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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on August 7, 2014

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Can you add a pic?

@ April 8, 2013 7:00 PM in boiler with tankless hot water with additional water take

I take it you have an electric water tank with a potable water circulator circulating water through your tankless coil for storage?   If so you can "plug up the tankless {or just shut it off, depending on how its piped} and run the electric water heater, but that will probably cost more than running the oil burner...

Maybe we can help with why the burner is constantly running? 
Is the aquastat for the tank set to 30* less than the boiler limit? Sometimes the boiler limit is 160 and the tank is set to circulate to 140 {sometimes higher} but the problem is by the time the heat transfers from the boiler to the tankless than from the tankless to the tank you can only get 130 so it just runs constant when it cant satisfy the tank, BUT this depends on a few factors...  After a while the tank should slow down sucking heat out of the boiler when it gets to its max temp...  {hope I said that rite}...
Another thing to consider is that in the summer when you are not using heat you can turn down your limits, this takes some trial and error, but I have customers that have a tankless/tank setup that turn their high temp down to 140 for the summer....

Did you try it

@ April 8, 2013 6:50 PM in Grundfos alpha

in fixed high?  Do you have more than 10 feet of head? I use them on primary loops all the time and they have no problems ramping up there...

Chris

@ April 8, 2013 5:08 PM in Too many options - need help

they don't have to pay for themselves 100% no one is saying that, but they have to pay for the price difference otherwise why bother, and with small heatlosses say 35K BTU's, it won't happen. I did 168 installs last year {well the company I own did :) and I see these things run and I see what people spend on fuel, as well as myself, I own a lot of rental property and obviously maintain them my self, and I have everything in them from mod/cons to gas coal steam boilers {I actually removed the last steam boiler a few months back}... and I can tell you first hand {because I pay them bills} a properly sized cast iron gas boiler {house with 35K btu loss} is just as efficient as a good mod/con... GB142-24 vs WM CGs3 {direct vented, ODR, and delta t circs} in a small new england cape... I had the WM in there for a while and switched it out for the GB when we moved the boiler to the first floor to use the entire basement for storage... I was curious to see the difference and the bills never changed, the math showed degree day for degree day the useage was almost identical...

And sure I have seen cast iron boilers fail inside 10 years too, but none that I installed, I have NEVER had to change a cast iron Buderus or Weil McLain that I installed that was under 10 years old {not an exageration, NEVER!! and we install A LOT of them}... NOW, for mod cons, I have found pleanty of faulty mod cons before 3 years!!!! Weil McLain ultras after a few years {Ill never install another one}, burnhams a few years old and need an HE, we just put an HE in a Utica mod/con that was less than 2 years old.... I can not count how many don't last 10 years!!!! So sure some may last a real long time, but most of them wont, where on the cast iron side its the opposite, and there are A LOT more cast iron boilers out there than mod cons... So you have to take that into consideration to, for every mod con you see you see 15 cast irons..

I don't want to argue, cast iron vs mod con, but I have seen it with my own money, when you are in a small heat load, you will lose with a mod con...

And NOT looking for a 100% payback, just figure in the initial cost over a mod cons cost {installed} and try to get back the difference.... It wont happen, not a big deal, you are rite its your money, and you would rather spend it on your self, I would rather keep it in my pocket than spend it on a boiler.....

Also I have a mod con in the house I live in, 4000+ sq ft living space almost 5000 sq ft heated, and if I didnt do the labor myself, it would never pay for the cost difference.... My boiler install would be $KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK vs a cast iron boiler would have been $KKKKKK, lol.... and I need a good amount of btus, I have a 175 solo installed now and its maybe 10K btu oversized...

Time will tell, I guess...

@ April 7, 2013 10:52 PM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

When the court figures this out for us...

What about the company that made the epoxy, did that get certified, how about the company that made the can the epoxy came in, or the company that sold the epoxy with out posting its limitations in 4 different languages and braille.... Point is, when something like this happens EVERYONE is sued, which is fine, but when you can spend 15+ years in jail for not using the correct pipe on a boiler install, its time to start paying better attention to every detail...

Where does it end? I bet you I can tell who is at fault with just a few pictures of the install and a materials list.. Was this job inspected, did anyone even pull a permit, were the people licensed and insured?

I'll admit back when we were doing a lot of swap outs and conversions {before anyone was venting anything without a chimney}, I never worried about hurting someone with a new boiler... Now with these mod/cons and direct vent boilers, I install hardwired CO's on every job, wired into the boiler circuit... And I also throw another {battery powered} co detector on the first floor or stairway top.... Just add the $78 to the install and sleep a little better... But the most important thing to do it follow the instructions....

Chris

@ April 6, 2013 9:37 AM in Pumping Awa Question

I also use bees on indirects alone, but having the indirect on a zone valve and a few zones calling {with out priority} causes call backs... I find that if you use delta t on an indirect it works great, by itself with a fixed supply temperature... As soon as you start changing the supply temps and flow rates you get problems.... But changing just the flow rates works very well.... I wouldn't want other zones pulling away from it.. DHW priority could work, but I as a rule don't like to put zone valves on indirects, although as I said, priority can cure most of the issues... but this is coming from me, I also don't like using winter heating systems to supply DHW, and a lot of people disagree with that too...

As far as the bumble bee vs the alpha {like I said I don't like delta t on primary loops, I have tried it, its not rite...} and the bee is 15 gpm max and 15 ft head max, the alpha is 22 gpm and 20 ft of head..... Its a stronger pump hands down, I also have used both, I have 3 bees and an alpha on my solo175 at my own home...

Which LLH do you use? link? the cost difference is the big factor for most installs, a few tees, a vent, and a wye strainer cost under $75, even the cheaper taco hydro-separator {and its nothing special has a hi vent on top and steel wool in the bottom with 3 connections lol} is $400!!!! The spiro model I priced for a job about a month ago was around $600!!! That's just not worth the benefit.... even the bee vs 007 {the 007 pumps over 20gpm bee only pumps 15} the price is double, and since taco is only making 40 a day they are tough to find {I have a half dozen in stock but one job could wipe them out}...

Now as far as the circs vs Zone valve debate, its just how I feel, the electrical consumption is BS to me, because although it may indeed use less, its not as much as people say...

If you have 1 circ for 3 zones that circ is going to run longer than any 1 circ if you had 3 separates... Plus the zone valves use energy {albeit not a lot, but some}, so when you start taking these things into consideration the energy difference is not 300%.... Plus the new circs don't use much energy, but when I put a bee on 3 zones and all 3 start calling the watts almost triple anyway, so whats the difference, nothing...

I have installed thousands of heating systems, and I can tell you zone valves have there place, but in a higher-end baseboard, indirect, hydrocoil system is not one of them {as far as I am concerned, as I said everyone does everything different, doesn't mean its wrong, just not the same}...
Just the fact that if that one circ quits the entire building is with out heat is worth the extra cost for me personally, to know that one circulator isn't the difference between me having heat and not....

And its been a while since I did an alpine but I remember them calling for a 0015, not really interested enough to look it up, but I specifically remember 0015 on primaries...

As for radiant mani's and actuators{zone valves} I have done systems that get a 00r for each radiant zone, not all systems use zone valves, I have a lot of systems with the roth shunt setup too... I tend to do radiant one of two ways, I either run a tankless water heater {or mod/con} with a circ on each zone and a 3 way zone valve on the return for diversion incase the delta closes up, or I run the radiant as its own system with a plate exchanger then I will use a single circ with zone valves for each manifold... I think thats what you were referring to and I hope I said that rite...

Now as far as circuit setters, I only use them when they are needed, again, COST, they are around a $100 each, so no I will not set them in every install just to set the correct flow, Ill pick the closest circulator to get the job done...

I'm not arguing that zone valves are a terrible idea, just that I would rather have 3 circs vs 1 circ and 3 zone valves.... I have been using the new style tacos zv's for a while now {taco is rite down the road here we tend to get new stuff on the shelves before the rest of the world, I own a 3 family rental property 125 feet from Tacos front door!!!} and they are nice, a lot nicer than the golds, but now the circs got a lot nicer too so its kind of a wash, bb vs zone valve I'm going circs everytime....

Edit - I just looked at the flow charts you linked, the 080 wants 7.3 gpm and 14.7 ft head for 25* delta, the bee barely pumps at 14.7.... and it says recommended pump is a 0015 which is a remember correctly almost mimics an alpha 15-55 {highs}, no were near the bees highs, the bee has a straight 15-15 curve... I have to disagree with you, I don't think a bee would be the rite choice, actually even though the alpha is much closer its still less powerful than a 0015 throughout the curve....
heres a revised supplement shows a 0010, which sounds like overkill, I think they are talking about on a loaded loop not primary...
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/yhst-13738724167386/Alpine-Recommended-Circulator-Models-Supplement.pdf

but they show a chart with the loss and flow, it shows that when you get around 7 gpm through the heat exchanger you will be around 10 ft of head, and if you check you BB chart, thats not going to happen but the alpha will get you there....

Whenever

@ April 6, 2013 8:35 AM in wood boiler pump

I install wood boilers I wire the pump into the fan circuit so you cant run it with out running the pump.... Not a good idea to forget that pump off, all that energy with no where to go isn't a good thing.... If you do indeed have the open loop wood heater piped into your system with no exchanger {which shouldn't be the case} your zone circ probably pulled the heat in.... I would have to see the piping to make any other assumptions on what caused the heat to move from the stove to the boiler...

nah.

@ April 6, 2013 8:07 AM in Pumping Awa Question

I don't think a bumble bee will do it even on locked high, if I remember correctly they want a 0015 on that units primary side.. I would think an alpha on high would get the job done, plus I dont run delta t on primary side, that will not work rite {ask me how I know, lol}... Pressure variable like the alpha will work, and the alpha is now my go to primary size pump when it fits and I think the 15-55 will just do it for the 080... You will have to check a chart or two to figure this out... You don't want to slow down the flow on your primary side, this will create problems, you will short cycle, overheat, ect... Keep that flow going around and let the zones take what they need out of the supply side returning as much cold return water as they can...

as for zone valves and delta t circs, I never seen this benefit {again ask me how I know}, the delta t circ will change the flow for all 5 zones depending on the return temp and some return temps are going to be warmer than others ,this will also create havok for an indirect... I also don't like zone valves {for a lot of reasons} IMO, the best way to zone is check valves and separate circulators, this allows you to control the zones delta individually, plus if your circ dies, you don't lose heat in the entire house...

And as far as a low loss header, I don't think the alpine ever came with one {buderus did} but adding a hydro separator is always nice, but the cost is a big factor to what real worked benefits it has over closely spaced tees... I have done plenty systems with them, I used the tacos on smaller jobs, and I have seen them in the field {normally larger systems}. And I don't see a difference, the only things they offer are air separation and sediment control.. a handful of tees will do the same thing for a lot less money... now if they make a nice cheap one for $65 {1" and 1 1/4"} that would be worth it... Spirovent has one but its not readily avalable as for as I know...

OK, combi unit

@ April 5, 2013 9:01 PM in Ground water temp for On-demand hotwater in Alaska

Im going to have to agree with Swei, add a bronze or ss circulator and an electric water heater, if you have the funds maybe a hybrid water heater and then in the summer turn the boiler off and use the hybrid function.... Always nice to have aux. DHW too...

Ummm.

@ April 5, 2013 8:56 PM in More efficient water heater.

I think he seen that at home depot, they have been selling them for 5 years, lol...

Hmmm, swapping an alp150 for an alp080?

@ April 5, 2013 8:54 PM in Pumping Awa Question

That boiler is over $1100 less boiler.. you are obviously not happy with the boiler install and its good they are willing to return and make it rite, but chances are you are going to end up with less than you have rite now... I think I would keep the oversized boiler unless I was getting the price difference back.... But on the other had I would rather have aboiler that mods down to 16K vs 30K depending on the zone sizes and styles {a hydro air sucks the heat out of your loops fast but a radiant circuit is slower}...

If they are willing to repipe, have them use bumble bee circs and an alpha 15-55 on the primary, I like to pull the DHW circ and return off of the primary loop before the closely spaced tees, and change then have them locate the vent where you want it and what ever else you found wrong, then maybe it would be worth the swap to the smaller unit...
Alpines are decent units, I always installed the gb's over them and now the TT solos, but its a well made good looking unit...

Hmmm, swapping an alp150 for an alp080?

@ April 5, 2013 8:53 PM in Pumping Awa Question

That boiler is over $1100 less boiler.. you are obviously not happy with the boiler install and its good they are willing to return and make it rite, but chances are you are going to end up with less than you have rite now... I think I would keep the oversized boiler unless I was getting the price difference back.... But on the other had I would rather have aboiler that mods down to 16K vs 30K depending on the zone sizes and styles {a hydro air sucks the heat out of your loops fast but a radiant circuit is slower}...

If they are willing to repipe, have them use bumble bee circs and an alpha 15-55 on the primary, I like to pull the DHW circ and return off of the primary loop before the closely spaced tees, and change then have them locate the vent where you want it and what ever else you found wrong, then maybe it would be worth the swap to the smaller unit...
Alpines are decent units, I always installed the gb's over them and now the TT solos, but its a well made good looking unit...

terrible stuff

@ April 5, 2013 7:19 AM in Colorado Monoxide Case Moves Toward Trial

you need to follow the rules when it comes to CO, always clean, prime, and glue your joints, always install a hard wired CO {not wired into the boiler circuit}, always hang the boiler well, and hang your pipes secure, always follow the spacing requirements, ect... And you still can't bet your life that nothing will fail and someone will get hurt or worse... I have seen some crazy practices, and always think to myself, "if these contractors don't care about their customers safety, don't they realize they will go to jail and lose everything if they hurt someone else"....
I am reminded of the picture that used to hang in RE micheals of the Pressure relief valve coming off the boiler and pointing down into a toy box full of toys {about 3ft off the ground}

T-stat technology

@ April 5, 2013 7:12 AM in Pumping Awa Question

is just starting to come around, I would like to see something with a central panel and wireless sensors for each zone, internet connectivity for smart phone control, wireless hello/goodby switches {being able to push a button on your way out the door and having your t-stat drop back to a lower temp and then when you are on your way back pushing a button on your cell phone to turn it back on so its warm by the time you get home}, also a smart control that managed boiler run times would be nice -comfort may suffer a bit, but having a control that will manage your run times with some degree of "thinking" would be nice, so if all zones are set to 70* and one falls down to 69.0, and another is 69.6 with the rest 70* it will wait until all fall down before it kicks the boiler on {to a maximum setpoint, say 1.9*}, then once the boiler is on it will heat all zones to 70.9 even if they were already at 70.0 when the first cold zone called...

I read an article a while back, that showed a "smart" hydronic system, every room was on its own zone with 3 way zone valves all over the place, the system would divert warm return water to other rooms, run the system forwards and backwards, send exactly the needed temp and quantity of water to each zone as it was needed, all running off of 2 mod/cons {they were different sizes} and it showed one {the smaller of the two} could mod down to 6K BTU's {which matched the smallest zones heat loss on an average winter day instead of our design day}. But what interested me was the smaller boiler had a heatpump feature to satisfy the low heat needs... This was a drawn out system, nothing in production, and I believe it was Burnhams ideas...

I like how you talk

@ April 4, 2013 8:15 PM in Pumping Awa Question

sounds smott... lol, If you are ever in CT, RI, MA area I'm giving you a job, Swei, lol

lol I noticed the m's

@ April 4, 2013 8:12 PM in Heating a 5 x 10m room to constant 48 degrees

that's why i stared clear of this one, lol... Too much math for me, I have a hard enough time keeping track of inches and feet, never mind that guy Newton Metre and his sister Joule..

I would say the best way to heat a room like this is with constant air circulation a good old fashioned hydro air powered by a modulating condensing boiler, install a bumble bee with the sensor in the duct work, a little creative control setup and you will keep that room +-1/2*.... Just have to figure out the heat loss.... I would use a first co variable spped unit and install a heat pump on the A coil, this way when it was 50+ out side you would be running very efficient.... And you would have A/c for days it was needed.....
Figure a Traingle Tube Solo 110 with a 5 ton HXBX first co and an armstrong hp18lt heat pump would be a good start, but that stuffs not cheap...

Which unit

@ April 4, 2013 7:57 PM in Ground water temp for On-demand hotwater in Alaska

There are simple ways to raise the temp but which is going to make sense?

What unit do you have {link me}?
Natural gas propane?

What is your incoming temp?

Most gas tankless units don't like high incoming temps and with a plate exchanger you will get high temps, even if you pipe it on the boiler return {and you need to be careful not to cool the return too much}...

I am thinking you need a larger tankless unit... its easy to figure out, how many gpm do you use, what is your incoming temp, and what outgoing temp do you want?

My water comes in around 45* and my tankless is set at 115 in the winter thats a 70 degree delta.... which a larger tankless 199K btu unit should make around 5.5gpm {ru98i}... So even if you come in 33* and wanted 120 an ru98i would give you over 4 gpm.... That's still a lot of hot water, that's a shower and a couple faucets running full hot...

that may be a better option than preheating the water, plate exchangers aren't the longest lasting pieces of equipment and they aren't real cheap {plus you should get one marked nsf or for potable water, low lead}...

In my hunting cabin I only have a tiny electric water heater and the incoming water is COLD, so I run the water through a piece of baseboard near the wood stove before it goes to the water heater, it works really good... But when I take heating buddies up hunting, they always ask why I have baseboard 7 feet off the foor....

Also look into high sierra shower heads, I love these things... they stretch your hot water out a lot...

Down draft

@ April 4, 2013 7:32 PM in If you were designing a heating system for dream house/dream shop, what would it be and what design tweaks would you take to maximize efficiency?

This could get tricky with in slab radiant, but a nice down draft system would be ideal.

I designed one in a small building, I used a down draft grate along 2 of the outside walls {similar to a floor drain 9"s wide X 12 feet long strong enough to drive a car on}, then used a pair of fan units and a pair of HRV units for makeup air {which also recovered the heat energy of the outgoing air} ... It was a home garage 3 car that he used for building custom cabinets and between the fumes and dust his wife didnt want him doing it in the new house so when he was building he had me do the system to see if it would help, I made no promises but it has worked out better than even I expected... I originally installed air filter on the outside so he didnt blow dust in his driveway, but they were clogging too fast, so we installed some strategically bent sheet metal and a 50 gallon drum, kind of like a trap and drop system, worked good, but I can't take credit for the dust trap system that was all my empolyees doing, he seen it before when he worked on restaurant grease traps years ago...

I wan't to see more pics

@ April 4, 2013 4:33 PM in Pumping Awa Question

Paul I see more and more guys using zone valves over circulators, but I just can not bring myself to make the jump, sure I use a lot of zone valves in my jobs, but on the mid to high end jobs I almost always use circulators, either alphas, bumble bees or delta t's, ect... I know a lot of guys mention the power usage but for the amount all the zones are calling at once and the power zone valves use, I cant imagine the power savings are very much.... I like a bumble bee on every zone....

OP, now you see how most pros are going to do things different, it happens every job, sometimes my guys will finish a job and Ill walk in and say I wouldn't have done that, that way, is it worth changing {hardly ever} will it work, yep, just not the way I would have done it....

Heres the thing?

@ April 4, 2013 9:30 AM in Pumping Awa Question

We all install things differently, that being said I have seen thousands of systems with circs on the return side {some guys swear by the practice, because it allows the circulators to operate under cooler conditions} and them systems have worked for a long time... What I am trying to say is sometimes there are 3 ways to get something to work, the rite way, the wrong way and the way you wouldn't have done it, but all 3 ways can work....

Now I have had customers call me after an install and tell me I didn't do it rite because "their cousin is a plumber" or they "read on the internet" or they "seen at their friends house" and I can tell you first hand its not a good feeling. It doesn't happen often but through out the years it has happened... I just had a women call me because when she ran out of oil {on a boiler I installed 4 years ago} and had to get her boiler primed the oil truck driver that primed it said that I should have installed a filter at the burner {which is non sense}, but it still got me a call that I had to deal with, I explained that I like to filter the oil before the oil line as close to the tank as possible and the way I did the install was to the best of my experience and education... It was good enough for her, but its a pain in the ass... And the other thing is I was not going over to change it unless she wanted to pay me to do so...

Anyway now onto your system, can we have some more info and pictures? What kind of system is it{forced hot water, radiant, ect?}, what boiler, ect?

Pics of the boiler and piping would help a lot...

As far as PS piping, I just stated in another post about this, everyone has their own method.... If it is going to create a lot of extra fittings, I wont space my 90's out of the closely spaced tees and the systems always work and work good, I have done it both by the book and by the job and both work the same... Now on the other hand I have also seen it piped wrong and not work... sooooo... which is yours?

Spare parts?

@ April 3, 2013 2:01 PM in Spare parts for Carlin EZ-Gas Burner

I guess if you have the spare money it can't hurt, but where do you draw the line, a replacement burner motor, ignitor, gas valve, Primary control, APS, there isn't much to the burner and not many parts that are cheap enough to throw in a box "just incase". For $600 you can buy an entire new burner, where $600 in separate parts isn't going to get you everything....


As far as parts not being available, I don't see that happening, its all pretty basic stuff...

If you burner is in good shape, the best thing you can do to be proactive about service is yearly maintenance, get the unit cleaned tuned and checked out by a decent pro each year and you will be fine...

If no one is

@ April 2, 2013 6:06 AM in American Standard Arcoliner Hot Water Boiler Maintenance

occupying the building and the outside temps are not below 32* I would shut the system down, why heat the house when no one is there?

Which utica

@ April 1, 2013 8:26 PM in Hot water loop off steam boiler

Star fire 3?

Take some pics...

I do this different depending on whats there, I just did one, I pulled off of the drain {installed a tee where the drain was} and into the return pipe {cut the pipe coming out of the boiler install a tee}... I have seen them all different ways including the glass gauge ports, but not the best idea... I have even seen them piped back in the pop safety.... not rite..
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