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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on August 7, 2014

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I did 2 daycares...

@ August 7, 2014 8:06 PM in How would you....? (daycare mixing)

a customer of mine asked me to do the hvac and dhw for 2 daycares his daughter and wife opened, I normally wot get too involved in projects like this because I am not a plumber, but he bought a very expensive geothermal system off of me the year before and I would like to keep his business...
So anyway, I ran a Rinnai tankless for their hot water {hvac was ducted furnace and coil}, I ran 2 trunk lines one was for all the faucets {these were dedicated daycares not live ins} which was a kids boys bathroom and a kids girl bathroom and a small hand sink in the play room, that had a normal taco mixing valve on it after the rinnai unit. The other line fed the kitchen sink, dishwasher, adult bathroom{only 1 of them had a separate adult bathroom}, and washer. I installed 2 temp controls one at the washer and one at the sink...

the system has been there a while now and they love it, the inspectors didn't blink at the design and hardest part of the entire job was squeezing under them tiny little sinks, if I ever did that again I would put all the plumbing on them with flex lines then hang them..

The reason I didn't mix the entire building was because they were preparing food for the kids, the health department wanted 140* at the kitchen and dishwasher, I gave them two options, one was what I did the other was a booster point of use electric tankless for the ktichen to get it to 140 for the health dept.... If I remember correctly the health dept wanted 110* at the kid accessible faucets...

You or the property owner needs to call the child care licensing board for your area and find out what they want done, I promise it will be more strict than the local inspectors... In my area daycares are inspected by the state....

At 1100 sq ft

@ August 7, 2014 7:51 PM in Navien CH180ASME

your heat loss has to be quite low, first have someone do a heat loss calcc, and see what you need for btu's to heat the space, then do a little math and figure out what you need for domestic hot water...

I am not a combi fan, I like separate dhw and heating appliances, so I would try to sell you something like the rinnai ru80i for dhw and a lochinvar knight 055 or triangle tube solo 60...

You get what you pay for in all aspects of HVAC, materials and labor/worksmanship...

OK, some more info for you..

@ August 7, 2014 7:34 PM in Help...I bought a foreclosure

First, red on the outside black on the inside pex, made me laugh, I only heard that one other time and it was in a supply house there was a guy at the counter asking for red exterior black interior pex...

ANYWAY...

Hot water- Figure out what you need, don't just pick a size off the top of your head... How many showers and how many people? Do the math, what is the most dhw you will ever use? Say 2 showers and a washing machine- A phase 3 smart 40 tank will do that, save you money and last longer...


Next the boiler...
Manifold- I would make the manifold, most likely the tubes are not going to be any prefabbed friendly order, so I would make it all by hand..

switching relay- http://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-SR506-EXP-4-6-Zone-Switching-Relay-w-Priority 6 zones 5 for your heating loops and 1 for your tank...
I would look into some sort of outdoor reset either in the aquastat like a hydro level or with the taco zone control like the pc700 from taco that can be used with the above zone control...

The bumble bees are a great circulator and I use them a lot, so far so good... I would stay with a cast iron conventional boiler if I were you, I install a lot of mod cons and they are nice but unless there is a huge rebate program that is going to pay you back a good percentage of the added cost I wouldn't bother...

So thats about it, do your self a favor and use a good boiler, outdoor reset with primary secondary piping, outdoor combustion air, and bumble bee circs, the system will be efficient and last a long time with very little service issues...


Like I said before a pair of small boilers would be even better.. For example 2 cga25's http://www.supplyhouse.com/Weil-Mclain-381-357-800-CGA-25-38000-BTU-Output-Boiler-Spark-Ignition-Nat-Gas vs a single cga5 http://www.supplyhouse.com/Weil-Mclain-381-357-806-CGA-5-102000-BTU-Output-Boiler-Spark-Ignition-Nat-Gas

the energy saved from you running that single tiny 2.5 for 85% of the heating season and having the second one kick in and out only when needed is more than you would think. I have done a bunch of these systems with them specific boilers and it works awesome... you could simply change the above outdoor reset from a 700 to a 702 which will control both boilers http://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-PC702-1-Taco-Boiler-Reset-Control-2-Stage-4110000-p so material wise its not that much more money...

Put back what was there

@ August 6, 2014 9:03 PM in Help...I bought a foreclosure

It must have worked good, the guy took it with him...

If it were me piping it I would put a bumble bee on each zone, put the manifold on that wall, simple enough with a few pieces of unistrut, mount the expansion tank, water feed ect all on that wall... Use a taco 6 zone relay with priority a 50 gallon smart indirect tank, and call it a day...

If you want to get fancy put 2 small boilers instead of one large one with a nice dual boiler control...

What are you expecting for supply temps?

@ August 4, 2014 9:28 PM in TriangleTube Install

What is your heat loss for the building and then each zone separately?

You need to figure these things out first, then properly size your emitters to the room and you boiler... Is this boiler just taking care of low temp heating or is it also going to be taking care of high temp also?

If it is all low temp, then you don't need any mixing valves, the internal tank will work on priority so the high temp dhw wont mix {much} with the low temp panels. So no bypasses needed... Ill find you a drawing from my list, I think I have one identical to what you are trying to do..

The attached drawing will be similar, your boiler circ will be internal with the excellence... I would consider having a tankless installed and going with a solo instead of an excellence... This will allow you to properly size your boiler, if you need 110K btu that is fins but it must be a large home... I have 2000sq ft homes with solo 60s in them that never go cold...

I think we will need more info

@ August 4, 2014 7:33 PM in flow on system?

zone valves will definitely "constrict" the system, but if that will or will not inhibit proper function won't be apparent until you do the math...

Why not forget about zone valves and use a nice circ for each zone, something variable like the bumble bee, set it up for delta t and forget about it...

Do yourself a favor

@ August 4, 2014 7:25 PM in TriangleTube Install

Run the system pri/sec... The circ is already there..

Dan, are all the rads in one room?

I would pipe this this way...

Do the math for your rads, see what they want for flow, I would guess depending on the size brand ect. you would rather not have a 10 loop manifold...

I would run 2- 5's maybe even 2-3's and a 4 loop depending on the rooms layout...... come out of the boiler with 1" and run 2 or 3 http://www.supplyhouse.com/Webstone-58643-1-x-3-4-Pro-Pal-Full-Port-Brass-Ball-Valve-w-Reversible-Handle-Primary-Secondary-Loop-Purge-Tee-600-WOG purge tees for your secondaries... a circ on each manifold and never have an issue...

Keep getting quotes..

@ August 1, 2014 7:28 PM in Advice on New Hydro Air System

All contractors are going to do it different.. I am kind of confused...


If they are putting hydro-air units in, why the need for separate AC units and hot coils?



Here is what I am thinking, off the top of my head with out seeing the property..
If cost is not a huge issue here is what I would do....

2 first co units... EVB-HW's heatpump/ac and HW coil....
1-36EVB-HW
1-24EVB-HW
I would add an additional hw coil to the duct work over each hydro air unit to allow you to lower your boiler temps...

2- Armstrong air 16 seer heatpump outdoor units
1-4SHP16LS124P-2
and 1-4SHP16LS136P-2

For DHW I would look into the Smart tanks, do the math to see what size you need and properly size the unit, no exceptions on that one, bigger inst better unless you need it, otherwise it is a waste..

I would use a Grundfos alpha on the primary side and a Bumble bee pump setup for delta T on the secondary side for each air handler and the dhw tank....

1-Buderus 2 G115-3's fire them with .55 nozzles {or figure out what your heat loss really is and fire them accordingly} with a multi boiler control like the weil mclain BCP3 , use a nice tstat that controls heatpump cross over, have the rite tech set it all up and you will have one of the most efficient Oil/electric systems available, as well as a bunch of rebates if they are still good by the time you do the work... I would configure them direct vent vs chimney and use outside air, even if you use a chimney you can still use outside air...
Pipe the twins primary secondary start with as low of a boiler temp as you can, the controls will allow you to play with all the settings once you get going...

So depending on the cost of your power and your units, you would run your heat pumps to say.. 40 degrees, once 40 degrees outside temp is hit, you will switch to a single buderus boiler, once more than that boilers output is needed to heat the space you will bring in #2, your boiler temp could be as low as 140 and your boiler will still be able to be setup to run up to 180 for your DHW tank, which shouldn't call much...


Now if cost is an issue, then I would use a single properly sized buderus boiler {I like using twins when homes have heat losses over 130K you are on the edge..}, omit the heatpumps and use 13 seer units, change the variable speed first co's to regular HBXB-HW's, Lose the boiler control and run the control that comes with the g115 and again the same properly sized water tank, then 007's for circulation...

With the price of oil depending how long you will be at this address I would be investing as much into efficiency as you can afford, heatpuump, multi stage boilers will save you money, how much will depend on your heat loss and what the price of oil does, but sometimes the above system vs your proposals isnt a huge amount....

In my area

@ June 25, 2014 7:14 AM in Whole house de-humidifier

I usually try to install central as with an air exchanger vs a dehumidifier, some places have more humidity issues and need a designated unit, but in most cases the ac works well...
I am installing 2 ultra aire units in a 2400 sq ft 2 story home in a couple weeks, their home will not stay comfortable with just central a/c, they need to set the temp way to cold to keep the humidity down on days where the dew point is any where near the air temp... But the house has some issues, running water under a crawl space {half slab on grade half 3' ft dirt crawl}..
Anyway, I use honey well, april aire, ultra aire, ect, they are all decent, you do get what you pay for, but they are now all pretty close in price, like always the install is going to be the make or break issue- size it correctly, install it by the book, insulate well, and set the controls up correctly....

Yes the co120x

@ May 27, 2014 2:17 PM in Carbon Monoxide/Smoke Alarm Interlock

is pretty much identical to the item I listed, normally a couple bucks more, I have used both and I have both in my stock bin, but rm4 is easier to remember than co120x, lol... I buy which ever is in stock, there is also another unit that comes in a box, I forget the part number {GE brand} but its sealed with screw/lug conns, and costs 3 times as much as the rm4,..

I am sure it will be code everywhere soon {not that its a bad thing, if it saves 1 life then its worth it and the idea has the potential to do so}, then after its code there will be a few brands to choose from for a few years then after that Honeywell and the other control companies will build it into their controls, by then another new safety issue will come up and someone will come up with a way to warn and prevent it and we will be discussing that, its a viscous circle....

9120B is the actual number

@ May 27, 2014 6:33 AM in Carbon Monoxide/Smoke Alarm Interlock

http://www.brkelectronics.com/product/SC9120B
pretty simple to wire wire the 3 wire side of the detector as you would normally wire 2 detectors together- l1, l2 and signal, then on the other side of the rm4 wire the brown in from l1 and the grey out to the boilers l1 feed {I wire it before the fireomatic}, there is also a blue contact you can wire to an external 120v alarm or strobe...

read the instructions, I may have mixed up some of the colors, I haven't done it in over a month...

PS if you are doing this on a gas boiler and dont want to wire it high voltage you can break 24v to the gas valve and wire it in how a roll out would be wired, but this makes things tougher since you need hv and lv in the same box...

As far as it being a bad idea, I think its coming and it will be here to stay, so it will get "perfected" and we will live with it, like we did LWCO's, high limits, firomatics, proving switches, ect , I have installed a bunch of these setups with the cheap co's and the relay, they havent caused any negative effects as of yet, I install them a little ways from the units and they are on the ceiling, so IMO if co gets up there and at a level to set the unit off having the boiler shut down isn't a bad idea, now if the customer ignores a co detector or resets it or unplugs it ect, they will still be calling for service when they have no DHW or heat, that's when a pro can come and look at it.. I have stickers printed with my number and co on them that says "In the event of an alarm please turn stairway emergency switches to off position, evacuate area, and call for service." Not that I expect many to follow the instructions since I have a sticker I put on the oil boilers I service that says "DO NOT DEPRESS RESET BUTTON MORE THAN ONE TIME! CALL FOR SERVICE EVEN IF BURNER RUNS AFTER RESET!" and I still go to house where they pressed it 25 times because they thought it was running for 15 seconds at a time...

I take it you

@ May 23, 2014 6:27 PM in Are you in the market for a Thermal Imager?

go the email, good luck..

New threader came yesterday

@ May 22, 2014 7:19 AM in Time for a new threader....

The new ridgid 300 arrived yesterday one of my guys threw it together and made a few nipples with it to make sure everything was good...

It is amazing at how much these have gone up in price since I bought my first one...
if you buy a 300, with an extra 811, the nipple chuck, and a 141 with the drive bar and keeper loop you will spend almost $7000, and you will still need a tristand and a roller stand which is another $500 or so plus a 4s and a large reamer thats another $400 onto of that!!!!
Granted that will get you threading from 1/2" to 4" which will do for 90% of residential and medium commercial stuff, but its a good sized investment for a pipe threader...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00140TQNW/ref=pe_808750_118750230_em_1p_0_ti
http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-51005-Nipple-Chuck-2-inch-2-inch/dp/B0015BGEDU/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_y
http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-36620-Receding-Geared-Threader/dp/B001AI241O/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1400757185&sr=1-1&keywords=ridgid+141
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Threading-Geared-Threader-Accessories/dp/B004FCLFOE/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1400757228&sr=1-2&keywords=ridgid+drive+844
http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-19366-Replacement-Threader-Machines/dp/B001ASD3BE/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1400757263&sr=1-3&keywords=ridgid+141
http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-97065-Universal-Opening-Oiling/dp/B0002DOK5G/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1400757289&sr=1-2&keywords=ridgid+811a


They did a demo of the Ridgid 258 for me, and I like it a lot, but the price is kind of steep since I hardly do any big pipe threading any more.... But it works awesome...

I emailed it to you

@ May 21, 2014 6:25 PM in Are you in the market for a Thermal Imager?

what is your email?

How to save customers money

@ May 19, 2014 9:16 AM in How to save customers money

I go to customers homes and everyone wants to save money {well, almost everyone}, and the first thing I look at it USE, it is the easiest and least expensive place to save money. Next of course is loss {tighten the envelope} then equipment efficiency.
BUT everyone jumps rite into efficiency, which to me is the last step and one of the most expensive. The truth of the matter is USE is going to save you the most for your investment... Now with the HUGE price differences in energy types I also factor in fuel cost but for the most part where NG is piped they get NG where it is not they get lp or oil....

Anyway, I have a customer that lives alone in a 1700 sq foot home, built in the 50's with upgraded windows and doors, he called me and asked about a new LP boiler {his choices are lp, oil, electric}. I installed his existing unit in 2009, its a Buderus g115 with a 40 ga smart tank, ODR, outside air, everything but delta t pumps {was before I really started pushing them}, but he was spending, in his opinion "way too much on oil". Now mostly because oil is expensive, if it was 80 cents a gallon no one would complain or care about HE boilers...

So I explained that his boiler is brand new and he will definitely loose money even if the LP boiler was 100% efficient, he wasn't getting it so I told him that when I had time I would stop by and go over it with him, which I did, and after a 30 minutes conversation about efficiency and equipment life span we were on the same page... So I offered to go through his "habits" and see if we could tighten up with out spending a ton of money...

I started with his schedule, he lives alone, works 4 days 10 hour each- Tues to Fri and he has every, Sat-Mon off, so he is home for most if not all of them days, then I went to his comfort, he keeps the house at 72 all winter, he has a basic round tstat and never touches it, next was the building itself, nothing jumped out at me as an issue, newer windows, tight doors, 2x4 construction with old but decent insulation so nothing worth really ripping apart- except the attic which only has a few inches of old blown in stuff...

Now we talked budget, he didn't care what he spent, but he wanted it back before he died, lol....
So I put together a little plan to start, I started with DHW, he already had propane in the house for a genny and stove so I installed a Rinnai tankless water heater, a new high sierra shower head and I changed his kitchen faucet for him {he had an old single handle with no filter in it that leaked, I put in a nice tankless friendly 2 handle}...

next was the attic insulation, Atlas sucked out his old shredded newspaper and put as much r30 as they could get in there, I did a blower door test and the house was tight, we fixed a few little issues but it was all 5 minute foam and caulking stuff...

Now zoning and setbacks - he had 2 baseboard zones so I left that alone except he had 3 bedrooms on the upstairs zone and only used one, so I installed a zone valve and bypass so he could control his bedroom alone and turn down the other 2. I installed 2 programmable tstats and moved one of his old ones to the new guest bedroom zone, which he felt comfortable keeping at 50 degrees. So we set his tstats up for his lifestyle, I may not remember exactly but I believe it was set to 70 when he was home 55 away and the bedroom zone and living space zones were setup for his use, 1st floor down to 62 for his sleeping hours, ect...

So after all of that was dealt with, he had a new tankless, low flow shower heads, better zoning, better insulation, and seemed to be happy with what we did, EXCEPT he wanted more, lol... So I told him about solid fuel, and he was interested, I ended up installing a small automatic coal stoker, which IMO he was perfect for, being home for 3 days in a row is perfect, he can start the stove when he gets home on Friday and let it run until he goes to work on Tuesday in the cold months...

So we got everything done last year {I believe I made a post about it when we were doing it, but I couldn't find it in search} and he just gave me a call first thing this morning... He wants to put central A/C in as soon as possible, he wants a heat pump system {I must have mentioned it to him} and said the money he saved will help pay for it, so I asked what he spent this year, he said half of last year and it was much colder this winter...
He said it worked perfect the boiler hardly ran, he fed the coal stove on his 3 days off and let the boiler handle the rest of the week, he burnt around a ton of coal {$300} and said he loved the heat it gave... I am going to try and get there in a couple weeks to spec the a/c system {really behind rite now} and if he goes for it he will be able to run the heat pumps in the shoulder months, coal when he wants to and oil when he has to.
It is very similar to my homes system, I run coal, lp, and heatpumps but because someone is almost always home at my house the setbacks dont really get used, BUT we can run coal all winter, I NEVER ran my lp boiler this year, heated with just coal...

Anyway, I figured I would share, maybe someone is in a similar situation and can use the ideas...

sounds like

@ May 19, 2014 8:09 AM in Rinnai trouble shooting

water flow control assembly needs to be replaced, check the harness out and make sure the connections are all in good shape, if they are the flow control may need to be replaced, I had a bad flow sensor that acted similar though.....

Which flow control is it the gray box onto p of the brass valve or the black box onto pf the valve?

Get some prices on the parts, figure worse case, sensor, control, board, if the unit is pretty old may be a better option to just throw a new one on the wall.
I learned a while back once the units flood or freeze sometimes it is better to just throw a new one on the wall, it takes 30 minutes, especially if the unit is older, a new one may be a good idea, sell the old one on ebay for parts, and be done with it.. I had a customer sell his old rinnai {lightening hit the panel and cooked 90% of the electronics in the house, the rinnai didnt make it} on ebay for $200 less than a new one cost me, so it may be a good option...

I think

@ May 17, 2014 6:58 AM in What do you think of this product?

you will need gallons and F to start, lol...

And a timer function would be nice, I actually have a timer in my shower and my sons shower, we used to have digital ones but they broke so I found some hour glass types that are 5 minutes, you can see when its running out and rinse off...

Also I am not sure what the software looks like but some kind of app that lets you enter your units specs, like efficiency, cost for fuel, type of fuel, ect so you can see what an actual shower costs you per minute would be nice...

As most of you know I am always looking for ways to cut DHW costs for customers, we use a RU98 with high sierra shower heads and a hybrid tank in the summer months{acts as a prestage for the tankless in the winter months} {soon to be reworked}...
this is a cool site for figuring out dhw savings http://www.showermanager.com/conservation-store/shower-savings.shtml

So as far as saving money goes, without a timer or a little flashing dollar amount that constantly goes up while you are in the shower, I don't see how this will save more money than a $25 shower head and a $5 timer, BUT if you can somehow incorporate them with this product it could be very nice... I am sure its worth the asking price, but I am on the side of saving money by not spending it, so I personally see spending $60 on something that just tells me if I am saving or not as kind of a waste, and in my experience electronics inside a steamy shower dont last long, so I personally would probably not buy it if I wasnt in the HVAC field, since I am I have to have one, lol...

Anyway, I like the idea, I would market it with a water saving shower head, so far I found the high sierra to be the best and use the least amount of water, the pressure is intense, and I get around 1.4 gpm and under, but it feels better than 2.5+ heads... Thats going to be the key- package deal, use this item to sell and show how much a 1.4gpm head saves you per shower...

I miss my old 270

@ May 16, 2014 8:41 PM in Time for a new threader....

that thing was great, worked like a horse, easy to setup and move around, simple to use, I always wondered why they never made an adapter for the ridgid 700 on the idea of the 270? That would be a great little threader.... you dont see 270s around anymore, I got rid of mine years ago because it needed a cord and a switch, sold it for $300 to the kid that worked at grainger..

I tried a couple different machines..

@ May 16, 2014 8:36 PM in Time for a new threader....

I tried a Rothenberger supertronic, they brought up 2 of them to my shop for me to try, I felt bad they had to wait an hour and a half for me to get back there to test it out, but we bought them lunch... The brought a 2" and a 3", the 3" machine is pretty nice, almost identical just larger, and they also make a 4"... The 2" machine that would compare to a 300 was nice, I have to say I like their die head and auto oiler, plus the automatic release, although when I asked how hard it was to rebuild the die head they said its easy to change dies but not so easy to disassemble and rebuild it all together, there are balls and springs and all kinds of stuff in there...
The prices were fair, considering comparing the 4" model to a 1224, the ridgid would be around double the cost!! But also the 1224 is 510 lbs and the 4" rothenberger is 250....
same goes for the 300 vs the 2" machine the 300 is around 80lbs heavier...

Although the ridgid supposingly has a 1/2hp motor and the rothenbergers have 1 and a 1/2 hp!!! BUT I showed them my 300 that is old and used, turns pipe easier, not sure why {they said its gearing} but the 300's just spin with ease and the others sound like they are working....

I also took a ride to a friend of mines shop after work and he showed me his wheeler 8097, it works very well, but I don't think it will be as easy to break down and setup although I like the self oilers a lot, it would be nice not to have to cart around the oil buckets...

I have some thinking to do...

Ill bet the installers reason was

@ May 16, 2014 8:22 PM in Buderus G124

the 6" was there from the old boiler, lol...

Its a good place to start looking, check the drafts {all of the combustion for that matter, keeping a close eye on stack temps}, normally I find condensation issues with larger boilers, boilers using mixing valves, or emitters large enoug hto create huge deltas, since the g124's are smaller units, I am kind of surprised its condensing enough to create problems...

If the problem is not the combustion or venting and is indeed an issue that adjustments, outside combustion air, reworking venting, ect can not fix, and you need to close the delta you have a few options, one of course is pri secondary or a bypass pipe, but another is a delta circ on each zone, like a bumble bee, set the delta and forget it...

Combustion test?

@ May 16, 2014 8:01 PM in Buderus G124

I would start there, piping primary sec is a good idea as is the liner, but make sure you are running rite... What is your stack temp? What does the venting config look like?

henry

@ May 16, 2014 1:58 PM in New water heater

Thats exactly the way most customers go, completely remove it put in a nice furnace with a capable gas dhw tank...

Lennox has some really good equipment out there, they make a 98% varimodcon furnace that is one of the nicest in the field, I have seen their 2 stage and other furnaces last a very long time with no service, most companies will have a hiccup here and there, that was one of theirs for sure..
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