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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on April 16, 2014

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Sorry steamhead

@ March 17, 2013 1:34 PM in IS THIS ENTRAN PIPING

I moved that post to its own topic, I goofed by putting it in here..

Do you sell your GAS customers on Indirect or tankless?

@ March 17, 2013 1:20 PM in Do you sell your GAS customers on Indirect or tankless?

{Sorry I added this to another thread by accident meant for this to be anew thread}
I am curious about what other contractors recommend to their customers...

I install a lot of indirects {mostly TT Phase 3 smart tanks {I keep a 40, 50, and 60 in stock at all times}, but I always try to sell the customer on a condensing Tankless unit {also stock a couple each of the ru98s, ru80's and r75i's}.
The installs for the most part cost around the same and consume around the same amount of time, the profit is around the same, but the tankless is a little easier of a sell...

The only times I don't push towards tankless is when there is no gas {If the oil boiler is old, I will recommend propane but that is a hard sell}, if the venting is going to be a real problem {doesn't happen often but some houses are nearly impossible with windows and walkways everywhere and no closets to go up, also if they are replacing an existing indirect with warranty left or one that is still in production and doesn't need much retrofitting I will recommend an indirect...
I also show the customers that is all I now use in my own properties, although in my house I am going to use a hybrid for the summers now, since the rebates make the unit free and it will cool the basement at the same time... But most customers aren't going to go with dual DHW systems...
So what do you lean your customers too and why?



Steamhead replied-
Do you take
venting clearances- windows, doors, snow line- into account for those condensing units?

Not sure where you are, but here in Baltimore when we have a real winter we've been known to get up to three feet of snow. Yet I frequently see PVC vent pipes sticking out maybe a foot above grade. If these things get blocked and the unit doesn't shut down, the results could be tragic. You can't fix stupid............

My reply to Steamhead- Yes we have to pull permits and do the job to code obviously, or we would be putting people in danger and I'm sure the result would be a lot of civil and wrongfull death suits...

I have seen units "snowed over" and some of which I have installed {this was the first year of that}, but with the blizzard that just passed through here we had drifts that were 8ft high so that is inevitable, BUT that being said 5 minutes with a shovel and the unit is back up and running, I have seen far more chimney failures lead to property damage than "snowed over" direct vent systems.. I have also never seen a clogged driect vent system not shut off, even if the safeties fail, the intake and exhaust being clogged will stop combustion pretty fast, the units are sealed on the combustion side, so unless the pipe is broken off in the building you won't get co, and the chances of a pipe breaking off and venting in the building is just as if not more likely with a natural draft system than a 90+ {since 90+ are sched 40 and ND systems are 26g sheetmetal with screwed fittings}...

I know the new systems have there downfalls the biggest one being- having not been around long, but we have to embrace the future technology at some point or we would all be shoveling coal or worse "freezing"... That being said, the new systems are going to lead to more work for us the contractors because the DIY and shade-tree guys are {or should be} afraid to touch the stuff... So I don't mind it...

...

@ March 17, 2013 10:20 AM in IS THIS ENTRAN PIPING

...

Sorry to hear

@ March 17, 2013 8:24 AM in IS THIS ENTRAN PIPING

about you daughters heating issues. One of the down falls of radiant heat is covered tube repairs are almost impossible. I fear there isn't much you can legally do, but I would start by contacting the real estate agent and her finance institution and request their advice. They should know who if anyone could be held responsible, such as the previous owner, material manufacurer, or the company that did the home inspection.

How long ago did they close on the property? Was this a foreclosure or private sale? Did the seller sign a disclosure statement?

Another option would be your daughters home owners insurance, its worth reading through the policy to see if the damage can be worded to be covered, sometimes they will cover the repairs if it was caused by freezing, flooding, impact damage, ect. I had a customer that had a leaking chlorine container ruin his radiant tubing {5 ga bucket of pool chemical}, the insurance paid over $10K for it to be ripped up and repaired.

Hope this info helps Glen, I hope your daughters luck changes for the better...

I have seen and

@ March 17, 2013 12:55 AM in rinnai combi boiler

Installed a few Q series boilers from Rinnai they are decent but I prefer the buderus GB and Triangle tube solo over them.. I have looked at the e series which is what I think you are asking about unless they came out with another combi or you mean the larger Q {which to me makes no sense}, if I remember correctly they made a 70K btu model with a plate exchanger for dhw, I think the dhw was around 2 gallons with a 75* delta t {thats what we normally need for dhw, since incoming water is around 50 and most users want 120-125}.

So that means you can run 1 shower with a low flow 2.5gpm head only if you mix.. Not really enough hot water for most homes... Now if this unit had an output of 35K BTU with 2.5gpm dhw there would be a larger market for it, but that obviously isnt going to happen... You want your DHW to be able to run everything you run at once, most households need at least 4gpm...

I tend to stay away from combi units because of this, most houses that need 70K btu's are around 2300sq ft and have 2.5 to 3 bathrooms, so while the heat needs would be met the internal plate exchanger would only be good for aux/backup DHW at best...

I recommend a stand alone rinnai tankless water heater with a stand alone heating boiler, I sell a lot of indirects to, but I have personally seen the savings between an indirect and a tankless on demand unit even when hooked to a mod/con...

Do yourself a favor and make sure you plan before you purchase, you want to get an accurate heatloss plus know exactly how many gpm of dhw you need before you go any further... Then we will be able to let you know what to look into...

I have seen a lot of systems like that

@ March 16, 2013 7:44 PM in weird monoflo?

just cut in your new radiator and install a couple globe valves {I put one on the main and the branch}

Not a huge deal

@ March 16, 2013 7:34 PM in Anyone else use this trio setup?

with the smoke pipe, I have a bad habit of looking at peoples work and thing about what I would do different, I think its from looking at my employees work all the time... But it looks good, are you a pro or DIY? I also like to put the exp tank at least 18" away from the smoke pipe, they seem to last longer and some inspectors will mention it if they are close to the heat....

The Riello was a good choice, the Becketts are great burners and have their place but their static pressure isnt a good match for a triple pass boiler.... I like to install tiger loops with Riellos too especially if its an overhead line..

Sounds good..

@ March 16, 2013 7:17 PM in propane wall mount boiler

I will call you this week, I am actually installing 3 Rinnai units in a multi family off of Taunton Ave in east providence on wednesday I believe... That should be pretty close by you...

Water furnace

@ March 16, 2013 7:09 PM in Pond loop heat pump

I have had good luck with them, prices are OK, there is cheaper stuff out there but for residential I like water furnace {for commercial Climate master is hard to beat}. I would buy what you can get locally because then you will most likely be able to get local parts support for that brand also...

I have a few I service

@ March 16, 2013 10:55 AM in Anyone else use this trio setup?

Nice job on the install, you may want to install a tee on the bottom of that smoke pipe, I would have kicked it about 24" out of the ceiling, with an offset and a tee then 90'ed down into a tee for the draft control then into the unit, smoke pipe looks like it sees its share or moisture...

What burner did you choose they run very well with the Riello but the units with Beckets seem to be trouble...

I haven't installed any since we use Buderus but the last time I checked pricing the Buderus was less expensive, maybe Ill have to look back into them... I wish they made a tiny sub 60K btu oil fired model...

Which one Tim?

@ March 16, 2013 7:02 AM in propane wall mount boiler

LOL, I Have a few companies, Sure Fire mechanical, EBD Mechanical {Efficient By Design}, Spotlessduct.com, IM-scape, plus I own a real estate company for the rental properties, and I just sold my deli.

I tried to give you a call the week before last Tim, but didn't get through, I have 2 that I want to send for the gas classes, between busy seasons, which is normally end of August beginning of September for us...

How long its going to last depends

@ March 15, 2013 8:11 PM in propane wall mount boiler

on a lot of factors.... I have tossed trinity units that look brand new.. I am hoping these new mod cons that are out now will last at least 25 years, but its not likely.... I think you need a board but you need a tech out there that trinity will talk through figuring out...

...

@ March 15, 2013 8:03 PM in Pond loop heat pump

...

I have done a few pond systems

@ March 15, 2013 8:03 PM in Pond loop heat pump

They work very well and they are definitely cost effective since you save the drilling costs... Although some systems need long trenches to the source {I have a sprinkler company that does my trenching}.

If I were you I wouldnt get crazy about reinventing the wheel, its a simple system...

First step is to get a heat loss for each zone.

Figure out what size unit and what unit you are going to purchase.

Check the specs on what that specific unit wants as far as tubing, run that tubing install your indoor units, and your done... EZ PZ Lemon squeEZy

I learn from my mistakes, J

@ March 14, 2013 9:08 PM in New Modcon old cast iron radiator system

LOL, I installed a GB142 on a radiator system, it was a simple install, and we did it in the summer time so we had time to clean the system good... I cleaned it good, but even after letting it soak, high pressure purging it, heating them to well over 200 and then blasting it through, finally all came out clean, or so I thought, long story short, I ended up replacing all the piping and radiators just to make the service calls stop, and that was after removing every radiator and pressure blasting them with my k1 steam cleaner in the driveway...

I now recommend std boilers with all the bells and whistles of course{ODR, delta t circs, ect} when ever Im looking at a house full of black pipe and fhw radiators, although if the customer wants a mod/con I will do it, but wont be happy about it...

Icesailer

@ March 14, 2013 8:59 PM in propane wall mount boiler

what fun is fixing an eight year old boiler, replace that baby and save the bathwater for the new one, this is America....

I have pulled my hair out with Trinity units, I had one they sent me 2 identical boards for, with a note that said "one of these should work" ? On the other hand I have figured them all out, some did get changed out due to the customer just being fed up {between parts availability, cost of parts, and just plain ole' aggravation}. I will say you most likely need a board, I looked back in my service records because I remembered a customer with a similar problem, unit coded when ever it was really cold, worked OK in mild climate but when you really needed it it would quit... Disconnecting the ODS would fix the problem, and tech support told us it was the board, the customer paid and we never heard back, that is a lot better than the cost of a new unit...

+1

@ March 14, 2013 5:30 PM in New Modcon old cast iron radiator system

On the Sential Products, and I add a wye strainer to each zone return and the primary loop return, flush and then schedule to return to reflush if the customer wants to incur the costs until it is clean... but only for old systems with a lot of iron components, most of the sstems I do now have all copper,pex,brass so its not a huge issue.... I like using cast iron boilers for radiator systems....

Need a heat loss

@ March 14, 2013 7:09 AM in propane wall mount boiler

Only way to advise you on what boiler to replace the trinity with is to look at your heat loss, with out we are all just guessing, and that is probably where you went wrong with the grossly over-sized trinity....

Figure out your heat loss number, and let us know what you have for dhw and someone will make a recommendation...

Although keep in mind, I would rather have a contractor that installed the boiler he is familiar with that a contractor install something he is not familiar with because a board of guys says that is the one to buy....

Like I said earlier tt solos are nice, but you want a ttech that has gone through the training and knows the product....

good points

@ March 13, 2013 6:12 PM in propane wall mount boiler

I don't like using the primary boiler for DHW, even with a mod/con, I would much rather have some sort of direct fired unit like a tankless when possible... I see the best efficiency results when the boiler is sized correctly, with the radiation oversized, an outdoor reset will help with the "oversized every other day of the year" issues as will a delta t circualtor.... this handfull of components will let the system make up for being oversized 90% of the heating season...

Now as for steam I have a tech that screwed me on 3 steam boiler replacements, before I caught what he was doing, he was oversizing them and causing havok with call backs, noisy pipes, constant short cycling, high oil bills... For some reason the gas steam systems he did were not as much of an issue, but the 3 oils turned into a nightmare, I ended up changing one for the correct size at my cost... He put 5 section where I put a 3 section...

You are going to continue to hear the word

@ March 13, 2013 12:33 PM in propane wall mount boiler

SIZING, you need to figure out your buildings heat loss, unless you have 40ft ceilings and glass walls or a market style reach in freezer your current boiler is oversized, probably to the tune of 65K BTUs...

There are a few heat loss calculators you can do the math your self to figure it out, some 3000 sq ft homes I have seen were between 65K and 85K BTU..

As far as which boiler to use I have been pretty impressed with the Triangle Tube Prestige Solo units with the new control....

To figure out your system we will need to know what you use for dhw how many zones your water temps, a HEAT LOSS number ,ect...

I am not a fan of them trinity units at all... and as far as the cycling "a lot" on cold days, that is not what it is supposed to do, on the coldest day {your design day} it should never shut off... Now will this be the case, at some point it will, most heat loss calcs are higher than is actually needed anyway...

Drawing

@ March 13, 2013 12:06 PM in Backup boiler piping for solar drainback system

can you make a fast paint drawing of what you have and want to do? I think I did something similar about 2 years ago...

I would love to see some drawings and pics

@ March 13, 2013 9:05 AM in unusual use for a cast iron radiator

I love designing wood boiler systems, used to do a lot of them but now most areas outlawed them so not as many going in...

I designed my fathers system with taco 1400 pumps {ebay $70}, 80 plate exchangers {$150 ebay}, a 115 gallon Heat-flo storage tanks {$700}, a few valves -Mixing and diverting, some relays and aquastats... runs his radiant, indirect, and water air modines... The entire wood boiler portion only cost around $2000 in materiels {not counting the boiler} and that was 2 of everything 2 tanks, 2 pumps 2 exchangers ect... the boiler had 2 1=1/4" sets of lines so we used them all...

I woujld glass bead the radiator surface for better transfer, but still don't know how well they will work, I would do a small test with one and see what kind of return temps you get compared to you supply temps, then you will know about how much heat they will let you suck out... If you go in 190 and come out 180 probably not a great method to use..
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