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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on April 18, 2014

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Received my books today

@ April 11, 2014 10:14 PM in Spoke with Deb at Heating Help today

GREAT, here with time to spare, now I have to stop myself from reading them before we leave, won't be hard since I have 3 days of work to get done in 5 hours...

Thanks again to HH for helping make my time with in-laws a little more bearable...

Service

@ April 11, 2014 10:10 PM in My first worn out Rinnai unit...

I have not touched that unit since I installed it, it is vented through the roof {old chimney as chase}, installed correctly and exactly as Rinnai directs...
One of my rental properties {was living there 10 years ago} has the first Rinnai unit that RE Mikes' of RI received installed in it, I have never flushed it, serviced it {except for a control that was mounted by the kitchen sink {the tenants soaked it}, or had an issue with it...

I have installed many and serviced many and over the years here is what I have noticed...

Water quality- the better the water the better shape the HX stays in, install a basic filter before the unit and direct the customer to flush it or call for an annual service if there is a h2o quality issue..

Propane and close delta's, if you have long run times with low fire rates and propane, the units will soot up and need to be cleaned. I found this on units used for space heating... I have tried a few things and found an aquastat with a 3 way zone valve can be used to direct water too warm back to the heat emitters until it is cool enough to make the boiler fire higher, I have also played with delta tee circs which is a lot more simple and works well too...

GAS- you need it, with out it, code 12.................................................

Venting and condensate, follow the instructions, not a hard premise but any units I seen fail, have been vented wrong...

last is the customer- Explain the unit, make the flaws sound worse than they are, if they want the unit they will be happy with it, if they are on the fence, give them a tank... There have been many conversations about savings, and I use one in my own home and most of my properties, I have a bunch of posts talking about what I like and dont like about them, but they have been good to me over all.

I have used them for everything from the basic residential dhw system to a hybrid hydro air heater, which works very well, hydro air suck the energy out of water very fast, so for very short money you can have a modulating condensing 96% water furnace, very simple... I did a job 2 years ago with an ru80i feeding a 5 ton hb-xb with an additional hot water coil ontop of it, the areas heat loss is around 140K BTU, they switched from a gas furnaces {couldn't keep the furnace because the space has a garage door}. The owner of the building is a stickler for keeping records and comparing costs, and he said he is saving rite under 15% from what the furnace cost to run, I told him I thought it would use more energy than the furnace, and I really thought it would, but he did the math many times and said a solid 15% across the board...

I don't push them for space heating simply because they are not ideal for it, a boiler is a much better choice, but a boiler with 110K BTU output can cost 5 times what a rinnai costs, I can not count how many radiant systems I have used them on, including our building...

So anyway, I can talk about this stuff all night, the Rinnai Tanklesses are a good choice your company will do well with them, I am not a huge fan of the new hybrid they introduced, even though I have no experience with it yet, I feel like I can design something better for less money, its a small rinnai unit with a storage tank.... I have been thinking about an american 50 ga hybrid with a Rinnai RU98 and small ss pump best of both worlds, design a control to run the hybrid when the outdoor temp is high run the tankless when its low, use the tank as storage during certain hours when use is heavy and during the off hours the unit acts like a normal tankless and does nothing... The tank can give the tankless a good amount of prestage storage and or post tankless storage for recircs and faster hot water..

My first worn out Rinnai unit...

@ April 11, 2014 6:46 PM in My first worn out Rinnai unit...

I have been installing Rinnai tanklesses since they were available to me, one of the first installs I did was a friend of my mothers, she owns a salon and lives in the apartment above her shop... She has 2 daughters {1 no longer lives there but did when I installed the unit}, so this unit got a work out, it had the normal 3 person household load plus a 4 chair salon running all day...

The unit is the old r53 I installed in 2003, the 10 year warranty is up {and this was commercial so 5 years is long since passed}, and although all the unit needs is a HX, she just wants a new one, before the Rinnai unit she used to change 50 ga gas tanks every 3-5 years, once she had a tank last 18 months!!! So for this to last 10 years she is happy..

I ordered her a v75i and my tech is going to install it Monday... She is going to probably have to pay 1 hour of labor {if it takes him longer to unflange hers, bolt the new one on the wall, and check the pressures and combustion there is something wrong} and the cost of a new unit, which I havent ever bought a V series so not sure what they cost...

I am going to knock of $50 for her old unit since it has a ton of good working parts in it, may bail out another one of my customers some day...

good stuff...

@ April 9, 2014 8:33 PM in Thanks,Dan H.!

Well done, Dan..

that is the T-loop ultra

@ April 9, 2014 8:31 PM in Top of tank oil filter

I was talking about in my above post, all one unit, comes with a gauge, use braided fuel lines from the TL to the pump and it will look nice, and still allow you to open the chamber for service with out disturbing hard copper lines... The stainless hoses are available at most supply houses, they are similar to what Buderus packages with their G115 and G215 boilers...

So run 3/8" encapsulated copper from the tank to the TL, then the double braided lines from the tl to the pump connections... The tl comes with a wall bracket, I have done it many times it looks very nice when done and works very well... good luck...

Burner size

@ April 9, 2014 8:16 PM in Is my steam boiler way oversized?

I would call Carlin {I am starting to use them more and more}, or maybe a Power Flame J15 ... http://data.powerflame.com/support/supportdocs/Catalog/pdf/type-ja/JAHTD-Bulletin.pdf
or http://www.carlincombustion.com/gas-oil-burner-products/burners/commercial-burners-gas-fired/201-gas-burner/ I just ordered one of these for another job...
I think I would lean towards the carlin, but make sure it will be ok in that boiler first, I never personally installed that one... Tim McElwain under the gas topics would be the best to tell you which burner to use, that is who I would call to ask... He has probably installed one or knows of someone who has already in a similar situation...

I would still put it at the burner...

@ April 9, 2014 6:14 PM in Top of tank oil filter

I would have to see a picture, it doesn't have to be super close, just in the burner room, use stainless flex lines from the t-loop ultra to the pump and bolt the t-loop where ever it will fit.... There has to be some clearance there, I can not picture a ci gold jammed into a closet as they are not z/c units...

You'll be stepping over $100.00 bills to pick up a possible hand full of dimes.

@ April 9, 2014 6:08 PM in Recirc Line

depending on the size of your hand this could be profitable, key is to step in gum, then step on the $100 bill so it sticks to your shoe, then also pick up the handful of dimes.. Win Win...


If his existing recirc pump is on its way out, noisy and inefficient, than changing it wouldn't be a terrible idea, I do see where you are going with this, unless his house is very loose and 5K+ sq ft he is most likely over sized on the heating side.

As a pro this is nothing I am not used to seeing, I almost look forward to turning the basement corner of a 10 year old, 2050 sq ft, well insulated x6 construction, raised ranch and seeing the brand new Intrepid TR50 sitting there, this happened to me about 2 months ago, that slant fin tr50 will fire up to around 350K BTU's, and this houses heatloss is 60K TOPS... They pulled out a Burnham that was leaking and someone either had this monster sitting in their shop or was just asleep at the wheel, sad to say its not the most over sized appliance I have ever seen either... I replaced a pair of 700K BTU boilers in a small motel with a single 480K BTU unit, 5 years ago and to date it has never not kept up... One of the things that separates the good from the not so good in our business is the heat loss..

If I were doing the job

@ April 9, 2014 4:52 PM in Is my steam boiler way oversized?

I would try to talk you into getting NG if it is available first off... {check costs to bring in service and make chimney work}...

Then I would contact US and see what the cost of new rods, jacket side panels, seal, ect looks like.

Then contact Carlin for a gas burner...

I would also repipe everything in your pictures, and insulate EVERYTHING.. Get the piping rite for what is there, kind of a start over and see where it ends up job, nothing I would tackle in the winter months, but now you should be good to get the research done, find the rite pro and be happy with your 100 year old heating system..

There is a market for that becket burner, ebay would be the best place to unload it if you can not find a buyer here on our classifieds and your contractor isn't interested...

good luck, looks like a fun project..

central return

@ April 9, 2014 4:08 PM in New install Furnace

When I built my house {4300 sq ft} I have a return in every room, my bedroom has 2 returns... returns are your friend the more the better..

I am on an install now, old construction/remodel- I have 6 and 7" supplies and 8" returns throughout the house, 2- 98% furnaces variable / modulating ect with dual air exchangers, and dual steam humidifiers , I will use a central return on small houses {or zones} with open layouts, or where cost is an issue, but for a decent FWA system, independant returns is the way to go...

As far as the dampers go, they arent that much more cost wise, but you will need to do all home runs to use them for each diffuser, the mv's I linked are not as loud other on the market, and if you size the duct correctly balancing shouldn't be a huge issue, its a small area, air flow will be key..

I like the grundfos pumps

@ April 9, 2014 9:07 AM in Recirc Line

The tacos look good too..
With Recirc systems, there are a few things I try to do when I install them to make them as efficient as possible..
First the less time you run them the better, so I install a timer and aquastat, install the a-stat as far from the heater and close to the last fixture as possible {harder to do if you use an all in one pump}...
make the recirc loop hold as little water as possible, small lines with a straight path
Insulate all the DHW lines as well as you can, I run insulated pex and then run them in a separate bay {near heating piping if possible} and insulate them bays {new construction of course}..
and run the recirc line at the lowest comfortable temperature...

The ideal systems have occupancy controls, so when someone is in the bathroom or approaching a kitchen sink the unit starts, then only circs until that fixture has hot water waiting...
Some day there will be faucets available that automatically do this and stop the pump when it is warm, but until then light, power, and motion sensors can be used, while timers and a-stats help, to me I just hate spending money on DHW. I can not wait for the day when DHW is handled with point of use heaters, just run cold lines and the heaters are built into all the fixtures...

Thats a small 90+

@ April 8, 2014 9:57 PM in New install Furnace

I wouldn't worry about the air trouble, it gets its combustion air from outside, problem solved, if you are worried about negative pressure, seal the ducts well, vent the dryer properly and use a small door vent...

Run at least 4- 6" vents and if you are using a central return run it so it is directly over their pellet stove, so they can run "fan only" and circulate the warm air from the pellet stove throughout the property... If you can get 12" flex for a return and maybe another small return outside the laundry room, you will be more than good...

stay away from 4" duct, make sure you have enough cfm to cool the chamber, you dont want to choke that thing to death, you will make short work of the heat exchangers with insufficient airflow...

I do not run anything but...

@ April 8, 2014 4:55 PM in Benefits of 2-pipe vs single

single line tiger loop systems.... No dual lines unless they are inground tanks and I haven't done one of them.... ever....

Spoke with Deb at Heating Help today

@ April 8, 2014 4:44 PM in Spoke with Deb at Heating Help today

I have been meaning to pick up the rest of Dans books, I have read greening steam and we have steam heat, and I have EDR {no fitter should be with out that one}, but I have wanted to pickup pumping away, pri sec made easy, and lost art of steam, and I just haven't had time, well I just learned we are going to go out of town to my inlaws {in Florida, we leave Friday}, and it dawned on me I have nothing to read while I am there. I read a lot in my free time and since I haven't had much of that it hasn't been a real issue.

So I called in to place the order to see if it was at all possible to get the 3 books before we leave on Friday and Deb said she would personally bring them to the post office today!!! I can't wait and I am very thankful, what great service with a friendly phone call, much appreciated...

thanks

@ April 8, 2014 4:36 PM in Central air vs mini split?

gonna have to look into it..

all in the flux

@ April 8, 2014 4:34 PM in New Lead Free ball valves

when I first started using the lead free stuff I didnt get leaks but the joints looked sub par, I changed fluxes and va walla, perfect... or kind of perfect..

Brick

@ April 8, 2014 4:32 PM in R- Value

I do .2 per inch, something like you are describing I would do r5 total... Is it exact, no probably not, is it rite enough without being horribly wrong, yah.... With brick it can depend on age, the quality of the seal, ect ect ect, I have seen double wall with an air gap, I have seen everything in that gap from foam to a piece of plywood to nothing but air... Like I said I do .2 for every inch of brick, then add what else is there, you will most likely be under r5 when you are done...

I have never had a property

@ April 8, 2014 1:47 AM in Value of converting oil/steam to modcon gas?

that I couldn't figure a way to vent.. Sure its not as easy as plugging into an existing chimney but nothing is impossible... Use your head and get er' done... I hear a lot of guys say, "how would you vent a tankless and a mod con"? Its easy, I have done it many many times, no complaints and the jobs still made money...

Thats funny you said that

@ April 7, 2014 4:40 PM in Install electric tank

I thought about 3 ways but then you still need an isolation valve on each tank since I 3 way is still on in one direction or the other... With the 6 valves you can use them to shut it down completely incase of service, with 3 ways you cant shut them off all together... plus 3 way ball valves are expensive, I pay $29 for one 3/4 3 way vs $30 for all 6 3/4 std ball valves...

I have tried many different ways to tackle DHW

@ April 7, 2014 4:28 PM in Indirect or Combo Boiler with Recirc DHT?

I just don't see the sense in running heating equipment year round, I don't like tanks {around here if you get 8 years you can count your self very lucky}, I don't see the sense in running hot water 24-7 when we use it for an hour a day, and I have had great luck with tanklesses, happy customers and good results all around... While the initial install can be costly, in 20 years or so when you have to replace it, you can do it yourself, 3 unions, plug it in, and hang it on the wall... I see this is the near future, your boiler breaks, you just plug in a new one...


For recircs I like the mini tank setup, another thing I do is run the recirc line as small as possible and make sure its insulated as well as your hot line where ever the recirc goes... http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-3-8-in-x-100-ft-Insulated-PEX-Pipe-U855I100/203316939?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-203316939&skwcid&kwd=&ci_sku=203316939&ci_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969

I would do this with colored valve handles..

@ April 7, 2014 7:13 AM in Install electric tank

So the valves that have to be open for the indirect to work would be Blue handled and there would be a blue label on the indirect, and the valves for the hybrid would have yellow handles with a yellow label on the hybrid..

The colored labels would say " to operate hybrid heater in summer months, open all yellow handle valves, shut boiler service switch and turn on hybrid tanks switch...

Now you could do this with a control and 6 electronic valves, but it would cost around $1000 just in materials, lol.. Much better option just to draw a diagram make some labels and trust the homeowner is smart enough to turn a valve {I know its asking a lot}... I honestly would probably take a picture of the valves in each position and have them printed and laminated then hung on each unit... even though its not hard to get, I feel some people may have trouble, lol....

I am so curious about radiant cooling

@ April 6, 2014 9:25 PM in Central air vs mini split?

I have never done it, not very popular around here... where can I go to read more about it...
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