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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on June 25, 2014

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When I say heat loss

@ May 12, 2014 9:06 PM in Hot Water Options

I mean for the space heating.

You want to come up with an accurate number for DHW and Heat..

So say each unit needs 5gpm at 70 degree rise and the entire building needs 60K BTUS of heat... I would look into a small natural gas boiler with a pair of natural gas water heaters {if there are 2 gas meters if there is one, go with a larger gas fired tank for both units...

oil or gas

@ May 12, 2014 8:10 PM in Hot Water Options

Do the math for his heatloss and his DHW consumption and then I could give you some options...

It is well taken care of

@ May 12, 2014 5:37 PM in Time for a new threader....

just seen a lot of pipe in its day, this one I bought used about 10 years ago and use it more than any other, because it always ended up being closest to the door, lol...

I have a couple small pony units that we never use {690 and a 700}, I have a 1215 that I keep in my sheet metal trailer, a 1210 that I used a lot when I first got it, but I always go back to the 300, its fast, cuts great, with the carriage is really easy to use, the only downside to the machine is its weight, but with the stand and the wheel set its not that bad to move around...

Time for a new threader....

@ May 12, 2014 3:52 PM in Time for a new threader....

One of my 300's is getting old, just needed to change the switch and today when I was using it I noticed the chuck is getting loose so I just ordered a set of jaws, before this machine costs more than a new one to fix, I figure I will grab a new one, but I just got a call back from the supply house and they are almost $4000 now!!!

This year seems like I am spending a lot in equipment, I still need a couple new combustion testers too, an easy $3k, and now a new threader...

Anyone know the best place to buy a ridgid 300... I can get away with just a drive, but I would rather buy at least the drive and carriage so I don't have to rebuild my carriage, I dont mind using my stand and oiler...

What

@ May 12, 2014 6:42 AM in Are you in the market for a Thermal Imager?

LOL, I have to send my laptop into the repair center if I need a new screen protector...

message me

@ May 9, 2014 11:05 PM in Are you in the market for a Thermal Imager?

and I will forward it to you, thanks

Thank you guys,

@ May 8, 2014 9:52 PM in So far behind......

I appreciate the advice, I have a few guys working, A/C tech, Sheet metal Tech, carpenter, and helper. The jobs go pretty smooth for the most part, I am no stranger to how to run the day to day ops and get the work done... I think the stem of the stress I am feeling is my personal issues, with the house fire and my sons illness returning that is wearing me down more than the work... I just got home, its quarter to 10 and everyone is sleeping, I am sitting in my office planning tomorrow.... I just wish the days were a little longer for a few months so I could catch up...

Obviously the money is good and the reason I do it, and I tell my self things like "I am going to sub out the a/c this year" but then today I sent out 3 cooling proposals.... I am interviewing 2 techs next week hopefully I see some potential in one or both of them...

As soon as I catch up I am going to evaluate how I am running this, I am going to try to get behind the desk more and behind the wrench less...

yes

@ May 8, 2014 4:56 PM in Are you in the market for a Thermal Imager?

pip works for me plus a few other features the e6 and 8 dont have

I have a rental property

@ May 8, 2014 6:34 AM in bathroom baseboard

that the baseboard is about 4 inches from the toilet and this thing was constantly rusted, every year or so it needs a cover...
So I painted the entire cover assembly {a rusted one I didn't even sand the rust off} with this stuff called POR-15, I used the silver and it came great and now has been there for 5 years and still looks new,,, The por is self leveling so I just brushed it on over the rust both sides of the covers and it looked new, and still does... that stuff is amazing...

So far behind......

@ May 8, 2014 6:27 AM in So far behind......

I never noticed how much a few hours out of a few days each week can get me so far behind, with everything going on rite now, the house fire, my son being sick, season change work, ect. I can not keep up...

I am subbing out my AC work rite now just to catch up on the boiler work, I have 8 boilers out there delivered waiting for installation, luckily I have great customers but I am working 7 days a week, trying to work as late as possible and still not catching up, I hate having to give excuses, I just need a few more hours added onto each day...

But I am in a hard position, do I suffer through until I catch up or hire another tech? I hate to hire another tech since I don't have an extra truck for him and I know after I am caught up I will not need him.....

I have used them

@ May 7, 2014 12:29 PM in small snow melt, ideas?

but they are still a little over budget...

small snow melt, ideas?

@ May 6, 2014 9:56 PM in small snow melt, ideas?

I am pricing a job, its a tiny snow melt 150 sq ft, total, probably going to be around 300ft of 5/8" tubing with a 3 circuit manifold on a 10 plate 5x12 plate exchanger...

Normally I will use a snow melt control, but the budget in this job is not going to allow that, I have a system out there where I used a 35/45 thermostat http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0026S6WGK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1JX5VIUKL6HSF in a weather tight box tucked into the unheated soil near the snow melt with a switching relay and it works, the customer never complains, and it cost me under $100 in materials{for the control and stat}...


My question is what else is out there that is affordable and will control a snow melt system well????

Thanks

I have been doing this for a while

@ May 5, 2014 6:09 AM in Carbon Monoxide/Smoke Alarm Interlock

I offer it to customers for cost of materials on a new install, some go for it some don't.. I use a BRK 9120 with a RM4, costs under $100 with the boxes. The 9120 is a combo smoke co and seems to be very reliable. I have a post around here somewhere that we talked about this..

I love the idea and think it should be code everywhere...

sure they can last

@ May 4, 2014 12:55 PM in List of small mod/cons

It seems the older tanks {like most things} last longer than the stuff made now, but I can not count the ss indirects, buffers, electric/gas/oil fired tanks that I have replaced under warranty, and the amount of tanks I replace a year or 2 after warranty are even higher. My aunt bought a house with a gas water heater installed about 15 years ago when she bought the house the tank was 6 years old and its still there, so there are some that will last but for the most part I am not happy with what i see from water tanks...

But yes it seems some last, just its luck like anything else, My sister has a lincoln LS with 190K miles on it, 90% of the others built needed engines before 80K....

We cant talk prices here BUT

@ May 4, 2014 11:10 AM in List of small mod/cons

For me to install a basic conventional gas boiler with a simple close spaced tee p/s system, add an os100 ODR sensor to the hydrostat, ect it is around half of what I would get for a TT solo60 installed... By the time I build the wall paint and mount the board hang everything, I could have the ci boiler almost done... Plus the boilers are twice the cost....

On another note, I dont like adding buffer tanks to small resi systems, as most of you know from my posts, I am not a fan of tanks in general, they just don't last anymore... The added expense of the tank its piping and control to me doesn't make sense. Now of course I end up installing them where they are needed, but I will first try to figure a way around the short cycling, there are a few options for getting longer run times out of systems that don't involve storage tanks...

I installed a gb162 in a large house a few years back, they had 11 zones and 3 or 4 of them were very small, bathrooms and hallways with their own t-stat... So I mentioned to them that it could be a problem and I was working off another contractors proposal so I was told we could deal with it if it arose...
sure enough that thing constantly cycled, clicking in and out not liking them short bb runs that probably called more than any other zone in the house...
So with some fancy control work, a few thermostat changes, I got the system to work without adding a tank, I want to say that boiler was installed 6 years and all is still well, now I have seen others that I went to or service calls, with a lot of faulty parts, I have to think from the boilers constantly cycling on and off, if you want your mod con to last, figure out a way to get the longest run times possible, but if adding a buffer tank is the only option, add in the cost of changing that tank once and a while.. A friend of mine just changed a 4 year old boiler buddy, I thought it would be under warranty but it turns out 3 years on the BB tanks!!! Buying a $1000 tank every 5 years would make me sick..

I use a solo 175 in my own house

@ May 4, 2014 8:00 AM in Triangle Tube Prestige Solo

Its is a large boiler, oversized for my 4000 sq ft.. Make sure you perform a heatloss and install what you need, larger will cause problems..

most ci boilers will last 30-40yrs

@ May 4, 2014 7:32 AM in List of small mod/cons

For example, the op's system, if it were my property I would...
Install the WM cg boiler, pipe it primary secondary {helps protect the boiler}, use outside combustion air {stops forcing the buildings envelope to fail}, Delta t circs, ODR, ect, But the install doesn't stop there...

Install a decent air remover {correctly}, check and treat the boiler water, do the math and run the proper minimum boiler pressure, make sure there are zero leaks, install as much ss, copper, and brass as possible {stay away from ferrous metals when possible, less rust is better}, install quality components and isolation valves at each component so when there is problem you can do it without draining the entire system {this keeps you from adding new water to the system}, install the correct venting correctly, install the unit high if there are water issues, and use a separate DHW machine...

For DHW I would use a Rinnai tankless... the heating unit will only run the heating season, no reason to run a heating boiler year round for DHW, having the unit shut off for 6 months every year will help it last longer...

So if you pay a little attention to these details you can easily get a decent ci boiler to go the 40 plus mark, I have some g115's out there that I installed and am confident they will still be in them basements in 45 years, we service them annually and see their condition some are already almost half way there and look brand new in and out!!!! I know this because I pulled one out of a house last year after the house flooded, the boiler was installed 10-15 years ago with untreated well water and when I put the borescope inside it looked BRAND NEW!!!

So protect the boiler with primary secondary piping, test and treat the water {fernox has a lot of options}, introduce as little new water once the system is in commision as possible, get all the air out, run the minimum temps and pressures, keep the steel and cast to a minimum, make sure its combustion is perfect, ect and these systems will last a long time...

What scares me about the mod cons we are seeing is the cost of components, the rate the components change, and the thin-ish heat exchangers.

Double the thickness of the HX's (thats not going to double the price of the unit}, get taco or honeywell ect to make an all in one mod con control so we know it will be available in 30 years and not cost more than a new boiler, keep it all very simple, supply sensor, return sensor, gas valve, done. {with of course the safety switches in there too}.
But the key would be basic gas valve, ignition, control, and venting components that interchange with other brands... We could keep a box of parts on the truck for all mod cons like we do with ci boilers, the boiler manufacturers can go back to designing hx's and insulated jackets...

I know there are some guys on here and contractors out there that just want to install mod cons all day, I can't blame you, they are light, clean, easy to install, and the profits reflect the opposite, BUT do the math, if the house is getting A/C or has an existing a/c system, install a heatpump for the shoulder seasons and a ci boiler for the heating season with a separate unit for DHW.
Sure the ci will not modulate BUT it doesnt have to, your ci boiler is only going to be running in the colder months, in the shoulder months where the unit would be modding to the basement you heatpumps are working. This type of system saves money and will get your customer 40+ years out of their ci boiler... Sure that isn't the best for your business plan since you will most likely not live long enough to change the boiler again, but that is fine with me as long as it is good for the customer...

Chris I understand where you are coming from BUT

@ May 3, 2014 4:11 PM in List of small mod/cons

If I were to go into a home and tell them "I can rip out all your perfectly working baseboard for X amount and reinstall a board that will allow you to drop the boiler temps an average 20 degrees" they are going to have 2 questions {if they are interested} first how much does it cost and second is how much does it save..... You do the math and let me know how much someone can save with a 1400 sq ft home spending $1100 a year to heat it with a ci boiler.. Unless you install HO board for much less than me, I am thinking their kids will have to live well into their 70's to pay for it, lol....

I actually make it a practice to install an additional coil on existing hydro air mod con retros, and I over size new systems when the budget allows, the sad part is most of the time when I do new construction it is for the GC and I never speak to the HO, so mentioning lowering boiler temps to the GC is going to just waste mine and his time because at the end of the conversation he is going to ask if it works both ways and if I can put a little less board and run the boiler hotter, to save him money.....

Here is what I always mention a small ci for... With properties that have short heat losses, you don't spend much for heat, so the additional costs that I personally see in the field, is hard to justify for such a small savings... Don't get me wrong, I install a lot of mod cons, but I do my best to put myself in the customers shoes, if he has a 30K BTU load and wants to save money, I am going to show him other places that will save him more than a mod con, for example {fake numbers} say a mod con install is $10K and a ci is $5K, I will show him how we can install the ci boiler and spend the other $5K on tightening up the envelope, new doors, windows, insulation, aux heatpumps, aux coal stove, ect... Or I will show him how he can spend it on something to make him more comfortable, central A/C, a new massaging recliner what ever...

I do believe in making the entire system work well, I have a deposit on a job where the heatloss was $58K BTU's, they have oil/steam and I am installing gas hydro airs with heatpumps and a Rinnai tankless. I gave him the price both ways with a mod con and without, and he asked if he was better off with the mod con and no heatpumps or the heatpumps and the ci, because he couldn't afford both... I told him I would do the ci and the heatpump- a few reasons, aux heat is nice, when your boiler is down you can run the heatpump as a back up- Heatpumps are inexpensive to run in the shoulder seasons {even compared to a mod con}- Boiler runs less with heatpumps- CI will last longer than mod con- Ci will cost less to maintain- CI will be more reliable- CI will be easier to repair he gave me the deposit for the heatpump/CI system..

Like I said, I do MANY mod cons, more than most companies around here, BUT IMO they are not the answer to every hydronic question... I have a solo 175 in my house, and had a gb before I switched {it was still new but I started selling tt's}, but I heat with LP and my house is over 4K sq ft, so 10% fuel costs can be $700 a year, with a 1100sq ft home on nat gas, 10% a year can be $75 a year, takes a lot of year savings under $100 a year to make up for the cost diff, and if that unit cooks a $850 board at year 5, let me know how happy your customer is when he breaks out the calculator....

TO me a mod con starts making sense around 70K BTU's with LP and 100K BTUs with nat gas, and even then if a board goes or a $700 fan, or the unit needs annual service like some of them do, it starts to not make sense fast... Now if the customer is a techy, very interested in being green, has no room for a ci, wants fancy, money is no object, ect then sell them what ever they want to buy, but when I walk into a house, for the most part I see a confused customer just looking to save some money over the life of his mortgage, trying justify spending almost double the cost upfront to save some money 6 months a year, I take it personally, and I have showed customers that putting the extra money down on their new home will save them more than any mod con can over the 30 year term, you would be shocked to see what an extra 5K saves you in 30 years!!!

Now I know there are rebates available that help with the costs, but I have yet to priced one where it made up for the difference {more like 20% of it }, other places may be different...

JUT FOR FUN-
go to http://www.mortgagecalculator.org/ put home value to 200K and loan amount to 200K with 5% intrest rate then look at the Total of 360 Payments it will be
$461,511.57 over 30 years, now put $5K down so enter 200K value with $195K loan amount total of 360 payments will be $451,848.78, you just doubled their money with no risk... Now I know a ci can break too, but in my experience mod cons have a ways to go before they are 30-40 year machines...

still have soe more valves

@ May 3, 2014 12:40 PM in Some stuff for sale...

I got all the valves shipped except for a bunch I put a side for one member, we spoke on the phone but I was in a basement so give me a call back and well get this done, thanks

plus I still have a few more if anyone else needs some...

Sorry it took so long to get them together, between going to florida and the house fire its been insane around here...

I agree

@ May 2, 2014 8:19 AM in List of small mod/cons

we need smaller mod cons, but the price has to somewhat follow...
Ideally a nice design that flows very well, and needs very little field supplied piping...

I really want to see them switch to a more convenient control system too, I wish Honeywell would make a mod con control that works for all the units, plug it rite into an exp zone control and odr and just have the boilers control handle modulation, safety, and high/low/diff limits...
What scares me is parts support in 30 years, for example a tt excellence control, if the units are still holding water in 30 years and the control gives up will there be one on the shelf somewhere, when at the current rate they will be on their 6th or 7th control...

If it was as easy as plugging in a new Honeywell unit and maintaining some taco controls for zoning and odr the parts would be readily available, less expensive, and all techs would be familiar with them since they wouldn't vary much... The modulation could be handled with pill modules or a direct upload form an internet download from each manufacturer... I'm not an engineer but I am sure it can be done, all the sensors would be the same, all the controls, it would be a perfect world...

small loads-

@ May 2, 2014 5:00 AM in List of small mod/cons

I see homeowners that get sold into mod cons when there were much better options for much less money.
For example, a 5-6 year old-ish Knight mod con, installed in a 3 bedroom home {1200sq}, needed a board and a fan after 6 years, the parts were over $1500!!!! And then they told me when they compared heating bills vs their old leaking boiler they were only saving about $20 a month!!!!

Like I said if you had a much larger heat loss it can start to make sense, but IMO mod cons have a ways to go before they are the answer to every question...

A small ci boiler can be installed to run efficiently, people get hung up on the 95% vs 85% numbers, the fact is a lot of the mod cons I have seen need annual service, while a ci boiler can go 40 years without being cleaned {I have a 25 year old gas furnace that has never been touched in one of my rental properties and I have seen many boilers that go their entire life without being cleaned or serviced {besides maybe a circ or sr}...

Look into the CG boilers, if you want a little more comfort and efficiency, run them with an ODR, pipe them pri/sec with delta t circs... I have done many installs this way and the units shine, last June I installed 4 of them small 25's with 4 Rinnai tanklesses in a 4 unit building , the apartments were 750-900sq ft and they were all warm all winter with endless hot water. They didn't get odr or anything fancy and I'll bet no one complained about what it cost to heat their apartments...

I would make the zones as large as possible no matter what boiler you go with, a ci will be more "forgiving" to small loads than a mod con will.
good luck

I have played with this

@ May 1, 2014 5:35 PM in Fixed Flow Rate and Mod-cons

I just target the boilers minimum flow rate and try to get close to that...

In my own home, I have tested back and forth with different delta ranges, 20 degrees seems to work fine, I have opened it up and closed it down and the cost of the energy per degree day doesn't change enough to see which way it goes...
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