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Zman

Zman

Joined on January 19, 2012

Last Post on April 24, 2014

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I would...

@ March 21, 2012 11:31 AM in indirect

I would go with a larger indirect before I would mess with an electric. Low flow heads is always a good place to start, some offer "massaging" features that may help people overlook the reduction in flow. I would pay close attention to boiler condensing. A large indirect could easily drag a boiler that size into a condensing temp range.

Great plan

@ March 21, 2012 11:25 AM in Adding 220 sq ft radiant to existing system

I was thinking the same thing and saw Rob's post. You could probably go as thin as 1". Any medium weight concrete should do, just don't use anything lightweight as it will insulate.I would just pick up some regular concrete mix and do it on site. Be sure to use pex with an O2 barrier. It sounds like you could do it with a 300' roll. You will get much better performance if you do two loops of 150' as opposed to one longer loop, 300' will technically work.

I have concerns

@ March 20, 2012 12:53 PM in Adding 220 sq ft radiant to existing system

I think the response time is a concern. I also am not certain the air space is big enough. How will you secure the tubes so it doesn't sound like snakes under the floor?
The idea of sections of warm floor is good. You could also figure out a way to retrofit joist trak.
It sounds like you could control it with a zone circulator. If you post a picture of the boiler piping it would help
Carl

Indirect

@ March 19, 2012 10:59 PM in indirect

I am thinking an indirect would be a good plan. Your existing tank is probably 50K to 75K BTU at 65% efficiency giving you 32,500 to 48,750 btu. Your cast Iron is likely 80% efficiency giving you about 80,000 Btu. If you did an 80 gallon indirect you would be all set. I would control it with DHW priority and be sure it is piped or controlled to prevent boiler condensing.
Carl

What kind of response?

@ March 19, 2012 5:15 PM in Lochinvar Knight boiler problems

What kind of response are you getting from the Installation contractor?
I don't think this setup will ever work correctly.
The Boiler should likely be a 165K
The Fresh air is absolutely wrong
The piping is incorrect
The heating pump is ridiculously oversized (it is pumping 60+ gpm when you need about 10 to 15 gpm)
The crazy thing is they spent about 10k extra just in parts oversizing your system.
I think I would start looking at the consumer protection laws in your area. I wonder if Lochinvar would be willing to verify that this system is incorrectly installed in order to give you some leverage.

Details

@ March 19, 2012 4:52 PM in indirect

What is heating the existing tank? Is the existing 102K boiler for his heat system? What type of boiler?  Any idea of the flow rate on the shower valves? What temp is the water entering the building (or what region are you in)?

70 degrees?

@ March 19, 2012 4:28 PM in Question about Delta-T circulators.

How are you heating the room with supply temps lower than 70?  Even if you are only heating the room to 65 and you have a ton of surface area the floor target would have to be at least 70. At the coolest the return water would be 70 and the supply water 80.In my opinion you are just wasting circulator energy by going that low.

4'

@ March 16, 2012 4:50 PM in Attaching Solar to 12" SIP Panels

If the SIP's are spanning a long distance they are often reinforced with microlam's. The reinforcement would be at 4' centers and sandwiched between the panels running along the long side. Measure 4' from the top or bottom and see if you find one. Even if the micro is not there the plywood should be doubled. Always use a large diameter fastener and find the perfect size predrill to get the best hold on ply and osb.
Carl

Are you talking about?

@ March 15, 2012 11:55 PM in Navien Combi Boiler

Are you talking about delta T at the boiler? With primary secondary the delta T at the boiler is not the same as the heat loop. I just walked down to the boiler room. I have one small slab calling. The heating loop delta T was 12 ans the boiler said 2. The boiler loop has 6x the flow of the heating loop. I wonder if someday the boiler will vary the speed of the boiler pump to match the load and optimize efficiency?
Carl

Sounds Like

@ March 15, 2012 10:56 AM in Kitchen Drain Waste Heat Recovery

It sounds like the architect is trying to justify having a snow melt system be saying it is powered by waste water. This does make him sound very clever, The amount of energy that will ever melt snow is a small fraction of the energy this system could put into the DHW. The DHW system is as simple as it gets, the snowmelt couldn't be more complex. I think the circulators and controls will produce more energy for heat than will the waste water.

Good for DHW

@ March 14, 2012 10:58 PM in Kitchen Drain Waste Heat Recovery

I think this is a good idea for DHW. As the cold water is pulled into the house it is pre-heated by the waste water leaving the house. There is no need for storage as the 2 events will nearly always happen at the same time.
Snow melt is another issue. There might be enough energy to "idle" the slab some of the time. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to melt snow. How would it be controlled? Maybe they could wait to wash the dishes until it snows? I think this system is best for DHW

Good for DHW

@ March 14, 2012 10:58 PM in Kitchen Drain Waste Heat Recovery

I think this is a good idea for DHW. As the cold water is pulled into the house it is pre-heated by the waste water leaving the house. There is no need for storage as the 2 events will nearly always happen at the same time.
Snow melt is another issue. There might be enough energy to "idle" the slab some of the time. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to melt snow. How would it be controlled? Maybe they could wait to wash the dishes until it snows? I think this system is best for DHW

What do you have?

@ March 14, 2012 6:37 PM in Indirect water heater question...

What kind of water heater do you have now? It should have a BTU input rating and the gallons it stores. Does it keep up?

What size is your Boiler? It should have a BTU input plate on it. What area of the country are you in? Do you have hot water baseboard heaters?

What kind of exchanger

@ March 14, 2012 6:28 PM in Kitchen Drain Waste Heat Recovery

What type of exchanger is he proposing? I wonder if the exchange could happen after an oil separator. The owner definitely needs to be by on board with the maintenance.

Thanks ME

@ March 14, 2012 10:44 AM in Inexpensive Aquastat

Mark,
Those look perfect. Any ideas on protecting the line voltage wiring?
Presently the garage boiler is always on and always circulating through the coils for the entire heating season. The fan coils have individual thermostats which are initially set around 50 degrees. Over the course of the season the residents seem to "adjust" them individually. Yesterday the garage averaged 60 degrees.
My plan is to wire the aquastat in series with the existing thermostat in order to give some local control. I was thinking about using one or two tekmar 150 setpoint controllers mounted in the boiler room with remote sensors in the center of the garage. Additionally I plan on using a tekmar 261 to do a slight outdoor reset (noncondensing boiler) and to set the WWSD feature quite low.
I am a little concerned about condensing the boiler on startup. It is piped primary/secondary and has signifacant system volume. The Boiler is an older copper fin with fairly low mass. The heating loop is hundreds of feet of 2" to 3" pipe. I had thought about controlling the system pump with an aquastat on the boiler, making it run only when the boiler is up to temp. I suspect this stategy will make the system pump surge on and off. Perhaps an aquastat with a wide differential will help with this?
Thoughts?
Carl

14

@ March 14, 2012 6:58 AM in Inexpensive Aquastat

SWEI, Yes 14 aquastats. The units are about 50 feet apart.
Steamhead, You are probably right. It is one of those products that I have seen as an OEM part, but never at a supply house.
Thanks
Carl

Inexpensive Aquastat

@ March 13, 2012 11:51 PM in Inexpensive Aquastat

I am looking to change the controlling of 14 garage hydronic unit heaters. I want to make the fans operate only when the boiler is firing. I could use a typical strap on aquastat with full range of adjustment, this option is getting expensive. I have seen fixed temp strap on switches on kickspace heaters and even a few boilers. These look very similar to HVAC "snap disc "controls. I will be running line voltage so a protective box will be necessary.
Thank you for your input.

Outdoor reset

@ March 11, 2012 10:31 PM in Lochinvar Knight MRHL Lockout

Vinny,
Look at the graph on page 22.
The ends of the graph are determined by F1,F2,F3,F4 for curve SH-1 and F1,F2,F8,F9 for SH-2. The computer in your controller calculates the correct boiler temp based on the actual outdoor temperature. As an example based the numbers I suggest(and your low temp day of 10') below the computer would calculate about 130 degrees on a 32 degree day.



By changing the setpoint (B1 and B2)you are just squashing the upper end of the curve, you are not changing the curve.(see the dashed line on the graph)



If it were mine I would start with this:



F1 = lowest outdoor temperature seen in a typical year

F2= 65'

F3 and F8 = 160'

F4 and F9 = 100'

B1 and B2 =160'

I would leave the differential and the offset at default.

Once you set it up, If you find you are not getting the desired results
at higher outdoor temps adjust F4 and F9. If your trouble is at lower
outdoor temps adjust F3 and F8. The beauty of you system is you can
adjust on a zone by zone basis, ie adjust F3 but not F8

Hope this helps,
Carl

Outdoor reset

@ March 11, 2012 9:07 PM in Lochinvar Knight MRHL Lockout

Vinny,
that sounds pretty good. On your boiler the setpoint B(1)is not the same as the top of your curve (F3).
The only setting I would absolutely change is  B4 (B9). to at least 100.
The warm weather end of you curve will not perform at all in the 70's with hot water baseboard.
Carl

Outdoor reset

@ March 10, 2012 10:28 PM in Lochinvar Knight MRHL Lockout

What are the settings that I mentioned in a previous post. Changing the setpoints does not change the curve. It just flattens the top if it.

There is way

@ March 9, 2012 6:19 PM in Buffer Addition

I think P1 an P 2 need to move outside the boiler loop. I better check the books before I say something stupid

sensor

@ March 9, 2012 5:10 PM in Lochinvar Knight MRHL Lockout

Vinny,
The tube with the label goes into a "well" in the bottom of you tank. It has a bulb on the end of it and it is removable. The new sensor will go inside the well in place of the old one. You may have to remove a nut or a clip to get it out. I can't tell from you picture.
Carl
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