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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on June 25, 2014

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Ill admit I have stepped outside

@ April 20, 2013 10:13 PM in Sandy still haunts my home!

my area before but NY is risky, lol.... Im sure someone has to be up there and doing things rite, time to hit the phone book until the problem is fixed, explain, I don't pay until the problem goes away... {but now we are getting into the warm seasons, this is going to be tough to remedy with no load...

I can't see why this is such a hard problem, let the boiler run to 180 then make sure just that zone is calling, if it doesnt see 170+ water at the first radiator within the time it takes to walk up there, you have too much head for that pump or the heat is being diverted, if there are no other valves and it is a straight shot, put a larger pump.... the heat has to go somewhere, even if its just staying in the pipe going up the wall, it will be somewhere, if it stops, that is because it is blocked or too much resistance for the pump...
Im curious to why no one has fixed this yet, I wish it was closer, I would run up there with an alpha and my thermal imager {get the boiler hot and zone cold, then plug the alpha into the wall recepticle and see where the heat goes if anywhere}, I'll bet real money I find the problem inside 20 minutes, whats wrong with these NY guys she is hiring, is it that bad up there rite now, I see a lot of posts on here looking for ny service, may have to open a new branch lol...

For master bath setups

@ April 20, 2013 9:58 PM in Replacing boiler question?

I always pipe the bathroom first with 20% more element than the bedroom{per area}, for example when I built my house, I have a hydro air that runs the master bed and bath, the bath has the same amount of duct terminations as the bedroom when the bedroom is 6 times the size of the bathroom, but there is so much stone in the bathroom and such a huge tub I guessed I would be about rite, and it works out, the bathroom is always a little warmer than the bedroom...

For the op as far as your system it sounds like you need to get a good company out there and get some ideas, I hate to gues with out actually seeing what there for my self and performing heat losses and looking at layouts, there is a lot to it...
I would go with a tt wall hung, and I would pipe it how I drew for you, but for your radiant zones, try to see if the contractor can do it with out using mixing valves. A separate control and plate exchanger could be an option with a 3 way valve letting you use return water...

buderus

@ April 20, 2013 9:50 PM in Quietest oil boiler?

GB142, I have installed sooo many of these, they are great units, I recently switched to TT solo boilers since people are asking for stainless steel, they seem to also be a very nice unit... go propane and don't look back..

Oh c'mon

@ April 20, 2013 9:36 PM in QUESTION FOR THE MONTH

no AC talk yet, its still 30 at night over here... 410a doesn't like high ambients, but recovering, then holding, then flushing the system, and changing the txv, compressor, ect , then nitrogen testing, then vacc-ing it down, then charging it, it takes a lot of time... I have done my share, none of them are fun, although we dont normally get 115* ambients around here... maybe 98* but not very often... I can count on one hand how many triple digit days we have had in my memory..

I agree Paul

@ April 20, 2013 10:43 AM in Replacing boiler question?

The days of a t-stat in every room are over, I like 1 zone per floor {or 1 zone for bedrooms and one for living space, some houses have special circumstances like guest rooms that are only used once a year, sun rooms, ect... My house has an 1100 sq ft guest suite with 2 bedrooms a parlor and full bath, obviously I zoned that off from the rest of the floor, no sense keeping it 70 year round when we use it for 2 months a year {mostly in the summer}.

So OP what is the real zone breakdown 1 for indirect , 1 radiant slab garage, 1 radiant slab living space, and 3 baseboard?

Thanks Chris

@ April 20, 2013 8:48 AM in Pros / Cons of Indirect Water Heater

What do you think about UPS systems, like the APC BR1500G ? I install them on Rinnai units once and a while, mine seems to last around a day if the power goes out, you still have hot water... May last longer it depends how much you use it... I have nothing on my solo 175 at my own home, but I can easily plug it onto the apc since its 20 inches away...

Since you are changing the boiler and repiping anyway

@ April 20, 2013 8:26 AM in Replacing boiler question?

I would go with bumble bees on the supply...

I would need to see how your radiant was piped, it must be getting cooler water than the bb and indirect...

OK, I did a similar install, the house was split between radiant and baseboard with an indirect... The first floor was radiant {retrofit} second was bb {couldnt retro because of ceilings}, they had 6 zones 3 radiant and 3 baseboard....

I piped it with 2 circulators {alphas} and 6 sentry zone valves. 1 circ did the radiant with 3 zone valves and the other did the 3 baseboard loops.
The wiring is where it gets different.... Instead of using a zvc-406 I used a zvc-403 on the low temp zones and a zvc-404 on the high temp zones, and I wired the end switches from each separately to the CH1 and CH2 circuits, I then connected the zvc-404s extra priority zone t-stat connection to the low temp zones endswitch and then onto the boilers ch2 circuit , so they don't call at the same time. So when a low temp zone calls the high temp relay is shut down on priority. So the result is the 2 panels can never call at the same time, because on the trimax control you can set up 2 separate curves allowing you to run one zone at 180 and one at 110 if you want.. BUT when they both call it will revert to 180 and overheat your radiant zones.. So wiring it this way stops that from happening... The downside is the 6 zones can never call at once... So I thought this may be a problem, but the house I installed it in had a heat loss of 67K and the 110 was a little over that... I thought they may have a problem with their second floor not getting heat because the first floor running constantly, in which I had a few ideas to fix it, but they never had an issue, the system warms the entire house, they actually said they noticed no temp differences... I told them {I know them pretty well, they go to our church} that it was experimental and if it caused a problem I would take care of it... But they like it, their programmable t-stats are set to actually turn down the first floor zones at night and turn the upstairs up... I had another trick up my sleeve if it did let the upstairs zones get too cold, I was going to make it so if the second zone called while the low temp was running it opened the zone valves and ran the circ but didnt close the end switch until the radiant was satisfied, so the base board would have at least gotten the low temp water... But heat rises, the house was well insulated and it worked out well, we had a cold winter with no complaints, I expected them to say it dropped a couple degrees here and there, but they said it never did...

And as for the drawing above, it woul change because you have an indirect and low temp radiant... the indirect will be piped off of the primary loop and the 110 has a separate tapping for the indirects supply... you will also need a check valve in there...

What is your actual zone count radiant and baseboard? and I am curious to how you are getting the cooler water to your radiant?

Im thinking with

@ April 19, 2013 9:55 PM in Replacing boiler question?

that many zones unless the houses is HUGE, they must be smaller, so I would think P/S piping over direct?

Chris

@ April 19, 2013 9:50 PM in Pros / Cons of Indirect Water Heater

which one do you use? power conditioner.... I use surgex sa15, but they cost me around $200 and they are nothing fancy... Triangle tube rep told me they have one built in, so I havent been pushing them, but still offer it...

First time

@ April 19, 2013 9:40 PM in Radiator Hot, Thermostat Off WHY?? Triangle Tube Prestige Excellence

did a licensed pro install this, if so its disgusting, first off piped by that window like that contractor should be ashamed... Never mind the everything else.. I have done some excellence boilers, they are the trimax but they look very similar.. I come off with dielectric unions, a vac breaker, mixing valve, I install a thermal x tank, back flow, heat trap both sides and make sure everything is supported and has iso valves... That install is just bare bones and not up to code...

That rusty mess should be redone, it would be worth it for you to get a pro in there that will do it rite, its an absolute shame that you boiler is less than 3 years old and looks like that... It probably wont be cheap, but have someone come in and fix it, if it were me I would take it all apart, clean the top of the boiler, repaint it white, t-tape and dope everything up, 90* that pex at the ceiling and bring all the dhw components {thermal tank, mixing valve, vac brker, ect} down the other side of the unit and then back up to the ceiling...

As far as the zones getting hot, I would have to say the internal valve is sticking, crudded up, or just faulty... Is there a 3 speed circ in the unit? what is it set at?

ENDOT

@ April 19, 2013 9:18 PM in Running A Gas Line Underground

I use all their stuff when burying gas pipe for lp or Natural gas, they have a little double sided chamfer tool they sell with the stuff the preps the yellow plastic pipe... You can buy it pretty much anywhere they sell plumbing supplies..

The best way to do it is use a riser at the house and a riser at the appliance or tanks what ever you are doing... You will need 2 risers{I buy 1" or 3/4" they are 30" vertical rise and 15" horizontal}, the roll of tubing {just run the tool over the ends on both sides one does the inside one does the outside edge, then stick the tubing in like a shark bite}, a tracer wire and I use this stuff its really cheap to buy http://www.labelmaster.com/store/scripts/view-product.cfm?product=H-DWT2Y
heres a link to what the riser looks like http://www.sustainablesupply.com/Endot-1253-91-4604-00-Anodeless-Riser-1-2-In-CTS-p/w180459.htm?gclid=CPKD_cWH2LYCFc5cMgodD2QAtA&CAWELAID=1307361833&cagpspn=pla

Make sure you follow the local codes, as far as distances, practices, and materials... I just did this at my fathers house for his pool heater, I normally sub the buried gas line jobs out to the sprinkler installation guys, they are so fast and efficient at digging pipe, plus they get soooo much less per hour than any machine operator you will ever find, I just do the connections, they do all the real work... :) They made me an 85ft trench 26"'s deep, laid out a few inches of soft sand, laid the pipe in, more sandy stuff, the tracer/tape and covered it up in 2 1/2 hours!!!! under 300 for labor !!!!

Holy Upside down pictures Batman...

@ April 19, 2013 4:19 PM in Replacing boiler question?

So you have 6 or 7 zones? How many sq feet is this home? What is the BTU loss on the smallest zone?

I would swap them circs for something with delta t {Bees if they are in spec with your needs}, and use an 15-55 as you primary pump {I am having great results with them on the TT's, my new go to tt pump setup is Alpha primary {110 has a 3 speed inside it you need rotated flange, I would just put a nipple and set of flanges and put the pump outside the cabinet}and BB secondaries, worx goo'ud, but I have only installed a pair of 60's a few 110s and a couple 175 {one in my home} no 250s or 399s as of yet}......
Now as far as piping goes, just have the installer follow the manual and you should be in good shape {as long as there are no misprints, lol} I would put the pumps on the supply personally. Since you are going with a strainer maybe just jump into a http://www.spirotherm.com/quad/ and not worry about sizing, buy a 1 1/4 spiro therm and pipe it all 1 1/4.... Im starting to warm up to these....

What are these zones going to? Radiant, heat coils, baseboard????

I would have who ever pipes the system redo that, so all the pumps are on the supply, and get rid of that 3/4" return/supply bridge....

If you let us know what they are going to we can let you know the best way to do it, maybe someone may even draw you a picture...


Of course you will need some drains, I use dielectric unions, and isolation flanges on the circs, as well as make sure all other components are isolatable, if you are using an indirect the 110 has a separate port for its supply and then you will need check valves, plus checks in each zone if you are not using the internal or existing units...

Man this is terrible stuff

@ April 19, 2013 7:32 AM in Boston Tragedy Hits Closer To Home

Hope our contributions help...

Prices seem off'

@ April 19, 2013 7:24 AM in Radiant vs Forced Air

I wouldn't trust anyone changing a boiler for $2000, they are most likely going to take your deposit and never be seen again... Even if thats after rebates and incentives, I couldn't install a used boiler that I took out for free for that amount of money....

Anyway, As far as Radiant vs FWA.. Do you have in floor radiant or radiant panels, baseboard, radiators??? If you are comparing a properly installed in floor radiant system to a furnace fired forced warm air system, the in floor radiant is going to win in Comfort and efficiency every time...

Even if you want A/C, unless your radiant is in some way failing {old metal pipe system that is starting to leak, or not properly installed in some way} then I would just install a/c separately {maybe use a unit with a hydro coil for aux.} and get a new boiler;;;

I prefer a boiler with hydro air unit vs a straight forced warm air furnace... Installing duct work in an existing houses is an invasive procedure, and gets costly fast, I wouldnt do it unless you were looking for central AC, in that case its better than window units or mini splits....

Chris makes a good point

@ April 19, 2013 7:13 AM in calculating hot water boiler size

I find with a lot of older houses they are over "elemented", so by doing a proper heat loss room by room and then measuring the baseboard and multiplying it by the amount of btus per foot, you can find the minimum temperature you will need, and the result is you can run your high limit at that lower temp...
I have seen houses with more than twice the baseboard they needed, and you can set the control to run at under 140 and still heat the area fine.. resulting in energy savings and increased comfort. 180* baseboard heat rises to the ceiling much faster than 140* and it takes more energy to heat water to 180 vs -140.... This is common most in older houses, now with the cost of materials new construction seems to have just enough {if that} baseboard...

I pay about the same

@ April 19, 2013 7:04 AM in side arm heat exchanger

for a plate vs side arm {can get both under $200}... I used to use side arms with the outdoor wood boilers{with no domestic pump}, but they are slow and if you have a large load in a short amount of time, you will run out quickly... With a plate exchanger and pump you dont have this problem, its almost instant...

My point is, you can keep the electric tank installed and install an inexpensive indirect {Heat-flo 30}, the results will be much better than any type of plate or sidearm exchanger.. For a little more money you get a smart tank... But you can easily keep the electric tank as an aux. if they have the space... The only reason I would use a plate or side arm exchanger is if they had solar, wood fired, ect and wanted to get the most they could out of the extra energy.. But to fire a gas boiler doesnt make much sense unless you are short on space.... You are much better off with the circulator by the way, I know side arms dont require them they work on convection but you get better results with a circulator and I find they go longer with out clogging with a circ for some reason...

Try to talk your customer into an indirect next to their boiler...

age old question, P vs. T vs. a properly sized fixed

@ April 18, 2013 5:15 PM in I hope I am not beating a dead horse.

I use all 3 where the system calls for it, Delta T circs like the VDT and Bumble bees are great for a running 1 zone that never changes {no valves or adjustments} like a single hydro air, std loop of baseboard, or single radiant circuit. Delta P is a good choice for systems with multiple zones off of one circ or zones with bypass valves, ect where the pressure will change when the demand changes... They seem to work well on primary loops with multiple zones. And fixed circs, are great for when you just need a pump, like an out door stove, low cost hydronic system, ect...

I think if they could make a bumble bee a little cheaper they would be good for 95% of the residential needs, but at twice the price of a 007, a lot of times when a circ goes bad it just makes more sense to throw in a 007...

If you want to keep

@ April 18, 2013 3:08 PM in What Happened to Triangle Tube's

it all up stairs in one small area I would go with a small rinnai tankless and shut that loch boiler down for the sumer months... If that is not an option, I would say with at least a 30ga indirect {smart tank would be a good choice}.. If that doesn't fit, get the largest plate exchanger your boiler will maintain and run directly off one side with a decent mixing valve and a s/s 009{ran by the aquastat} with a recirc loop, for the boiler side run it like a loop of baseboard, its own circulator and relay but instead of a thermostat calling in the control you put an aquastat in the dhw line.

I have done this a bunch of times, it works better with a recriculation loop on your DHW {I use 3/8 or 1/2" pex, very easy to run}{plus you get the benefit of having hot water at your faucet instantly}. I would run a bumble bee on the boiler side and for your zones... Them plate exchangers will amaze you with their output... Problem on a mod con is you really only want that pump to run when you are taking hot water out of it, this will keep low return temps, so you just have to be smart about sensor placement...

Bumble bees

@ April 18, 2013 2:49 PM in Direct Pump TT Solo 110 with 3 zones

may work, are you doing 3 separate circulators or zone valves...

What about the summer?

@ April 18, 2013 8:27 AM in side arm heat exchanger

When you are not running heat are you going to run the boiler just for the electric water tank?

Is cost an issue, because if not an indirect would be a much better way to go. And as far as side arm exchangers I would rather use a brazed plate system... Installs the same way...

When you start to add up the costs, I think you will see a real indirect is the better way to go, by the time you buy the heat exchanger the bronze pump, the check valve, the control {if you are going to run it on its own circ., and all the piping/fittings, I'll bet an indirect is less money and much less work, with no guessing...

I have seen 4" taps for under $400

@ April 18, 2013 7:36 AM in 4 inch pipe tap

But that is still a lot to pay, and you will probably never use it again...

I have up to 2" but no 4" {could have fedexed it back and forth}...

I would explain it to the customer, that they should be ready to install a new boiler but you are going to do your best..
The good news is I have done this a couple times and 4" pipe is very easy because its so large, and since the pipe is rotted that is actually another plus.. I would first soak it in some home made penetrating fluid {acetone and tranny fluid} and then try to twist it out. If it collapses then get down there and file her out.. I use a nice sharp hacksaw blade with the skinny handle cut it before the threads and hammer and chesel it apart on itself... then a dremel tool with a steel brush to clean up the threads, teflon tape and pipe dope should get her done....

I know customers hate to replace old boilers, especially large ones... But when you explain its going to be $1000 to replace that pipe they start thinking about it a little more seriously...
Another note, I had a 2" pipe I did in a boiler that was over 40 years old, and it leaked with a steel nipple, even after chasing it with the tap and doping the heck out of it.... I tried a brass nipple in place of the steel nipple and it never leaked again...

What?

@ April 17, 2013 3:52 PM in Sandy still haunts my home!

a magic switch in the wall, lol I have no idea what he is talking about, maybe a hidden stairway switch, but the unit has power correct? and I would just run a new service line before taking down walls???? Keep on looking for a good tech, they are out there...
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