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Joined on December 15, 2012

Last Post on September 9, 2014

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Internal Pump

@ September 9, 2014 7:34 AM in confused?? or is this correct too?

I think it's because the internal pump is pushing through the heat exchanger and then out to the supply. If you were to put the air separator on the supply and then tie the expansion tank in there it would knock down the PSI at that point to whatever the expansion tank is set for and you may not have enough psi to circulate properly. It works well to put it on the return. This would only be on the non primary secondary piping.

I 2nd that...

@ September 1, 2014 6:51 AM in Is buying a used threader risky?

Mad Dog and I are in total agreement, both my machines are ridgid and all hand units are as well. All bought used, all I did was clean them up thoroughly and been doing work with them ever since.

Our Local Natural Gas Company...

@ August 16, 2014 7:11 PM in Gas Piping - teflon tape

doesn't want teflon on any gas pipe unless its yellow. They say in some scenarios excess internal teflon in the pipe can find its way into the gas valve not allowing it to close. I don't fully agree but I follow along with their preference so I don't get a verbal lashing, and while thoroughly ravaged, have to redo it.

I use gasoila, never heard of pro dope will look for it next time.

Not detailed oriented

@ July 23, 2014 5:50 AM in Rinnai E50C

Snowmelt is right, I looked at the Navien but never noticed the down fire ratings. It's a possibility. Now it's price and if it will run on the current gas line. I will look into both today. The room its going in is only 3' x 3' so no boiler tank options.

Any thoughts on like a bradford white atmospheric vented with heating coil? I have never installed one but am curious if it would do the trick.

Price and BTU

@ July 22, 2014 4:24 PM in Rinnai E50C

Naviens are a bit more money and BTU's are much higher than I need. Even after modulating down it will probably short cycle on heat mode.


@ July 22, 2014 1:57 PM in Rinnai E50C

I am pulling the super problematic LAARS because of the lack of sufficient gas and quality of combustion air causing multiple units to lockout several times a day. I want to know if this E50C needs as much gas the on demands, seeing that it also has a 3/4 gas input.

I don't want any problems from these units after a week or two of running if you know what I mean, I basically want to make sure I install correctly so they don't haunt me.

Rinnai E50C

@ July 21, 2014 7:47 PM in Rinnai E50C

Anyone install any of these units yet? The project I am trying to get a handle on is this:

13 Condos all around 800 sqft and currently there are Laars Endurance EDP 110's in place which are way oversized as we all know. Also the units are getting their combustion air from the basement I believe and some have the stainless venting running up and out the sidewall and others go straight up through the roof. It's only a single bath and they are mostly just vacation homes. The down side is the LP feeds are 1/2" csst. Everyone unit struggles with Lock Outs all the time and they wanna change to something much less problematic.

My thinking is possibly a gas fired water heater with heating coil and atmospheric vented since it's in place. The other idea is the Rinnai E50C. Any ideas would be good, the heat loss is under 20K and there is a gas fire place that could cover the unit for heat but doesn't really heat the bedrooms, and the baseboard is already in place so hydronic heat makes sense.


@ July 12, 2014 6:59 AM in Mod/con poll. Installers only.

I am probably an over explainer, but I like customers to be informed and make the best decision possible with their money. Same way I like to be treated when embarking on an unknown purchase.

If they get hung up and can't choose and want my input I tend to go with what I would do if it was my own home.

Thanks Dan

@ July 12, 2014 6:56 AM in Suggestions for new forum

The Vanilla forum functions look great. This forum is a little dated, but it has really helped me. There is nothing like finding this forum joining with the attitude of "Wait til I teach them a few things" and having a humility check!! It was awesome and humbling, a lot of very smart guys on this forum.


@ June 11, 2014 10:49 AM in Baxi HT 380


The process of making DHW is separate from making CH or heating, especially on a Baxi. My thinking is you have a different problem perhaps something is calling for heat when it shouldn't be. The easy fix is to set the switch on the front of the unit to the sun symbol, it's probably on the snowflake currently. This is considered the summer setting, which turns off all space heating. Just don't forget to swap it back this fall.

Thanks Guys

@ May 28, 2014 7:32 AM in Grundfos MQ Booster

Ice and Zman,

Thanks for the helpful info, I will try the recommendations. These customers are "eccentric" both are very nice, wealthy, and have almost no common sense. Like I said I came to this project very late and was only suppose to trim the new shower with the new brush copper trim. I did that, while I was there he showed me his new Grundfos MQ 3-45 and asked I would put that on the 3/4" hot line that feeds the shower? I said no not possible for many reasons, I showed him the max incoming temp explained the balancing aspect of shower valves, etc and he agreed. Then he asked me to put it on directly after the expansion tank, I said why dont I bump up the pressure switch and add pressure to the tank to compensate then you use the shower a few weeks and tell me if it's better. He agreed, it's currently at 50-70 and he said it's not enough.

I can easily walk away from this, but was curious if that style pump could be installed after the expansion tank. Sounds like no, so I will let them know that the answer is no. I am curious if this might be a different problem as Ice suggested, I will test pressures all over the house and check. BTW this is a first floor shower, it's being fed with 3/4" copper and was probably very nice back in the day. I did let the homeowner know that if he ever thinks he's going to renovate anything water related again he should bring in the plumber much earlier if for nothing else to avoid this type of problem.

Sorta on board with you

@ May 25, 2014 1:07 PM in Grundfos MQ Booster


It's a drilled well with a submersible pump, it's feeding the house with 4 full baths with 1' pipe. During his newest renovation this customer spent 10K on tile and labor but neglected to replace the dual Moen Chateau shower valves one that feed a rainmaker and the other feeds a hand rail. He also decided no glass door which means his wife feels cold unless the entire bathroom is filled with steam. The valves aren't junk but not what I spec when I do a new shower like this. I like to feed rainmakers with 3/4 and typically do 3/4 thermostatic valves and volume controls. I was not brought into this project until after the tile was done and now it's not going to change. My thought is the same as yours just walkaway, but was curious if I could come off the expansion with a regulator which ensures the proper psi to the booster and then pipe to the booster from there feed the rest of the system just so there is a less noticeable pressure drop as you typically have with well systems.

Grundfos MQ Booster

@ May 25, 2014 7:44 AM in Grundfos MQ Booster

Hey Guys,

I have a customer who has purchased this pump online to bump his PSI from the 70 he's getting now to 90psi. I explained that the problem is not the current pump and expansion but the super cheap shower valves he did not want to change during his remodel. Regardless, I was hoping I could find someone who can tell me if this style pump will work installed with a well and a pump in it and expansion tank.

Can this pump be put on after the expansion tank just to boost the pressure as the customer wants?


@ May 22, 2014 6:42 AM in Lead Free

I have been dealing with lead free fittings in Vt for a few years now, I had the same problem as you. I changed Flux brands and everything is good. Though I have found if there is any part that is unclean it will leak, it seems there is no room for error when it comes to these lead free fittings. I hope there is some health benefits to changing over to this new code because it's such a pain.

Was just hoping...

@ May 11, 2014 8:04 PM in Heat Loss discrepancy

That someone could let me know if there was a program that is trusted and could be mac or ipad friendly. I do think Gennady nailed it when he said "radiant heat loss is quite different from convection. The boiler size required for radiant heating system is at least 30-35% less than a conventional heating system". That makes sense and could be the discrepancy in the numbers. This house was built in the 80's has 2x6 walls and probably about an R-18 or so in the outside walls. It has very thick heavy curtains on all the windows and it's only a second home used for ski weekends in Stowe Vt. All the baseboard matches the HB Smith that is currently rotting away in the basement about 216K Btu Net load. Thanks all for the help.

Should be closer

@ May 8, 2014 6:03 AM in Heat Loss discrepancy

I was with him as he did slant fin program no padding or bologna business. I can see being off a few thousand but we're miles apart.

I was hoping to get some feedback on what others are using and if anyone is using their program on an Ipad. I really want heatload pro but it will be an expensive venture due to not owning any PC based computers.

I can also post the 3 three floors of numbers and if you want to run the numbers as three big rooms for argument sake

The building is 74 x 30 = 220
basement floor is 2220sqft 9' ceilings, with 15 sqft windows and 92 sqft of doors
first floor is 2220sqft with 10' ceilings, 215sqft windows and 443 in doors
2nd floor is 2220sqft with avg of 9' ceilings, 149windows and 121

lots of glass and for kicks I measured the baseboard that was installed in 1984 and it matches the slant fin heat loss dead on. The boiler is even perfect size for the slant fin estimate.

Heat Loss discrepancy

@ May 7, 2014 7:05 PM in Heat Loss discrepancy

I am quoting a boiler swap that is 6660sqft, with a ton of windows and doors. I did the heat loss on Uponors radiant heat loss program and got 145K btu than I had my salesman stop by and he did it on Slant fins program and came up with 220K!!

What are most guys using for heat loss programs? I would love an Ipad Heat loss app!!

Thanks Guys!


@ May 1, 2014 1:04 PM in Convectors

Here a pic of one of the units

Dead on

@ May 1, 2014 11:30 AM in Convectors

Thanks Carl, Does that number on the chart account for the double fin tube or just a single row?

Icesailor, you are absolutely correct, I do feel like an errand boy. I chalk some of this up to educational expense. I do learn a lot from doing this but also need to learn how to say no thank you to being a mildly informed free sounding board. The building heated well with the 3 furnaces (all about 90K btu's) and I don't know how long that monster Weil McLain has been offline but it will take a full day, a plasma cutter and 2 guys to get it out of there. My plan is to use a 120 gallon thermal accumulator and feed the condensing boiler into it and the pellet stove into it and set the tank temp as low as I can get away with. Thanks for helping


@ May 1, 2014 6:36 AM in Convectors


I am struggling with a new project. Homeowner is a builder and already knows what he wants but in the next breath has absolutely no idea!!

7000Sqft house built with 12" brick exterior walls and seriously high ceilings (some 22') and a ton of windows. I did a full heat loss and the entire building is 201K btu of loss.
Currently the building has convector heaters on one half of building, they are double finned 4" fintube on1 1/4" copper pipe that have been abandoned in the past because the boiler was installed by the pilgrims (its waaay too big and old)!! The house was retrofitted with 3 gas furnaces to keep it warm. Very inefficient.

The new owner wants to go geothermal, after a long conversation about the cost exceeding his budget he now wants to do a pellet stove, with a condensing boiler backup piped into a thermal tank and install 3 coils into the furnaces.

Ok, so enough back story and to my actual question, after looking at some websites and not getting anywhere (eyes glazed over) I need help figuring out what these style convectors put out for heat at different temps? I want to know what water temp I can set them for and still cover my load. If it's easier I need a little guidance understanding the charts in this PDF, They are the WA style with 6" cabinets

I will post again

@ April 9, 2014 6:58 AM in LAARS Endurance problem

I posted this in your other thread

Start by checking the internal zone valve if it isnt shutting all the way it will allow heat to pass by all the time depending on how your boiler is piped. It will also not open on your second boiler to allow heat out, but there are many possibilities for lack of heat.

R- Value

@ April 8, 2014 4:01 PM in R- Value

Hey Guys

Looked at a job today that has 12" thick brick outside walls. They are double brick walls with an older board insulation in between the two. Anyone know if the Uponor program will know what to rate that style outside wall for R value? I haven't run into this before, it's very similar to a school building it has big wall mounted convectors feed with 1" copper and lots of windows!!
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