Joined on January 19, 2012
Last Post on December 11, 2013
@ September 15, 2012 9:16 AM in sizing circulatorIt looks like you would be in the range of the grundfos magna http://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/magna-upe/_jcr_content/tabbedpanel/brochures/par2/downloads/download_0/file/file.res/~8189020.pdf
Those 400' radiant loops are going to be a killer. The near boiler piping are also going to be a factor. Are you piped primary secondary? What type of boiler is it?What are the designed flow of your radiant loops and how many do you have?
Your supply house likely has software and someone who can run the numbers.
@ September 15, 2012 12:14 AM in WOMAN NEEDS HELP-Forced Air Heating ChallengeMost furnaces have a troubleshooting section in the owners manual. Some have lights or digital displays which indicate what the problem is. A bad ignitor is certainly a likely cause of you problem but there are several other equally likely causes. I would take some time to download the manual and see if it is something simple. As with many electronic devices. It never hurts to turn it off for a few minutes and restart it.
@ September 14, 2012 10:52 PM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinningRadiant is not inherently more or less efficient than convective. A BTU of energy that moves from fuel to water to slab to air, Is no different than one that goes directly from fuel to air. You tend to "feel" warmer with radiant allowing the actual room temp to be lowered.
In your application if you assume the efficiency of the appliance is the same ie an 80% efficient gas fan unit compared to an 80% gas hot water boiler. The overall efficiency should be pretty close. I would expect the radiant would be slightly less efficient due to the tendency of high mass slabs to overshoot the target temp.It is just hard to stop the heat gain momentum as the outdoor temp warms. The heat has been applied to the slab an want to warm the air whether you need it or not.
The same would be true for electric.
To compare propane to electric, post your local rates.
@ September 14, 2012 9:12 AM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinning4 loops at 250 will work fine. They will probably end up closer together than 12", not a bad thing.I don't like to see loops longer than that as it begins to effect flow rates.
The electric vs. propane question would require some more info. Post your cost per gallon and KW and I can tell you.I am fairly sure price difference will be slight.
@ September 14, 2012 9:05 AM in Pumps vs Zone ValvesI don't know of a zone pump small enough for your loads. You are going to use an incredible amount of energy with 9 pumps.
You should have someone look at your exact requirements, My first thought is a grundfos alpha with zone valves.
I know you didn't ask... Your boiler is to big! Given your small zones and low temp radiation, you would do very well with a smaller mod/con boiler. The high turn down ratio of the mod/con will allow you long efficient burn cycles. Mod/cons love low temps.
The thing to do is have a heat loss calculation done and size your boiler correctly.
@ September 14, 2012 12:32 AM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinningGordy makes a good point that we all need to be more thorough when posting.It can also be a problem with clients
For the reasons previously described, If it were my garage, I would do the following;
Insulate the structure well
Install a quality insulated garage door and windows
Install a heater like this one http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Electric-Utility-Heater-3UG73?Pid=search on a low temp thermostat
Save a bunch of money
If you want a future infloor option, install your 1/2" tubing in 4 loops of about 200 feet. 12 inch spacing should work fine. It will perform best with 2" ridged insulation underneath and should be suspended so it is centered in the slab.
It is rare for the guys on here to try to talk people out of radiant. It is a great product, maybe not for your application.
@ September 13, 2012 9:46 AM in Conventional or Indirect HW heaterGary thanks for the additional detail. I was a bit rushed in my response. I too like t-stat mixing valves. They are great for stabilizing todays high recovery DHW tanks and work well in the legionella battle.The potential for scalding is also eliminated.
@ September 13, 2012 9:35 AM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinningI also like to keep my garage around 40- 50 degrees.It costs very little to keep an insulated building at this temp. If I am working on evening or weekend projects, I turn it up to 65. You cannot do this with infloor. It would take a day or more and it would likely overshoot your target. Most people I know with infloor garages end up keeping the temps higher, thus using more energy. Unless it is a full time workplace or you are trying to melt snow off vehicles You are going to spend 2 or 3 times the money for infloor, then fire up a salamander? I don't see the logic.
Just my opinion,
@ September 13, 2012 8:45 AM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinningA nice infloor system with a high efficiency boiler will use less fuel than other options. It will also react very slowly, and have high install costs. A less expensive infloor system with a hotwater heater or electric boiler will not offer any savings in efficiency. Look at the efficiency ratings on the appliances. I love infloor heat but would not install it in your application, even if money was no object.
@ September 13, 2012 8:30 AM in trainagle tubes new prestigeThe prestige works as advertised. The interface is easier than the old one. Hopefully the homeowner won't get to curious as you can change quite a bit without an access code.
I used it to set up 2 slightly different low temp curves for different zones and it seems to be working well. I am doing one next week for a 2 zone hot water baseboard system. The zones have different heat losses (one in the basement).I am planning on having a different curve for each zone.
I like your 2 stage idea. Let us know how it works.
@ September 13, 2012 12:04 AM in Supplement heat for window wall.I have considering a fan coil for this application. It would improve response times and allow the floors to stay cooler, reducing "overshoot" during the day.
I have looked at the beacon morris kickspace heater. I think they will be to loud.
A Unico system may be overkill.
@ September 12, 2012 9:37 PM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinningWhy do you want to put radiant in a garage? I don't see any advantages.
I don't think you could buy the parts to do the job "wrong" with your budget. You certainly can't do a quality install.
@ September 12, 2012 9:02 AM in Installing Radiant in my garage, I have a bunch of ? head is spinningFirst of all "insultarp" is not a very good product for radiant. The r-values advertised are not true r-values. I my area it is not allowed by code.Use rigid insulation.
I don't think your garage is a very good candidate for in floor radiant. The install cost is going to be quite high and you won't be able to just turn up the temp to work on that one project. Given your lack of available water and the potential for freezing, I would reconsider.
The least expensive solution would be electric fan coil heaters, although they are more expensive to run.
A gas fired heater, like the Modine "hot dog" would also be a good choice.
@ September 12, 2012 8:40 AM in Noisy AlphaGordon,
I think you got a bad one. I have never heard the noise you are describing from an alpha circulator. Now alpha people are a different story. They make that noise all the time.
@ September 12, 2012 12:15 AM in BTUs of Natural Gas?That looks correct. It seams kind of strange to figure volumes of gas because it depends on an assumed pressure. Using therms for ng and gallons for lpg works better for Me.
Be sure to figure in the efficiency of the appliances if you are doing an upgrade.
@ September 12, 2012 12:00 AM in Conventional or Indirect HW heaterPlumbers like 1 for 1 replacements. Many do not understand boiler systems. I am guessing that the guy who recommended an indirect does more heating.
You boiler will heat water at 84% efficiency through an indirect. The water heater you have is likely in the 60's.
Gary made some excellent recommendations, I would also suggest DHW priority and an adjustable temp differential to assure long efficient cycles.
@ September 11, 2012 11:48 PM in PJHIt sounds like the damage has been done. I don't think you can repair it with sealant. It might work as a temporary "band aid". It may clog your system and create other problems.
The high temp in your system is the biggest enemy of the orange tubing. I pulled 20 year old entran 2 out of a remodel this spring. It looked brand new. It never saw temps over 130 degrees.
Be careful, I can hear it now "it was hardly leaking before you got here".
@ September 11, 2012 10:57 PM in Radiant Heat, Pex Suppleir, Parts, Outdoor Boiler Insulated LineTry firstname.lastname@example.org
@ September 11, 2012 8:23 AM in Radiant ZonesIt is hard to give you an answer with out a drawing or more details. Why are you doing 5 separate pumps and mixing valves? Are they just simple fixed temp valves? Are you planning on outdoor reset? A mod/con boiler would handle this all easily and save you operating costs as well. I am adding up the cost of all these pumps,valves and labor and wonder if you have thought this design all the way through.
@ September 10, 2012 8:05 PM in BTUs of Natural Gas?The easiest way to get where you are going is to use the attached spreadsheet and convert everything to price per million btu output. You put in you local market pricing and efficiency of the appliance and viola.
@ September 8, 2012 11:26 AM in Supplement heat for window wall.Mark,
Thanks for your insight. My only reservation about the siggy option is it is to close to the floor.
Nice windows! Can they retrofit?
@ September 8, 2012 10:28 AM in Supplement heat for window wall.
I am working on a home with an existing radiant floor system. The floors are 3/8" pex at 12" OC imbedded in 1 1/2" gypcrete with 3/4" engineered hardwood.I have run a heat loss and am comfortable that on average the floor panels will adequately heat the room.
The room is very open with ceilings that vault from 12 to 20 feet. The southwest wall is mostly glass starting 30" off the floor. The glass in this area is on average 12' tall and takes up most of a 22' long wall. The glazing loss of this wall is about 12,000 btu.The 30" wall below the window will house an automatic "down blind". The wall has been firred in 6" to accommodate. The design temp for the system is is 140 degree.The controls will be tekmar tn4. The windows have the worst possible exposure, 9,500 feet on a cliff with tons of wind.
My concerns are;
The area in front of this wall will have a radiant cooling effect.
The heat loss will create convective cooling air flow as the cold air falls.
The floors in the surrounding area will overheat to compensate creating uncomfortable conditions.
The room will underperform at night and overshoot during the day.
The options I have thought of are;
Attach a low mass panel radiator to the front of the wall sized for the entire loss.This would provide radiant and convective heat. I am not sure I can sell the owner on this look.
Turn the front of the wall into wall radiant system "siggy's design" generating 60 btu/foot, it would produce about 3,300 btu radiant.
Turn the inside of the wall into a giant baseboard heater. I would use 2 copper fintubes like the ones installed in baseboards the entire length.I would need a slot in the top and bottom of the wall. I am unsure of the size of these slots but thought I could copy the design of a baseboard heater.I am not sure how much convective heat this would produce my SWAG is 6,000-8,000 btu for 40 feet. of fintube.Maybe some little computer cooling fans could raise the output?