Heating Help

Well that solves that

@ May 20, 2013 10:04 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

I am truly surprised it works at all... I would flip the circ and then make sure it works, maybe he did swap the sensors...

zman and the box...

@ May 20, 2013 9:27 PM in I have noticed more and more shotty work

lol, the box is easy to under stand...
Say you wan to go from A to E, you need to either go a-g-e or a-h-e
Say you want to go from B to I you need to go b-f-d-i or b-h-e-i or b-f-e-i ect, you can not cross the square, its not allowed...

Think of it this way, you are running baseboard from c to d and the boiler is at A you will run your supply a-g-c- and your return d-f-b-h-a or d-f-g-a- ect... but never d-e-a because even though it is the shortest path and will work perfectly, it will be wrong {to me}, you would have crossed the floor boards, X'ed the ceiling and made the job look like garbage...
Pretty simple make sure all your elbows are straight with the adjacent wall...

4 year old post, lol

@ May 19, 2013 10:25 PM in Buderus won't run on generator

I came across this problem in the past, just installed a line conditioner and FIXED.... I believe it was a tripplight or something like that, I haven't had any issues lately..

Thank you

@ May 19, 2013 9:25 PM in I have noticed more and more shotty work

:)

I don't have any issues with 45*s

@ May 19, 2013 9:23 PM in I have noticed more and more shotty work

I use a lot of unistrut so sometimes an offset it needed to make the strut work... I just have a huge problem with couplings, I have a picture somewhere of a water heater install {gas a basic 40 ga gas water heater} that had 8 couplings on each side, the house was around 70 years old, and every time someone installed a tank they cut the hot and cold pipes then installed another coupling, I had them on my toolbox for years, but it has since been misplaced (someone probably junked it)... When I did the water heater install I drained the house down went back to the original 90*s coming down from the ceiling, installed a vac breaker, ball valves on hot and cold, and a union on each side... I also had to repipe the gas line a little so I took out the antique gas service valve and replaced it with a new one and new pipe down to the unit. I charged the customer an additional $85 for the extra work and materials {which I cleared with the wife} and the husband refused to pay it!!! I almost took that as a lesson but instead stuck to my work ethic and would do the same thing today...

Zman

@ May 19, 2013 11:40 AM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

"If it aint broke dont fix it" in my post I also said as long as there are no safety concerns.. Safety is obviously the first concern wether or not it works, you can run a garden hose for a gas line it will work but its obviously not safe, and then worth fixing, but if the unit is operating safely in a manor that allows the factory warranty to stay in tact, than I don't see the point of spending tha much money to make it look better...

If the pump is indeed pumping backwards, then yes, I would swap that around but I doubt that is the case...

I have noticed more and more shoddy work

@ May 19, 2013 11:24 AM in I have noticed more and more shotty work

When I go over what I expect from an installer I have rules for them to follow.. Its pretty easy to understand...

Here is my letter box, some employees like to make fun of it, but it is actually a tool..



When running a piping system- You can go from A to B, A to C, B to D, D to C, BUT NEVER A to D or B to C... In other words you do not go across the ceiling or run any pipes diagonally.

That is the toughest of my rules to understand, the rest are pretty easy

#2- Hard pipe to the ceiling {this includes gas lines, water lines, condensate lines, electrical ect.} I allow a few exceptions like condensate pump discharge hoses, thermostat wire, ect}... NO pex or gas flex running down the walls...

#3- Straight, level, and plumb {I don't need to explain this one} this rule doesnt apply to pipes that are meant to be installed un-level like some steam piping, drains, ect...

#4- NO COUPLINGS {if you can't go back and disconnect at the elbow, tee, ect then use a ball valve or union, no couplings}, obviously if you are running pipe longer than it is available, use couplings, I have a tech that loves to follow the rules when he knows its going to screw me, he ran 300 ft 1-1/4" line and put a ball valve every 20 feet, I almost had a stroke, and revised this rule....

#5- ISOLATION & ACCESSIBILITY- every component must be capable of being removed with out draining entire system and able to be removed with out removing another component and without un-soldering or un-threading any fittings {so flanges or unions}. Also this rule includes being able to access all clean outs, not block windows or doors, open fire boxes and doors, and hang all components where you can service them, so NO stuffing zone valves inside an 8 ft tall basement ceiling... ALL VALVES MUST BE ABLE TO OPERATE, and face forward when possible, NO BENT handles, if you need to shorten a handle, remove the sheath, cut the handle and replace the sheath adjusted to size...

#6- Minimum Leak Point Design- this just means don't use a 3/4" male adapter, a piece of tubing, 90*, and a 3/4 X 1/2" reducer when you can use a brass 3/4m X 1/2c 90* ....

#7- No "quick fittings" this includes shark bites and compression fittings {only time I allow compression is on discharge lines for T&P, PRV, vented backflows, ect, this helps when changing them...

#8- DRAINS and gauges- drains installed where they make sense, at the lowest point of the system, purge stations, where ever you will need to drain the system for service, to add anti frz, cleaning solutions, ect... Gauges installed where they make sense {some systems should have them on returns, supplies, some need both, some need one before and after mixing valves, some need for each zone, some only need the one on the boiler...

#9- Threaded joints- Teflon tape and then pipe "dope", NEVER solder on a threaded joint {solder the adapter first, then thread it in}. All steel/cast piping should be painted if exposed to elements

#10- Soldered Joints- Biggest rule is Drips, NO DRIPS Allowed!!! Not even if you can not see them.... Cover the units while soldering to avoid finish damage

#11- Secure- all piping and components must be secured, unistrut, clamps, hangers, ect, must be used where needed, wall hung units must be installed on painted wood back board, floor units must be installed on some sort of block {no bricks, especially taken from customers gardens}

#12- All the things I did not mention that go without saying- NO LEAKS, install to code and instructions, clean up and remove all packaging and installation materials,
NO DUST- Clean unit {Blue spray}, piping, tanks, ect. before leaving. New systems should look new, no solder splatters on top of boilers, no scratches {that's why we have touch-up paint}.

Some rules may interfere with each other.. In this case, simply use common sense, I do not care that crossing the ceiling or running pipes crooked saves a couple of leak points, we do not do cross celings or install un-plumb.... US common sense and when that is not available, call me...


If you follow these rules, your jobs will always look amazing, and it doesn't add as much time as you think... MAYBE an Hour a job sometimes more a lot of times less.. And you wont have burnt pipe dope, drippy solder, crooked pipes, hard to service units, ect.... It will be a job well done... The cost for isolation can get expensive and I know sometimes the job budgets are tight, but give the customer the option, say "look" for an additional X amount of dollars, you will save X amount in service time if this component fails" most will understand and want the isolation, others {house flippers, contractors, ect} will not, that is not your fault...

But anyway, I figured I would share my practices... I have seen so many systems that people post on the wall that the contractor just threw together, how much work do these guys have where they can not afford another 20 minutes to do it rite....

These rules are always changing since people will continue to surprise you with what they will do while thinking... So if anyone has any to add feel free to post them here...

Paul you are definitely rite

@ May 19, 2013 10:53 AM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

my 15 year old son could do a better job and no doubt when I was 15 I could also... But would you pay over $1000 to improve the aesthetics at this point, if the unit works...

OK, thats not a huge help

@ May 19, 2013 10:07 AM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

that could mean it is pumping into the boiler or towards the boiler since it is mounted horiz.
So is it pumping into the black steel pipe or the copper pipe going into the boiler?

Pumping into the boiler or out of the boiler...

I never notice the order

@ May 19, 2013 10:03 AM in Order of Catagories on the Wall

hw hard is it to make the topic with the most recent reply go to the top...

Heated countertops...

@ May 19, 2013 9:09 AM in New kitchen cabinets over existing baseboard heat?

a little radiant through the counters would be nice ;)

But as far as "cost effective" goes, I think the baseboard how you have it marked out is the best bet, nothing special about it, but it will work... Other options would be radiant panels or a small hydro air unit.

I did a unit, very similar to yours, {they had a large free standing island in the center of the kitchen} I installed a small hydro coil/fan unit inside their island that had supplies on each side of the the island and a single return under the counter on the seating side of their island... It works very well, but their island was very large and their basement was finished so I couldn't get the unit in the lower level..

Other jobs I have done with unfinished basements were much easier, and consisted of a small hydro air with registers in the island base and a return going up a wall and returning through the ceiling.... Takes a little doing but the end results are nice, hydro air is a nice kitchen heat option since you can "fan on" when you are cooking and move the heat around a little... This helps on thanksgiving when you have 4 burners and 3 ovens going...

I don't think its backwards guys

@ May 19, 2013 8:26 AM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

it wouldn't work at all, and he has been using it for 18 months... And if it is backwards he would have had to swap the harness for sensors over which would this installer was really incompetent and shouldn't be touching thermostats never mind installing mod cons....

OP what direction is that primary pumping? away from or to the boiler?

As far as the primary circ running

@ May 19, 2013 8:21 AM in TT110 Trimax control question

if he piped the DHW supply from the far right tapping on its own circ then you are fine, if he piped it off of the secondary that all the heat zones come off of, then the circ needs to run when the dhw calls... I can not tell from the pics how he did it, when I do a 110 solo I pipe it from the DHW tapping and then return it into the primary piping with a pair of check valves.

Its a tough call

@ May 18, 2013 10:35 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

Spend 1/2 what the unit costs to make it last an additional 5 %, like I said, its not rite' but it works... The other problem is even though your warranty {from the installer} is probably up or maybe never even existed, you aren't having any problems with the system, so maybe he thinks he is doing it a better way? Maybe in his experience that makes them last longer, I don't have any tangible proof to prove otherwise.. {although Dan may ;-) }

The project looks tossed together and done fast, but we don't know all the facts, maybe it was the installers birthday and he was in a hurry to get to his surprise 13th birthday party at Chucky Cheese?

But seriously, its good you are asking pros what you should do, but this is going to be your call, the tech that suggested the repipe was really the one with the burden of talking you into it, if he didn't then- thats, that... If you don't trust him enough to just do what he says because he thinks its the rite thing, you need to find another tech, or you will be in this position next time when another guy comes and says he should have installed the backflow over here with a down pipe and he should have put a Low water cut off here, and a thermal expansion tank here, and piped the T&p valve down, and put a heck of a lot more isolation valves in {after the water feed would be nice}, and used less {to none at all} black pipe, and ect. ect. ect....
My point being (and I have said this on here 20 times), "EVERYONE DOES IT DIFFERENT" your way may not be "out of the book" "the way I would do it" , "the way the teach" , ect, But it may work just as good, and if that is the case and it is safe and doesn't void the units coverage, then who am I to say you can't do it that way {unless I sign you pay check , then you better do it how a say}...

But its your call, weigh it out and let us know how you choose to go, but if you choose to do it, then please post pics of the job when its done so we can rip the new guys work apart, lol Just kidding...

Pictures

@ May 18, 2013 10:17 PM in TT110 Trimax control question

I think you posted some, but some of these posts run together in my head, maybe put all these posts in one thread for you..

If it is piped pri sec than the pump will run every time the burner runs as for the bypass, I would imagine you can leave it closed if its purpose was to protect your old boiler from cold returns the tt will love them cold returns.... But I will need to see pics to be sure that is what you have...

OK there is a THICK line between rite and wrong.

@ May 18, 2013 10:14 PM in is it a problem connecting a larger gas pipe to a smaller gas pipe?

You can pipe it how ever you want, its your home, you probably aren't pulling a permit or getting it inspected and even with out seeing the btu ratings and your supply specifications I would guess it will work... After all that is more important than almost all of the other factors that make up a project, second to only safety...


Now, if it were me....

You got the 3/4" pipe for free, so use it, but not how you think... Instead run that to the patio, install a 3/4x1/2"x1/2" tee and use up the 1/2" pipe that you have left over to go to the fire pit and the bbq... SURE it will be a more work, BUT it will be more on the side of "Rite"... And this is your house, but more importantly a job you are performing so take pride in it and do it rite.....

BUT like I said, that is if it were me...

What are the BTU ratings and overall lengths for each appliance?

Now that I see it...

@ May 18, 2013 9:56 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

they did a few things wrong for sure, but I stand by what I said, if it is working, $1000+ is a lot of money, I don't see anything that is going to dramatically shorten the units life, I personally wouldn't spend the money, not on that unit.. Them are generally low cost units and to throw 50% of the units cost into repiping a working system just doesn't make sense... Obviously you haven't had any problems in the year and a half its been there, soooo? totally up to you at that point....


Did the tech mention any safety reasons to change the piping, that would help for reasoning in the $1000+ expense.

Hot rod

@ May 18, 2013 9:47 PM in Longest lasting indirects

You are thinking way too far ahead here... That is like saying second hand smoke is bad for infants.... The ill effects aren't going to be seen for 5 or 6 years at least, meanwhile the smoke tastes so good rite now, easily worth it... {that's a joke, I don't smoke or have an infant}

Tim I am flattered,

@ May 18, 2013 8:09 PM in Heatpro I would love to hook

I'm not sure if my schedule would permit such I thing, but I will get in touch with you this week, I tried calling a few weeks back when I was rite down the road from you installing some Rinnai units, but had no luck, it was later than I expected to finish, but drilling through what I thought was a simple cement foundation that turned out to be granite covered in stucco proved to be quite time consuming...

I would love to sit in on a class {I am always looking to learn how others do things, I find myself preaching to the closed minded {albeit experienced} local guys' about sizing to heat loss, tuning for uniform minimum delivery temperatures, ect when we get together in the local squeky floor supply shops... Just today I was explaining how and why to run a second floor return for a first floor air handler to a gentleman in SPHS, and he has been doing duct work for 25 years and never thought about doing it {common practice for me when vaulted ceilings are in the picture}....

But I will definitely get in touch with you this week.... I am trying to talk my uncle into sending a few of his oil techs and getting them trained on gas to open his company up to gas service in addition to the oil {he has owned a well established full service oil company in Johnston since 1980}... I hate going by there and seeing the oil techs "hanging around" while they can be doing gas service and earning their paychecks....

Im thinking its time to get a gas tech there...

@ May 18, 2013 7:48 PM in Bryant 90 plus furnace wont fire.

If this was an issue where the unit was locking out because of a cracked hose to the pressure switch or a flame rod needing to be cleaned, an oil tech could easily get by, but it sounds to me like your gas pressure is WAY out of adjustment, you may have a serious venting issue, and or a damaged heat exchanger (s)....

I think you mentioned someone touching the gas valve, too many spoons in the pot ruins the soup, but I think its time to bring in a professional spoon that can put actual eyes on the unit...

Time to call in a gas pro, you don't want to risk property damage, personal injury, or worse...

If it aint broke

@ May 18, 2013 5:23 PM in Gas Boiler Pump and Zone Locations

don't fix it, from what I see it is not piped how the manual suggests, but it has worked for almost 2 years, do you want to spend $1000 to repair something that works? Its not the best job I ever seen that is for sure, but it works, I would close my pockets if I were you, ride it out until the system needs to be replaced and next time, hire someone that knows how to follow basic instructions...

PS -We try not to talk money on this forum, Im terrible at it, but still one of the rules....

That boiler knows how to heat water

@ May 16, 2013 11:02 PM in indirect tank size

short cycling is when the boiler runs for a short time shuts off for a short time and runs again for a short time, your boiler may run for a short time to satisfy the DHW load only {not usually though, it should be around 10 minutes or so if you use a delta t circ it helps believe it or not} and then it will be off for a long time and run again when the tank needs more heat... It will not short cycle...

that is a time tested and very well made combination, just make sure your water has been tested, and you continue to keep the water clean and unit serviced, it will last a long time and make you very comfortable....