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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on April 16, 2014

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The fittings on the panels are r20

@ March 31, 2014 1:34 PM in Bad hydronic panel install...

but the installer used 3/4" sched. 40 PVC... Its a mess, all but 2 joints are leaking...

Do you have a link to one of the adapters you used on the rifeng manifolds?

I hate to stray from wirsbo since they have been very good, but the home owners are on a tight budget, they spent a lot on this project, and now their out of state contractor is.........Out of state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am trying to keep the material cost down, the regular buderus adapters for the panles are around $20 each and I will need 5 of them, then the manifold, a roll of 3/4 pex, a roll of 1/2 pex, $100 of fittings, flanges, and hangers, 6 hours of labor and they should be in good shape...

thanks...

Bad hydronic panel install...

@ March 31, 2014 7:54 AM in Bad hydronic panel install...

OK, so its coming time to start going through all the jobs that this winter produced to be done this spring...
One is a house with a new finished basement, they have buderus model 11 panels installed, these are the 2 1/2" units, I like them and have used them before, although some customers get scared by the 12month warranty, they seem to work and hold up well, {although they dont come with the install fittings, and you need to use Buderuses for them not to leak}...

Anyway, They have 5 panels {4 at 3600btu and 1 2800btu}. The contractor {not heating, buildiing} did the install himself, he installed them like a baseboard loop, they are running of a ci oil boiler on a circulator {he installed a tee at the prv and another at the bottom drain, not a nice of a job either}.

The problem they are having besides a bunch of drips, is the first 2 rads are super hot and the last 3 are barely warm... Obviously this is because of the install... How he piped them, each panel has a home run back to the unfinished part of the basement, so I have a few options...

To keep costs down I was thinking install a 5 loop manifold { I was going to give these a try, never used them before, normally use the wirsbo http://www.pexsupply.com/Rifeng-RHM05-50PK-5-Loop-Stainless-Steel-Manifold-Package-1-2-PEX }, with a mixing valve and circ... Run each loop back to the manifold run a pair of 3/4's back to the boiler, manifold that in correctly and be done with it....

My questions are- 1 has anyone ever used them manifolds before?
2-does anyone know a fitting that will fit the panels besides the $35 buderus unit?
3-would I have to change the internal balance valves in the panels, I normally install the buderus stats they sell, but the customer is trying to spend as little as possible.. So this will be the first time leaving in the factory balance units...

thanks

IMO

@ March 31, 2014 12:33 AM in Value of converting oil/steam to modcon gas?

I would personally convert to some sort of forced hot water system, hydro air is nice do to the addition of central air conditioning...

As far as mod con vs conventional, I would need to know your current energy costs and or the heat loss for your building... It tends to make more sense for larger homes that use more energy. If you only spend $1500 a year for heat with a ci boiler, then a mod con may not last long enough for you to pay for the difference in cost, even after current rebates and incentives, especially after you factor in annual service, costly repairs, and the units shorter life span...

In my area a properly installed ci conventional boiler will last a long time, not need any annual service and go a long time with out a combustion related service issue {if ever}, also if installed correctly, pri/sec, delta t circs, odr, odca, ect the only savings a mod con would give you is the combustion efficiency which if you average is not as high as the rating on the brochure...

I have seen too many customers spend $15K on a nice mod con system that saves them $250 a year over a decent ci boiler, and then have to spend $800 on a board in 8 years, throwing their savings away and going 4-8+ days without heat while waiting for the part...

Let us know more about the building, emitter type, size, heat loss, ect and we can asnwer better...

As far as dhw goes, I dont like mixing heat and dhw, I like 2 separate units when possible, a tankless or hybrid water heater or both {use the tankless in the winter and the hybrid in the summer, is how I do it in my own home.}....

Cost?

@ March 31, 2014 12:18 AM in Navien 240 combi installed - I have concerns

We aren't allowed to talk price on this site...

Did you call your contractor?

Can you show us a picture of how its piped?

Also get us the gpm reading on your shower nozzle..

With a tankless system you want to be able to run your shower and faucets full hot with no cold mixing... Some systems and designs dont allow for this, but to me its ideal... 135 is too hot IMO, my tankless is set to 115 and 110 in the summer months...

If it were me..

@ March 30, 2014 5:48 PM in Riello flame sensor

I would test everything in the burner, go through it and check it all out, make sure the switches are adjusted correctly, gas pressure is rite, relay is working, ect.. Time is money, cant go back 15 times...

So if I came up with thinking it was the flame rod I would change it, after I cleaned it... You have an intermittent issue, so unless it does it in front of you its tough to pin point..

To test a flame sensor-
1- clean it and make sure its in the correct position...
2- with a micro amp meter, connect the neg wire to the wire and the positive side to the sensors connector...
3- start the unit as normal
4- after the burner is lit you should get a reading {some units are different, but most look for between 2 and 4}..

If its low or erratic change it.... Its a $40-50 part, not worth the fuel it takes to return...

Hopefully I am explaining this correctly.... good luck..

I can tell you first hand

@ March 30, 2014 5:29 PM in Gas piping

that you can not run a Rinnai tankless on 1/2 gas line...

I have gone to units that other people have installed because they cant get them to run rite and the bulk of them were insufficient volume... I seen one that was in service for 2 years, and once in a while they would get cold hot cold hot cold hot {but no error faults}, they wanted me to install a second one because the original installer told them their shower used too much water for a single unit.... I changed the gas line and it fixed the issue instantly....

Anyway, when it comes to gas lines, run them big to be safe... For a single tankless short run I may run 1" but normally run 1 1/4", the cost isn't much difference... Do it rite do it once...

I have had customers

@ March 30, 2014 5:22 PM in Navien 100,000 btu heating

ask for navians, and I always try to steer them in a different direction... They just are not worth the aggravation... I know some people say "I have had great luck with them" but I hear a lot of others saying the opposite... I have also been on the service side of them more than I should have... Plus when I spoke with their cs a few times, I was not impressed or satisfied...

You know the old sayings "you get what you pay for" or "if it seems to good to be true, its probably as good as it seems"... There are so many good units out there why mess around... I would honestly rather install a Rinnai unit with a fphx and make less money, than mess around with the navian unit...

Service/installer should check....

@ March 29, 2014 5:04 PM in Rinnai tankless woes

first the unit, obviously, if there are no codes, I would stand by the unit and watch it while you run the shower, if the unit stops making hot water but continues to flow water, there is an internal issue, most of which would be shown in the form of an error code....

Next and most probable, I would look into your shower valve, and or your plumbing, could be a bad washing machine check valve, mixing valve somewhere, ect ect ect.. If it is just the shower, I would tend to look there..

How about trying to run the shower, and a faucet does the hot water start hot and flow cold at both....

Is it a UV probe, rod,?

@ March 29, 2014 4:38 PM in Riello flame sensor

I have seen some rs's with a rod that runs opposite the electrode and others that had a UV probe kind of bolted to the left side of the fan housing pointing right...

Last rs I had with an intermittent issue, drove me crazy for 3 days, I hate to admit it turned me into a parts changer, I first checked the entire burner out {looked great} and fired great while I was in front of it, so I changed the rod, next day, call came back, so I went back and checked it again, someone else already changed the electrode assembly so I reisntalled the old one, 3 hours later it came back, so I changed the air switch, it came back again BUT I got there and it wouldn't light, THANK GOD, found a bad gas pressure switch changed it and I put all the old parts back on and it never came back again...

I hate them calls, someone needs to invent a camera that can watch the burner with a gauge and meter on each part, like a data logger with visual support...

Anyway if its a rod, clean it, and test it like any other, I am not positive on where its supposed to be maye between 2.0 and 4.0 hot, you will have to call riello or check the manual...
The rods are cheap $50 or so the photocell style is not at $300 or so...

"It's not a job until you get paid".

@ March 29, 2014 12:09 PM in Billing format

I like that, I am going to use that...

if its that tight

@ March 29, 2014 12:07 PM in Pipe Freezing

will you be able to get freeze brackets in there..

I was at a job where CJ's froze a 4" main and then welded in a couple valves, this was a huge building, and I was told draining it back would take 30 hours, they did the entire repair in under 5 hours... but they used nitrogen..

A friend of mine has the small ridgid machine, I am not sure if he ever did 2.5" but I seen him to 1.5 down to 1/2 a few times...

What does the break look like? Is it a bad joint, erosion, impact damage, splitting????

theory and practacality

@ March 29, 2014 11:54 AM in Altitudes with steamy attitudes:

in theory it makes sense...

I wonder what savings it would pose..... I remember a chart of how much energy it took to heat water to different temps, it was a graph that showed how much energy it took to heat 1ga from 50 to 60, to 70 to 80 to 90 to 100 and then it showed heating 2 ga to 100 vs heating 1 ga to 100, ect ect ect.. I looked for it a while back but couldnt find it, the first time I seen it was at a NORA class years ago...

I can honestly say

@ March 29, 2014 9:20 AM in The leak detection job from hell....

I never worked on anything that big... I remember reading this post when it was new, thinking, where would I start...

I do small stuff but have great luck with the thermal imagers, in something that big, I would need access to everything all at once so we could trace everything and follow the energy..

This winter I went to a call where they had a radiant slab and could hear the water feed "vibrating" non stop, luckily they were smart enough to know it was a new noise and call someone in {a friend of mines company}, they jack hammered the floor in 2 spots and had no luck, I went with the TI camera and found it in 4 minutes, about 25 feet away from the closest spot they jackhammered... this has happened a few times, that camera is worth its weight...

A lot gets lost through

@ March 29, 2014 1:17 AM in Billing format

emails, text messages, and second hand information...

I prefer face to face or worse case an over the phone, real conversation... Emails are going to make it too easy for someone to dance around...

Call him, and tell him, "look, this is the price, I am not in the business of playing games", tell him you want an answer if he will or will not pay.. if he will not {or says he will but the payment doesnt show in the allotted time, then make one last call, and tell him "if I don't get payment in 5 days, I am going to place a lien on the property and let a 3rd party figure out what is owed to me" he will then know that the house can not be sold with a lien and most likely he will have to be in person to deal with it...

Sucks that this is the game people play, but I have to agree with others and say to pick your work better, I personally would have called him and asked for a payment for materials before you let them through his door way, once they are on his property they are his...

How long do you think the down time would be?

@ March 29, 2014 1:09 AM in Pipe Freezing

I had to repair a 2" dhw line that fed a business complex with a restaurant, we ran 3/4" safe hoses {like an rv hose} to the restaurants sink, and it was down for a little over 4 hours, before I knocked it off I made sure everything was ready, found the leak with the camera, removed the wall panels and some flooring, got all my materials ready, and shut it down... 4 hours of repairs and it was ready to go back on...

Other times I have just scheduled the repair, I have a few restaurant accounts that are shut down from 11pm to 5 am and the work needs to be done in that time frame...

what type of work was this?

@ March 28, 2014 4:52 PM in Billing format

Hourly service or did you give him a proposal and or set a price before hand?

Here is another thing I learned over the years, some people hate to pay and no matter what your price is will never be happy...

Give him the breakdown if it is the difference between getting paid and not....

You need an agreement on cost before any billing can be done, this is why I like work orders and proposals... Did he agree on your hourly rate? When someone is out of the country its tough to communicate with things like billing... But it seems very easy for them to get you to do the work..

Tim will know this

@ March 28, 2014 1:14 PM in Modcons in Closets-

Thats who I would ask...

Tim will know this

@ March 28, 2014 1:13 PM in Modcons in Closets-

Thats who I would ask...

I pay tax at

@ March 28, 2014 12:17 PM in Billing format

the supply houses, and with the internet items I pay tax collected, my accountant does it all obviously. He has me keep my local purchases and out of state purchases separate... So yes I am sure you still have to pay tax but for the little guy that gets $500 a year and doesn't claim it as an expense I am sure it is different..
I don't know much about the tax side because like the law and insurance side of my business its on of the things I leave to the trusted pros I hire... I will change the oil in my service trucks,, fix a fender here and there, install a garage door opener at the shop, try and put office furniture together, but some stuff needs to be left to the pros...

yes

@ March 28, 2014 12:10 PM in Modcons in Closets-

An appliance that uses outside combustion air has different indoor space requirements than a unit that doesn't... Check the local code and manufacturers specs...

120 gallon tank

@ March 28, 2014 8:48 AM in Mod con and plate exchanger

I am trying to make something small that will be like a combi unit that can mount on the wall and cost around $500, lol.. 120 gallon tank isnt going to fit the project..

Your system sounds fun, I have done my share of systems that would have other techs scratching their heads, but I try to keep it as simple as possible...

As far as adding resistance, I havent noticed anything that would hurt performance, and believe it or not the return temps are lower even if the domestic isnt running {it cant run while the heat is circulating since it is priority}, but the px still gives up some energy... I have been thinking about this since I started, This will not work in a low temp radiant system, and with a odr with low return temps, it may work backwards with a px full of hot water and return temps lower than the dhw side... I realized that... I have been successful using a fphx in the return loop to preheat dhw on tanks though, that works well...

Tru Blu

@ March 27, 2014 11:11 PM in pipe dope

I use for everything but oil lines/tanks/ect and LP, I like leak lock for LP and refrigerant {if needed}.....

Tru blu is easy to use and stays good in a lot of temps, natural gas and water... they say oil too but I havent had great luck with it and oil...
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