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Zman

Zman

Joined on January 19, 2012

Last Post on August 26, 2014

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primary/secondary?

@ May 19, 2013 12:08 AM in TT110 Trimax control question

Could you confirm the piping under the boiler. The TT110 would normally be piped primarily/secondary using the factory circ. Is the factory circ still installed (inside the cabinet)? A picture of that piping would be helpful.
Carl

Misdemeanors and Felonies

@ May 18, 2013 11:46 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

Your system has tons of misdemeanors. Pumping into the expansion tank, lack of isolation valves, how about support for the pipes and wires. I agree with heatpro on these. It is ugly but not worth fixing. Pumping backwards through a boiler, especially a Mod Con is a felony.It will absolutely wrong and is will reduce the life and efficiency of the boiler. The closely spaced Tees are also backwards. The good news is that the fix is to flip the circulator.
It could be an optical illusion, based on the pics, it looks backwards.
Carl

Backwards

@ May 18, 2013 8:18 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

It looks like the supply and return on the primary (boiler ) loop is backwards. I am surprised the boiler controller would allow this as the temp sensors would not read correctly.

Ideally the zone circs should be pumping away from the expansions tank.

You said it runs fine? No air or velocity noise issues?

Carl

Pressure Drop

@ May 18, 2013 6:25 PM in is it a problem connecting a larger gas pipe to a smaller gas pipe?

Gas line should be sized based on the allowable pressure drop in your system. I think the standard chart allows 1/2" total drop.
As previously posted you start with bigger pipes and reduce the size as the load decreases.
To do your system right, you need to map out what size and length pipe you have and compare that to the ratings of the attached appliances. It may be that you can easily add the additional heater using 1/2" line and have no problems. If you don't do the math you will likely end up with appliances malfunctioning due to pressure fluctuations.
As far as increasing the the pipe size, it won't hurt anything. It doesn't make the job look very professional. Is there a reason for not hiring a pro and doing it right?
Carl

More pics

@ May 18, 2013 2:15 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

If you could post some more pics. Farther away and from different angles. Also note which way the arrows on the circs are pointed.
It is definitely wrong, it is a question of how wrong.
Carl

SPAM

@ May 15, 2013 8:38 AM in Gas pipe size

SPAM SPAM SPAM oh wonderful spam

No Ads

@ May 15, 2013 8:36 AM in can stainless steel de-alloy? Perry

Shinestar,
I am sure your commercial pipe is wonderful.
Please look at the forum rules NO ADS
There is no need to dig up 10 year old threads for the sake of SPAM

Check Valve

@ May 14, 2013 8:53 AM in Another triangle tube install question

I asked the triangle tube guys why they don't just use a circ with a check valve, They said they were not as durable. I have done it quite a few times and have never had a problem. I don't know where to buy them.Since most grudnfos circs that size come with them and they often are not needed, I usually has a few laying around. You might try calling grundfos or your contractor, It is not a big deal to sweat one in, it is just much easier to unbolt the circ and snap it in.
Carl

You got it

@ May 13, 2013 11:06 PM in Time to choose a boiler

Now for the fun part.  About 95% of the installers will  look at you like you are nuts. First the head will turn to the side like a curious puppy. They will then start explaining how long they have been doing it their way.
The guy you are looking for will  get a huge smile on his face and tell you how much he likes an informed customer.

Carl

110?

@ May 13, 2013 8:36 AM in Another triangle tube install question

The tt 110. with the factory installed circ does not have a check valve in the circ. This will cause major ghost flow to the secondary. Some of that is going out your returns. If this is the case, the easiest thing to do is to snap a grunfos check valve into the boiler circ.
Carl

Cars

@ May 12, 2013 12:31 AM in Do you agree that heating systems with less use last longer?

I think it is kind of like cars. A 1980 buick with 50,000 miles is better than a 1980 buick with 250,000. It is still a 1980 buick and will still require maintenance.

You favor a strategy of multiple heating appliances. It is fun to have a bunch of cars but in the end, It costs more money to purchase and maintain them all. In the end they will all need to be replaced.

Firetube HX

@ May 12, 2013 12:24 AM in Time to choose a boiler

I would consider triangle tube or lochinvar.
It doesn't make much sense to put  heat under cabinets.
Once you get a heat loss number per room, figure out how much tubing and plates you need per room.
As far as manifolds go, If you design your system right with careful balancing and equal loops, You should be able to go with a simple manufactured  copper manifold. You can buy a manifold with gauges and valves, they cost more but are not needed if you do it right.

Spin

@ May 12, 2013 12:02 AM in Triangle tube and taco sr 506

Sorry about your head.  Some off these posts go pretty deep.
Yes, you should able to wire one t-stat and one circulator directly to the boiler.
You might be surprised how low you can run your hot loops. It will take a bit of experimenting.
Carl

Pretty simple

@ May 11, 2013 8:28 PM in Old System to new

Using a triangle tube 60 with no domestic water there is not much to design.
You can pretty much go by the diagrams in the installation manual.
Sizing the heat size circulator will take some consideration. Do you know what was installed before.

Carl

Different strokes

@ May 11, 2013 12:16 PM in Triangle tube and taco sr 506

Your drawing is a simple solution. It has the opposite disadvantages to my solution. If limited high temp performance is not an issue,it should work fine.

I have had good luck with powered mixing valves. I  also see an advantage to single appliances and indirect tanks.

This is what I like about The Wall. There is more than one right way. Always learning....

Carl

Boiler gage

@ May 11, 2013 12:02 PM in No hot water unless calling for heat

What is the boiler temp during all this.
It should be pretty easy to figure out if you have a boiler control issue or a mixing valve issue. Since it worked in the winter, I am guessing it is control related.
Sounds like you domestic aquastat it incorrectly wired or set. Possibly malfunctioning.
Carl

Crack

@ May 11, 2013 11:55 AM in Triangle tube and taco sr 506

Heatpro,
I was hoping you would see the humor in the crack comment. I will let you know if I find some.
My point was you could have some control over the low temp utilizing the existing valves. When the high temp loop is calling, the only low temp control you would have would be a fixed maximum temp. Not ideal, but inexpensive.

I think Chris offered a decent budget solution with the I valve.

In my opinion the absolute best alternative would be to use a Tekmar TN4 system.
We recently did one that had a tekmar 423 controlling 2 modulating boilers. It can control up to 4 mixing valves at 4 different setpoints. The boilers will always be running at the lowest possible temp and the floor temps are dead on.

I am still boggled by the flat plate solution. You don't need to isolate the loops, you just need to control the temp. An automatic mixing valve or injection pump setup is much simpler.

I agree that triangle tube missed the ball on this one. I wonder if lochinvar has a solution on their firetube.

Carl

Checklist

@ May 11, 2013 9:18 AM in Time to choose a boiler

Find qualified installer  Absolutely


Do heat loss analysis for proper boiler sizing Yes, Heat loss will also help you determine the tube spacing and how many plates you need in each room Not all rooms will have the same loss. Not all rooms need the same amount of radiation.


choose boiler with good warranty, easy to find parts, good technical support Not sure how slant fin made the list, how long has that exchanger been in the field? A good warranty is one thing. Knowing you will never need it.... Priceless.


Stainless steel heat exchanger over aluminum. Yes Firetube over Giovanni also

Read installation manual and  require installer to install as per specs Yes



Must have digital combustion analyzer Yes

Set up/tweak low & high fire CO2 specs-verify specs YES


ad surge protector breaker for boiler Depends, The TT trimax has that covered. I watched a demo where they turned it down to 80 volts and it still ran perfectly.


Is super store OK for the indirect HW holding tank? That is a good one, Heatflo is also nice.



Anything I'm missing?  The  function of the aluminum plates is that they tranfer the heat to the floor faster. This allows the the boiler to run at lower temps and much more efficiently (because it is condensing). Make sure you get the right tubing. Pex-al-pex is nice for your application. Any Pex-a product will also work well. An O2 barrier is a must

Double check the propane conversion. Some boiler are more difficult than others. If memory serves me, The tt110 can be converted from propane to Nat. gas but not the other way. There are a few anomalies out there so double check when in doubt.

Carl

Like it or not....

@ May 10, 2013 10:24 PM in Polypropylene vents becoming the way to go

Say what you will, This is coming. The triangle tube rep explained this to me a few years back. The PVC manufacture don't want the liability. They never designed the pipe for this. Triangle Tube feels that the PVC is having a corrosive effect on the boilers. That is why they changed the internal exhaust stack and condensate collection pan from stainless to PP on the new boiler.
Don't shoot the messenger this has been brewing for a while.
Carl

mixing

@ May 10, 2013 10:17 PM in Triangle tube and taco sr 506

Your mixing valves are thermostatic. They will always adjust to the same temp no matter how hot the primary loop is.If you install another relay to get a separate TT for CH2 it will work great as a 2 temp fixed temp system. The outdoor reset will not function optimally. The high temp will work great. The low temp will be pegged at the max temp set on the mixing valve anytime the high temp loop is calling. This is the simplest way without repiping.

Triangle tube had an add on for the old controller that would control a mixing valve as Chris is describing, it might be worth a call to tech support. Otherwise Chris's Ivalve solution would work pretty slick.

Heatpro, are you talking about a plate exchanger and a separate closed loop with it's own expansion and all the fixings, just to lower the temp in one loop? If so, please put down the crack pipe. If not, oops, never mind the crack comment, please explain.

Carl

Yup

@ May 10, 2013 8:21 PM in Old System to new

So, what do need us for. It sounds like you a have solid grasp on this.
I think your heat loss calc is a bit high. It is kind irrelevant as the boilers don't come that small.
I think using the outdoor reset function on the boiler will improve comfort and efficiency greatly.
You might consider putting remote zone valves and t-stats in place of the isolation valves in some of the rooms. If the system is well balanced now you may not need to.
The triangle tube is a great choice.
Carl

Heat loss

@ May 10, 2013 5:07 PM in Time to choose a boiler

As said before.
Absolutely a heat loss is needed.
You need some means of dispersing the heat whether it is a slab or heat transfer plates.
As for the boiler. I would look at the type of exchanger. Also look at the company. Are the a copper fin or cast iron company that also does condensing boilers. Or do they specialize in condensing.
Carl
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