizing your boiler. Given what you have said, your max heat loss is in the mid 30kbtu range.
Another consideration, particularly since you are interested in fast recovery from a temp setback is how much available radiation you have (size of your radiators). A 73 kbtu boiler that cycles off 30% of the time at full load is likely about 30% oversized to the radiation. Even if you were to put in a million btu boiler, it would not heat the house any faster than a 50kbtu model.
I would suggest a smaller firetube modcon boiler. They have onboard outdoor reset which maximizes efficiency. I also would minimize your setbacks.
I like triangle tube and lochinvar. Dan has been impressed with the new Utica SSC. I think it is worth a look.
@ July 17, 2013 2:57 PM in Taco ZVC404-EXP ProblemsMark,
Depending on the size of your circ and how it is piped you may not need the end switches at all. In your case the end switches insure the valve is open before the circ turns on. This prevents the circ from "dead heading". If it determined this is not a concern (if you have a bipass loop or a grundfos alpha circ) you could jumper terminal 3 and 4 and be done with it.
Thanks for the info on the valve. I did not know that.
@ July 17, 2013 8:38 AM in Problem with Burnham Revolution Gas Fired Low pressure Boiler system Model RV4NSL-L2Did the guy who replaced your T&P (temperature and pressure) check your expansion tank? It seems far more likely that you have a waterlogged expansion tank rather than a failure of multiple controls. If the tank is waterlogged, the pressure in the system will build as the boiler heats up eventually discharging water through the t&p. You should be able to tap on the tank to get a general idea of it's condition. If it sounds like it is full of water,it is the likely culprit.
The OP also has some interesting info. Burnham certainly designed themselves into a corner on that one. Thank you TIM for your sometime thankless efforts.