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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on August 7, 2014

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We cant talk prices here BUT

@ May 4, 2014 11:10 AM in List of small mod/cons

For me to install a basic conventional gas boiler with a simple close spaced tee p/s system, add an os100 ODR sensor to the hydrostat, ect it is around half of what I would get for a TT solo60 installed... By the time I build the wall paint and mount the board hang everything, I could have the ci boiler almost done... Plus the boilers are twice the cost....

On another note, I dont like adding buffer tanks to small resi systems, as most of you know from my posts, I am not a fan of tanks in general, they just don't last anymore... The added expense of the tank its piping and control to me doesn't make sense. Now of course I end up installing them where they are needed, but I will first try to figure a way around the short cycling, there are a few options for getting longer run times out of systems that don't involve storage tanks...

I installed a gb162 in a large house a few years back, they had 11 zones and 3 or 4 of them were very small, bathrooms and hallways with their own t-stat... So I mentioned to them that it could be a problem and I was working off another contractors proposal so I was told we could deal with it if it arose...
sure enough that thing constantly cycled, clicking in and out not liking them short bb runs that probably called more than any other zone in the house...
So with some fancy control work, a few thermostat changes, I got the system to work without adding a tank, I want to say that boiler was installed 6 years and all is still well, now I have seen others that I went to or service calls, with a lot of faulty parts, I have to think from the boilers constantly cycling on and off, if you want your mod con to last, figure out a way to get the longest run times possible, but if adding a buffer tank is the only option, add in the cost of changing that tank once and a while.. A friend of mine just changed a 4 year old boiler buddy, I thought it would be under warranty but it turns out 3 years on the BB tanks!!! Buying a $1000 tank every 5 years would make me sick..

I use a solo 175 in my own house

@ May 4, 2014 8:00 AM in Triangle Tube Prestige Solo

Its is a large boiler, oversized for my 4000 sq ft.. Make sure you perform a heatloss and install what you need, larger will cause problems..

most ci boilers will last 30-40yrs

@ May 4, 2014 7:32 AM in List of small mod/cons

For example, the op's system, if it were my property I would...
Install the WM cg boiler, pipe it primary secondary {helps protect the boiler}, use outside combustion air {stops forcing the buildings envelope to fail}, Delta t circs, ODR, ect, But the install doesn't stop there...

Install a decent air remover {correctly}, check and treat the boiler water, do the math and run the proper minimum boiler pressure, make sure there are zero leaks, install as much ss, copper, and brass as possible {stay away from ferrous metals when possible, less rust is better}, install quality components and isolation valves at each component so when there is problem you can do it without draining the entire system {this keeps you from adding new water to the system}, install the correct venting correctly, install the unit high if there are water issues, and use a separate DHW machine...

For DHW I would use a Rinnai tankless... the heating unit will only run the heating season, no reason to run a heating boiler year round for DHW, having the unit shut off for 6 months every year will help it last longer...

So if you pay a little attention to these details you can easily get a decent ci boiler to go the 40 plus mark, I have some g115's out there that I installed and am confident they will still be in them basements in 45 years, we service them annually and see their condition some are already almost half way there and look brand new in and out!!!! I know this because I pulled one out of a house last year after the house flooded, the boiler was installed 10-15 years ago with untreated well water and when I put the borescope inside it looked BRAND NEW!!!

So protect the boiler with primary secondary piping, test and treat the water {fernox has a lot of options}, introduce as little new water once the system is in commision as possible, get all the air out, run the minimum temps and pressures, keep the steel and cast to a minimum, make sure its combustion is perfect, ect and these systems will last a long time...

What scares me about the mod cons we are seeing is the cost of components, the rate the components change, and the thin-ish heat exchangers.

Double the thickness of the HX's (thats not going to double the price of the unit}, get taco or honeywell ect to make an all in one mod con control so we know it will be available in 30 years and not cost more than a new boiler, keep it all very simple, supply sensor, return sensor, gas valve, done. {with of course the safety switches in there too}.
But the key would be basic gas valve, ignition, control, and venting components that interchange with other brands... We could keep a box of parts on the truck for all mod cons like we do with ci boilers, the boiler manufacturers can go back to designing hx's and insulated jackets...

I know there are some guys on here and contractors out there that just want to install mod cons all day, I can't blame you, they are light, clean, easy to install, and the profits reflect the opposite, BUT do the math, if the house is getting A/C or has an existing a/c system, install a heatpump for the shoulder seasons and a ci boiler for the heating season with a separate unit for DHW.
Sure the ci will not modulate BUT it doesnt have to, your ci boiler is only going to be running in the colder months, in the shoulder months where the unit would be modding to the basement you heatpumps are working. This type of system saves money and will get your customer 40+ years out of their ci boiler... Sure that isn't the best for your business plan since you will most likely not live long enough to change the boiler again, but that is fine with me as long as it is good for the customer...

Chris I understand where you are coming from BUT

@ May 3, 2014 4:11 PM in List of small mod/cons

If I were to go into a home and tell them "I can rip out all your perfectly working baseboard for X amount and reinstall a board that will allow you to drop the boiler temps an average 20 degrees" they are going to have 2 questions {if they are interested} first how much does it cost and second is how much does it save..... You do the math and let me know how much someone can save with a 1400 sq ft home spending $1100 a year to heat it with a ci boiler.. Unless you install HO board for much less than me, I am thinking their kids will have to live well into their 70's to pay for it, lol....

I actually make it a practice to install an additional coil on existing hydro air mod con retros, and I over size new systems when the budget allows, the sad part is most of the time when I do new construction it is for the GC and I never speak to the HO, so mentioning lowering boiler temps to the GC is going to just waste mine and his time because at the end of the conversation he is going to ask if it works both ways and if I can put a little less board and run the boiler hotter, to save him money.....

Here is what I always mention a small ci for... With properties that have short heat losses, you don't spend much for heat, so the additional costs that I personally see in the field, is hard to justify for such a small savings... Don't get me wrong, I install a lot of mod cons, but I do my best to put myself in the customers shoes, if he has a 30K BTU load and wants to save money, I am going to show him other places that will save him more than a mod con, for example {fake numbers} say a mod con install is $10K and a ci is $5K, I will show him how we can install the ci boiler and spend the other $5K on tightening up the envelope, new doors, windows, insulation, aux heatpumps, aux coal stove, ect... Or I will show him how he can spend it on something to make him more comfortable, central A/C, a new massaging recliner what ever...

I do believe in making the entire system work well, I have a deposit on a job where the heatloss was $58K BTU's, they have oil/steam and I am installing gas hydro airs with heatpumps and a Rinnai tankless. I gave him the price both ways with a mod con and without, and he asked if he was better off with the mod con and no heatpumps or the heatpumps and the ci, because he couldn't afford both... I told him I would do the ci and the heatpump- a few reasons, aux heat is nice, when your boiler is down you can run the heatpump as a back up- Heatpumps are inexpensive to run in the shoulder seasons {even compared to a mod con}- Boiler runs less with heatpumps- CI will last longer than mod con- Ci will cost less to maintain- CI will be more reliable- CI will be easier to repair he gave me the deposit for the heatpump/CI system..

Like I said, I do MANY mod cons, more than most companies around here, BUT IMO they are not the answer to every hydronic question... I have a solo 175 in my house, and had a gb before I switched {it was still new but I started selling tt's}, but I heat with LP and my house is over 4K sq ft, so 10% fuel costs can be $700 a year, with a 1100sq ft home on nat gas, 10% a year can be $75 a year, takes a lot of year savings under $100 a year to make up for the cost diff, and if that unit cooks a $850 board at year 5, let me know how happy your customer is when he breaks out the calculator....

TO me a mod con starts making sense around 70K BTU's with LP and 100K BTUs with nat gas, and even then if a board goes or a $700 fan, or the unit needs annual service like some of them do, it starts to not make sense fast... Now if the customer is a techy, very interested in being green, has no room for a ci, wants fancy, money is no object, ect then sell them what ever they want to buy, but when I walk into a house, for the most part I see a confused customer just looking to save some money over the life of his mortgage, trying justify spending almost double the cost upfront to save some money 6 months a year, I take it personally, and I have showed customers that putting the extra money down on their new home will save them more than any mod con can over the 30 year term, you would be shocked to see what an extra 5K saves you in 30 years!!!

Now I know there are rebates available that help with the costs, but I have yet to priced one where it made up for the difference {more like 20% of it }, other places may be different...

JUT FOR FUN-
go to http://www.mortgagecalculator.org/ put home value to 200K and loan amount to 200K with 5% intrest rate then look at the Total of 360 Payments it will be
$461,511.57 over 30 years, now put $5K down so enter 200K value with $195K loan amount total of 360 payments will be $451,848.78, you just doubled their money with no risk... Now I know a ci can break too, but in my experience mod cons have a ways to go before they are 30-40 year machines...

still have soe more valves

@ May 3, 2014 12:40 PM in Some stuff for sale...

I got all the valves shipped except for a bunch I put a side for one member, we spoke on the phone but I was in a basement so give me a call back and well get this done, thanks

plus I still have a few more if anyone else needs some...

Sorry it took so long to get them together, between going to florida and the house fire its been insane around here...

I agree

@ May 2, 2014 8:19 AM in List of small mod/cons

we need smaller mod cons, but the price has to somewhat follow...
Ideally a nice design that flows very well, and needs very little field supplied piping...

I really want to see them switch to a more convenient control system too, I wish Honeywell would make a mod con control that works for all the units, plug it rite into an exp zone control and odr and just have the boilers control handle modulation, safety, and high/low/diff limits...
What scares me is parts support in 30 years, for example a tt excellence control, if the units are still holding water in 30 years and the control gives up will there be one on the shelf somewhere, when at the current rate they will be on their 6th or 7th control...

If it was as easy as plugging in a new Honeywell unit and maintaining some taco controls for zoning and odr the parts would be readily available, less expensive, and all techs would be familiar with them since they wouldn't vary much... The modulation could be handled with pill modules or a direct upload form an internet download from each manufacturer... I'm not an engineer but I am sure it can be done, all the sensors would be the same, all the controls, it would be a perfect world...

small loads-

@ May 2, 2014 5:00 AM in List of small mod/cons

I see homeowners that get sold into mod cons when there were much better options for much less money.
For example, a 5-6 year old-ish Knight mod con, installed in a 3 bedroom home {1200sq}, needed a board and a fan after 6 years, the parts were over $1500!!!! And then they told me when they compared heating bills vs their old leaking boiler they were only saving about $20 a month!!!!

Like I said if you had a much larger heat loss it can start to make sense, but IMO mod cons have a ways to go before they are the answer to every question...

A small ci boiler can be installed to run efficiently, people get hung up on the 95% vs 85% numbers, the fact is a lot of the mod cons I have seen need annual service, while a ci boiler can go 40 years without being cleaned {I have a 25 year old gas furnace that has never been touched in one of my rental properties and I have seen many boilers that go their entire life without being cleaned or serviced {besides maybe a circ or sr}...

Look into the CG boilers, if you want a little more comfort and efficiency, run them with an ODR, pipe them pri/sec with delta t circs... I have done many installs this way and the units shine, last June I installed 4 of them small 25's with 4 Rinnai tanklesses in a 4 unit building , the apartments were 750-900sq ft and they were all warm all winter with endless hot water. They didn't get odr or anything fancy and I'll bet no one complained about what it cost to heat their apartments...

I would make the zones as large as possible no matter what boiler you go with, a ci will be more "forgiving" to small loads than a mod con will.
good luck

I have played with this

@ May 1, 2014 5:35 PM in Fixed Flow Rate and Mod-cons

I just target the boilers minimum flow rate and try to get close to that...

In my own home, I have tested back and forth with different delta ranges, 20 degrees seems to work fine, I have opened it up and closed it down and the cost of the energy per degree day doesn't change enough to see which way it goes...

Thats small

@ May 1, 2014 5:20 PM in List of small mod/cons

The TT60 is under 50K, but if I were you with that small load I would look into a small ci boiler, the amount of energy you will use to heat that space will never pay off with a mod con...

think of it this way...
A prius gets 55 mpg and costs $30K a comparable small no hybrid car gets 40 mpg and costs $15K, you only drive 8 miles a day, you would not be doing yourself any favors buying a hybrid, now if you drive 300 miles a day it would be a smart move...

Mod cons will not last as long as a ci, will cost more to maintain, ect...

look into the small Weil Mclain golds, cg series...

For example a WM CGI25 {net is around 37K BTU's}, piped primary secondary, with bumble bee pumps, an outdoor reset {either the hydrostat, a taco 700, or which ever you choose}, outside combustion air, ect you will only be losing the so called combustion efficiency difference which is around 10% {I would say more like 3-6% in the real world}, so if you are spending $600 a year to heat your space you will save a maximum of $60 a year, but now factor in the ci will last 40 vs 20 or so for a mod con, the ci will go years with out service vs the mod con will not.. And the ci will save you time, money on the install, money on maint., ect..ect..ect..

I would

@ April 30, 2014 6:39 PM in New workshop- Help with options

run natural gas from the house, you can get a sprinkler company to trench for you cheap, lay in the pipe, tracer, warning flags, get a couple risers, and if the meter needds to be upszed so be it...
For a boiler you can use a Rinnai rl80 to heat the water, I have a bunch of rinnai tankless powered radiant systems out there, they tend to work great...

Buy once cry once....

I normally

@ April 29, 2014 5:41 PM in Low loss header for dual heat sources

Pipe dual heat sources primary secondary, makes thisgs work very well and pretty simple to do..

I never install mixers on

@ April 29, 2014 7:34 AM in Mixing valve on Tankless...?

direct fired gas water tanks, {unless Its going to be a high temp tank} never had an inspector give me an issue about it..

I have installed a bunch of these now

@ April 28, 2014 9:38 PM in Failed ignition on triangle tube pt 110

and had this happen once, it was 4000 hours iwith no failures then it failed 5 times, I went checked and cleaned ignition system, everything looked good, reset it and hasn't happened since... Out of all the customers I installed them for this is the one I would pick NOT to have a problem with since she is a "complainer" but so far so good, if it fails again, I will change the cable and ignitor..

How would the 400l compare to

@ April 28, 2014 9:22 PM in Impressed by Wohler

this http://www.valuetesters.com/hvac/combustion-analyzer/testo-330-1-ll-combustion-analyzer-kit1.html , if you have any experience with testo?

Ice I see where your point and agree

@ April 28, 2014 7:57 PM in Mixing valve on Tankless...?

I mean do they make you put mixers on a 40 gallon gas fired tank? Its the same thing, BUT like I said around here, I don't argue, me and my partner own the company and learned long ago, we have a bunch of bosses, they are inspectors, just do what they want and be polite... I am young'ish and wont shy away from an argument if I feel I am rite, BUT I put inspectors in the same bin as you would put your wife or mother when it comes to arguments, just bite your tongue and try to get out with as little sacrifice as possible, lol...

I have good luck with inspectors, the work looks good, they wont say much, I tend to remember what each wants, I learn fast, so if I know the Cumberland inspector wants LWCO's on mod cons with them built in, I install them in Cumberland, but the Cranston inspector could care less, so I don't do it there.... I know an inspector that wants a firepmatic directly over the burner not on the ceiling so I install them directly over the burner when I am in his area, I know an inspector that wants sprinklers over all new boilers and direct fired tanks, so I install them in his area, others dont ask for it so I don't... Live and learn, next time you do a tankless in this guys back yard, make sure you price a mixer...

Years ago a local inspector would have to find something, he wouldn't leave until he found something wrong, he was an old timer and just would not sign off on the first visit, he did it to everyone, and the first few times, I made sure everything was perfect and I noticed he would just make something up, lol... Like he made me put hangers on a smoke pipe that was 18 inches long and went rite into the chimney {it was fastened to the flue and boiler with screws and l sheets, but he wanted something from the ceiling, lol...
So another old timer in the business told me, leave the pressure relief valve not piped down so he has something to find.. So I did, and it worked, I did 10-15 boilers that he inspected before he retired and everytime I would leave that pipe off and he would never mention that I left it off everytime...

I later found out he did it for the over time, he would come back after hours and get a little pay boost, but what ever, I just do my job as well as I can for me and my customers...

I am ready for new testers

@ April 28, 2014 7:42 PM in Impressed by Wohler

and looked into them a little, but never seen one in person, will they demo for me, I could probably get a few other companies to take a look at them. I was going to go with Testo because of their replaceable sensor, I use UEI rite now, and they are ok, very affordable, and reliable, but nothing fancy by any means...

I am the type that would need to stick it in the flue pipe before I commit, maybe we can get one up here to put my fingers on. Do they have a rep up here? I can host them at my shop or maybe Tim would be interested in helping...

I was going to purchase the testo's next week, I was working on getting a good price but now with Dan saying these are good I am back on the fence...

Why not

@ April 27, 2014 9:50 PM in Boiler flow

use bumble bees? Set them for your desired delta, there are rebate available to help with cost and they save some electricity too..

Another option is a flow restrictor like the watts p3 {I believe they make 3/4" versions}, I have never used them in this fashion, I normally use them on tankless water heaters but it should slow the flow, I dont like using restriction to slow pumps though, I would much rather see a delta t circ in there..

looks like it will go to me..

@ April 27, 2014 5:37 PM in Alpha motor fits non-alpha 15-55 body?

give it a try, or call g-fos to be sure..

I would just throw one on

@ April 27, 2014 2:57 PM in Mixing valve on Tankless...?

Probably cost less in gas and time going back and forth, just throw it on, it won't hurt...

t if the unit was limited to 120 degrees and had a t&p I don't see why they would ask for mixing...

Same to you

@ April 25, 2014 10:39 PM in Dealing with fire damage

Also electrical in our case, the investigator found an arced wire in the ceiling above a light fixture, its such a mess, they had to break every window, everything is flooded, shut the power off, took the gas meter out, just a bad day...

My eyes are itchy, skin is dry, I am super tired, but can not sleep...

No one was hurt, 2 cats were sadly lost but everyone is OK... Thanks for asking...

We had a fire today!!!

@ April 25, 2014 9:12 PM in Dealing with fire damage

Nick, I just got done from sitting with the fire inspector while he combed through a charred bedroom with a small rake....

I couldnt wait to wash that smell off of me....

Yup when done rite it can work well

@ April 24, 2014 7:00 PM in Apartment building zoning solution - Tekmar tn2?

but then your loops end up being so tight you can run into short cycle issues with cold start
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