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heatpro02920

heatpro02920

Joined on January 28, 2013

Last Post on August 7, 2014

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What is the reason for wanting to change?

@ April 22, 2014 10:39 AM in Electric VS Indirect

What is the reason behind changing how your dhw is made?

A decent coil can make plenty of water and work very well when installed correctly...

Are you not getting enough hot water? is it not hot enough? Fuel costs too high?

I have been installing the hybird water heaters for summer use, since the rebates are so high rite now... They are a great summer time option if you are just looking to not run your boiler in the non heating season...

I generally try to stay away from installing tanks when ever possible.... You may be able to get your tankless to meet your needs with very little work and effort...

What ice is talking about will work very well if your issue is not enough hot water and can be very cost effective..

Space is a commodity

@ April 22, 2014 8:21 AM in Tiger loop

I understand where a compressor would be handy, but my Nitrogen tanks can do almost everything the compressor can do, they all have adjustable regs that can adjust from 0 to way more than any soldered joint can take...

I think if you used your co2 cartridge you would be surprised how effective they can be, mine has a gauge and a valve on it, so I charge the unit, then snap the valve open...

We do take the a compressor with us if we are going to need one, if I am starting a large job with a lot of joints, a radiant job where they are doing floor work, any winterizing work, ect. But for pumping out tanks and systems I use the pony pump, and if its a boiler swap out there normally aren't any leaks, and when i charge the system I listen for the hissing, most of the time if there is a leak you hear the air in the system leaving and can shut it down and only have to drain a little back if any...
A compressor is definitely a nice tool, but I just dont have the room to lug one around all the time, I use single axle utility trucks so space has to be well thought out, On my old 2009 GMC I had a compressor mounted on the box, but it was a pita to get running when we did need it because we hardly ever used it and it sat out in the weather all the time..., and it still took up box room with all the hoses and battery....

Ill admit when I was doing a lot of new construction I used to keep one in the job box, but then over night the new construction shifted from base board to fwa and it was no longer needed...

Home depot

@ April 22, 2014 7:44 AM in Where to buy a furnace on Long Island

LOL..

I would go where ever your service tech friend has an account, what brands are you looking into? Is it oil, gas, natural draft, 90+? what is your heat loss, heat and a/c or heat only?

Then there is always the internet- but you still need to do a good heatloss calculation, and know exactly what you want and have to work with as far as dimensions, venting, and load... Furnaces can go from small cheap and basic like a single stage 80+ https://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453067314 to a modulating, variable speed, ecm motored, outdoor air sensing unit. Like the carrier Infinity 98, the lennox 98v, Armstrong 97mv, Trane xc95 mod, ect ect ect.... Bryant york and almost every other company now offer some type of 96+ variable modulating furnace https://www.theacoutlet.com/986TB66120V24-120000-Btu-96.7-Percent-Afue-Bryant-Gas-Furnace.htm but you really need to know what you are buying, easy to make the wrong choice...

Everyone does things their own way...

@ April 21, 2014 9:03 PM in Proper Wiring Help Needed

I see the lv and bx ran like that all the time, I don't do it myself because I do it the way I always did it, kind of stuck in my ways. I get on a job and it seems to go super fast when I do it the way I always did it...

And I as well as a lot of other guys will look at a different than our own practice and think its wrong or not as rite, but if its up to code, performs as intended, and the customer is happy with it, then its good...

I had people comment about how I wire in a zone valve control on a retrofit, since the wries are never long enough to reach the control I mount my control, then run 18-5 up to the zone valves, tie red and white into the t-stat wires and tire the blue, green, and yellow into 1, 2, and 3 on the zone valve... I strip the 18-5 back around 8 inches and put a couple screwdriver loops in the r,w and then the b,g,y it looks good when its done, IMO, its fast, convenient, and works well for me... Now a tech that works for me and a friend of mine in the field like to put a handy box in the ceiling and connect all the t-stat wires in there with new longer extensions that go to the control, then run 18-2 for that and 18-3 to each zone valve.... To me it takes too long, doesn't look as good, costs more in materials, and gets confusing when servicing...

I know a contractor that runs all his t-stats in one cable up to the ceiling {no box} then connects them all to a single cable and then runs 18-3 to each zone valve, so if he has 5 zones he runs 18-10 {10 different wires} for all the tstats and then wires each one, the wire he uses has double colors, so it for 18-10 it will be blue and then blue with a white stripe, then orange and orange with a white stripe, ect so each color is its own zone, then he puts a piece of that color electric tape on the zone that corresponds to it so the zone valve that he used for the orange wires gets some orange tape....

To me it all works, but I like my way...

I have a flow through pump tester

@ April 21, 2014 6:13 PM in Tiger loop

BUT, for a fast service call just to verify oil flow, my little clear hose is better than trying to point the jetline into a bucket, I never used a compressor to clear a blocked line, I have a couple co2 guns they work great, and I do ac so my nitrogen tank is never far away incase that wont work, lol....

I could not picture my customers face if I pulled a compressor out of my service body and started running extension cords and air hoses through the house, lol... Plus I am not a carpenter so I don't bring a compressor with me, I own a bunch of them, probably 3 or 4 small pancakes and twin tanks, I have a 15hp tri cyclinder for the duct cleaning, and an ingersoll rand 185 trailer mount diesel for the winterizing, I'm sure that one could blow 6 oil and cement sand through a 1/4" line, but I never used one for oil obstruction, if the pump cant push or pull it, the co2 always does... I also use the co2 gun for clogged condensate lines and to blow out dusty burner bodies....

How about

@ April 21, 2014 5:33 PM in Best Value in Combination Hydronic / Domestic Boiler and radiators

radiators with a small ci boiler instead of a mod con and then a direct fired water tank, that should be affordable...

I do this in my own home

@ April 21, 2014 7:02 AM in Replacing AC with heatpump?

I run the heatpump in the shoulder months as aux heat and my primary heat in the colder months once the heat pump is not efficient do to the outdoor temps.. I have installed many systems like this, sometimes moving or adding a return can make ceiling supply heating systems much more efficient and comfortable...

I don't mind the debate, lol

@ April 20, 2014 10:02 AM in losing heat

I would rather debate something I know about, since knowing that these new washers with 3 and 4 {some have a triple on the hot and then a single on the cold that just feeds to the hots valve assembly, try to figure that one out} solenoids can cause crossover is one of the only things I know about them, lol...

I have been on many service calls and have a few friends in the business that feel they can call me when ever they have a problem that takes more than 5 minutes to diagnose, so I tend to see A LOT of "different" situations.
I don't mind it, I like the challenge, and I like to think I am good at trouble shooting because I use what I like to call "Kid Logic", thats when you take something like a banging steam pipe from a clogged return and convert it to something so simple as thinking about it like an old man walking through a rocky tunnel, or thinking about power as a bouncing ball bouncing in and out of each rollout switch, or warm combustion air as a hot air balloon always wanting to rise and being pushed and pulled in the easiest direction but deflating when there is negative pressure...
I once walked into a basement that a well known local oil company with 15+ techs and 2 service managers had been pulling their hair out trying to figure out why this boiler was sooting up, as a favor to see what I thought could be causing the problem... It was a 3 section gold that would run for 5-8 days and plug rite up... They had done everything, measured combustion air, down fired, put a larger smoke pipe, a draft inducer, and this thing would still clog rite up in a week...

I asked when it started and no one knew, they had bought the house with a new boiler in it in the summer time and it didnt start sooting up until they used it for heat..

So I started by, getting everything back to where it should be, I put the correct nozzle back in, set the pump psi, set the combustion, draft was great, I went rite through it... And I take a smoke test- trace to zero, perfect... So what does that tell me, it runs fine while I am watching it, so WHAT CHANGES? I start looking around, basement is as good as clear, some storage in a corner, the laundry is upstairs, nothing to take my combustion air away...
So I close it up tight, shut the basement door, and take another smoke test again PERFECT....

Now I take a walk around the house, what is causing this? no cat fur in the burner fan, no loose debris getting sucked in, no centri air door, all the weird stuff I have seen in the past, so I am thinking this is going to be a new one, kind of excited about it to be honest...

And then I see it...............

A turbo blower, the type you would use to dry carpet. It was sitting next to a closet door with an extension cord wrapped around it.. I asked what they use that for and the replay was, His wife cooks for her side business from Friday night to Sunday night every week, and she puts that in the window since there is no kitchen exhaust fan, AAH HAA, lets throw it in the window and take a smoke test shall we, what did we find a 4 smoke...
I read the label and it was something like 2000 cfm, she used it all summer, but didnt plug the boiler because it was only running for dhw, as soon as it got a little cold and ran for heat {probably non stop since she was pumping heated air outside} it sooted up... case closed.. The service manager that was with me, said "you can not use that fan" I said "sure they can, just open this window at the same time and it wont go negative..." But they agreed it was not going to get used in the winter, since this was just a shoulder month, and she wouldnt be blowing out heated air in January...

Anyway, when it comes to trouble shooting, you need to think of everything you wouldn't think of, and use anyone elses experiences you can...

good call..

@ April 20, 2014 7:06 AM in Tiger loop

you are going to love that pump, it has more uses than just priming to... It can clear clogged oil lines, if it wont do it with vacuum, then hook it to the other side of the line and it should blow it out, sometimes keeping pressure on it and tapping the line with a wrnech helps, but it works..
It can also be used to pump detergents, anti frz, ect into systems, its an essential tool in the oil techs arsenal for sure...

Some other oil tools that help a lot...
small pocket draft gauge {bacharach, comes in a little leather pouch}
The Mitco tm2 ignitor tester {you dont have to open the cover, just sit it on the ignitor and it will tell you if its good from outside the burner...}
and the last one is a tool I made myself, its a clear chemical resistant hose with the connections to install between the jet line and the drawer assembly, so when I go to a service call, I can looses the jetline, move it over install my clear line, throw the ignitor tester on top of the burner, open the site door and hit the reset, now I can see some of the oil situation and the ignition before I even open the burner....

Anyway I can talk about this stuff all day ,good luck with the new tool...

OK

@ April 19, 2014 10:30 PM in new crown twz100 oil boiler will not start up and run

First, that control needs a good ground, make sure you hooked up l1 l2 and ground....

Next, the 8 code can mean a few things, it can mean the burner is running, the burner is not running but the primary locked out or that the high limit is satisfied, kind of a BS code...

So it sounds like your burner will not stay running, and locked out on 3 strikes... So you need to hold the reset button in until it resets the hard lockout...

Now most likely if your burner lit and didnt stay lit, you are not bright enough, meaning the fire isn't in tune so the cad cell detector is not telling the primary control there is a fire in the boiler and it is locking out... Sadly to say you need to adjust the burner and get it to fire correctly, you will need a combustion efficiency test...

How cold is the boiler, I have had crown and other brands that do not like to fire cold, for instance a buderus GB will not fire full of 40 degree water with a cold chimney, I had to run a blow dryer in the chamber on a few cold installs in the past... Another option is cutting the air back and running it rick until everything heats up, thats not going to help your cad cell issue but turning back the air until you see smoke then adding air until the smoke goes away should get you running...

You will want a pro to set your draft, pump psi, nozzle size, and combustion air, doing it by eye is risky business...

Curious- How did the fire look when it lit for 20 seconds, smokey, rumbly, yellow, orange, white, red?

How about another option entirely, lol

@ April 19, 2014 7:48 PM in Boiler Protection Piping

just to confuse you a bit more... Heres how I would do it...

I would add a circulator to the system that is ran by an aqaustat mounted in a flat plate heat exchanger, the other side of the fphx would have its own circ that runs with the low temps zones t-stat or floor sensor.. I have better drawings at my office but heres a fast one to give you the idea...

there are obviously a few other components, like prv's, expansion tanks, ect that will be needed, this drawing is just to give you the idea of how it will work...

The 180 boiler water will heat the fphx, but only until the a-stat is satisfied, so if you set the a-stat at 110 degrees that is all it will maintain... I would use a delta t circ with the fphx so you can control the transfer better...

you are welcome

@ April 19, 2014 8:06 AM in Can we split tankless on-demand hot water unit for hydro air & domestic hot water?

I would get prices both ways a propane high efficiency furnace like the Armstrong 97mv. Or the Lennox 98 or any almost 99% efficient furnace with variable speed and modulation should last 30 years and coat very littleto run... Plus for short money you cam add a case coil and condenser for ac... I know a combo or nodded takless sounds like a good way to take care of Dhw and heat but as ice sailor would say "you are stepping over 100 dollar bills to pick up pennies"

Most of the new controls

@ April 18, 2014 7:40 AM in Tiger loop

have a purge setting, you are rite after its full the vertical rise has very little to do with it...

They called their appliance repair guy

@ April 18, 2014 7:35 AM in losing heat

thats exactly what i did Ice, how it was explained to me is one valve turns on hot one valve urns on cold and then one turns on the tub, they mix in the valve housing and if you look at it you can see how it works inside the valve.. I am not an appliance tech, and no very little about them, besides this incident and my own washer I have no idea how they work, I put clothes in and they come out clean....

I was told that the new washers come with a check valve that screws on the hose inlet before the hose, so it must be a common problem, I mention it because if not for my thermal imager I would have had a hard time finding the issue...

Just something to look into, I seen it with my own eyes, turn the kitchen faucet on and the hot wter went hot all the way to the washer but came out of the wall behind the washer luke warm, turned off the cold supply to everything but the water heater and it was hot all over so I new it was cold mixing, checked all the shower valves, everything I could thnik of, traced it with the ti cam and watched it happen like a video game, it was like the hot was sucking the cold out of the washer hose.

The issue was old but when I put the Rinnai unit it the water must have thought it was easier to go through the washer solenoid than the rinnai unit and followed the path of least resistance... I noticed when I took the pre filter out of the loop it got warmer, that little resistance would help but when I shut the washer box off, it was perfect hot water everywhere....

If you could hold that valve in your hand you can see what I am talking about, not a great design and to me I dont see the point in using another valve to start and stop the tub, but they do, one for cold one for hot and one for the tub-2 water inlets and just one out to the tub...

I didn't mean to start an appliance debate, just sharing one of my experiences.

very nice

@ April 17, 2014 9:15 PM in Twin Steam Boilers - 4 Stages of Firing Rates

as always..

I have done a couple dual steam boiler setups, never staged the burners though, just the boilers so 2 stage..

Are them steam pipes getting insulated...

Did you hook up the vac gauges?

@ April 17, 2014 7:45 PM in Tiger loop

50 ft 9 feet high, I would pull oil to the tl with the hand pump first, that is a good run for sure, was this a suntec pump? 3/8 line with a few loops at the tank and burner?

Hand pump can be your best friend, if that pump didnt like pulling the oil with the tl imagine without it...

no oil tech should be without it.. they are around $75 at sid harveys or patriot supply online... http://www.westwoodproducts.com/product_group_t2_t30.htm

All you have to do is hook up the hand pump to your line, pull it 5 or 6 times and you will have oil, as soon as you see the tl is filling, connect your line back to your burner pump and fire her up, it will fire by the time the prepurge is done and the solenoid kicks... Riellos are notorious for this, they dont like pulling oil too far, high, or past an osv or check valve for that matter.. Once the oil is there, she will run for ever but you will need the pump to get the oil there for systems with osv's, long runs or overhead lines...

refractometer

@ April 17, 2014 2:44 PM in Glycol

get a total amount that the system holds and do the math to get your gycol percent, I would use your refractometer to test what is there... best bet would be to check with the manufacturer to see what and how they want it done..

May be

@ April 17, 2014 2:39 PM in losing heat

I am not a small appliance repair tech, they called someone in to fix it, but I seen the old part and it had the 3 solenoids, I have heard of others with a similar issue and I have seen the other dobule inlet setup with a triple valve assembly and then a single..

The washer we have at our house is crazy, Im sure it has a bunch of crazy valves in there, it has a a touch face controller that you can dial a temp range in...

call the pro back

@ April 17, 2014 12:41 PM in pilot light going out

give him a chance to figure out the issue, a call to slant fin tech support to see if this is a common issue wouldn't be a bad idea either...

Ice I hate to dissagree

@ April 17, 2014 12:31 PM in losing heat

But I was there on this one, lol...
The valve had 3 solenoids, and one outlet the middle solenoid was stuck open causing the water to mix through that valve.... These are popular now with them fancy machines and the energy star units...
heres a picture of what one looks like.. the one they pulled out was a little different, but you get the ide, the one I seen had the solenoids in a triangle pattern, I can not remember the brand.. I can not believe you made me look up a picture of a washer valve... I know I don't have the experience you do but I am hoping I know when I fixed something and when I stumbled through it, lol...
http://www.partselect.com/1482390-3-M-GE-WH13X10026-Triple-Water-Valve.jpg

There is another version of washer out there that will do the same thing, it has 3 solenoids on one side and 1 on the other, the cold pipes into the hot and then into another mixer, very weird way to get something done but they design the machines not me...
http://www.buyspares.co.uk/image/100/5045174321341/0/z/ and the other side is just a single, so they do the mixing with just one outlet..

I know the old washers and simple standard units may not have this stuff, and they just have a simple on off for each cold and hot, but I can promise you this has happened, I seen it with my own eyes... I wish someone told me about it before I had to figure it out myself....

thanks for second guessing me again though Ice, I think the first time was the vaughn pros being cement lined? LOL, keeps me on my toes.....

My drawings are in the pc at the shop

@ April 17, 2014 12:08 PM in Can we split tankless on-demand hot water unit for hydro air & domestic hot water?

here is a fast one I just made, this would be the best way to get it done, as you can see there are a lot of parts, and its not going to be as cost effective as you would think.. Beleive it or not you can get even more complicated than this, I have done this and tried and tested this to death...
I have a system out there I built very similar the gentleman actually repped Rinnai and loves the product, he wanted me to install it in the closet of his guest room {large room with a full bathroom, it was 600 sq ft total with a heat loss under 20K btus. I used a first company air handler with an additional water coil stacked on top of it {couldnt oversize the air handler too much because I would have had to oversize the a/c coil too which would have led to issues on that size}...

That system has worked well for years now and is propane... I went a few steps further with his, I installed a flow sensor on the hot water line so it would cut a call for heat and make hot water priority, I wired it with pre/post purge circuits so the air handler had hot water in it before it ran the fan and ran the fan until all the heat was gone at the end of the cycle...
His air handler side was ran low pressure with glycol so no frz circuit was needed, and since it did not mix with the dhw it was ok..

Keep in mind, these are expensive parts, you will need lead free fphx, circ, zone valve, ect everything on the dhw side will need to be lead free..

I would look into a properly sized tankless for DHW and a properly sized lp 95% furnace for heat, Ill bet the budget will be similar, and if you go with a small 30 ga direct tank, Ill bet the budget comes out less...

Now you can do this without the fphx and I have done it, but it doesnt work as well, and if your coil ever lets go and you have full domestic pressure feeding it, you may drown, and your insurance co will not be happy about the damage a domestic water line in your attic does...

good luck, like I said it will work, and can be setup nice, but its not a great practice...

Are you going to do this your self?

@ April 17, 2014 11:31 AM in Can we split tankless on-demand hot water unit for hydro air & domestic hot water?

Or higher a pro...

I have done this, but be warned if it is not done correctly {especially with lp} you will soot up that heat exchanger from close deltas...
First I will explain the process and parts...
Use something like a ru98 rinnai tankless, a 3 way zone valve a flat plate heat exchanger a switching relay, thermostat, ss circulator, aquastat, and 1 regular circulator...

So you plumb the tankless so that the hot out tees into the dhw piping and the fphx, then you have the cold in tee into the domestic cold with a check valve, you bridge the 3 way valve between the supply and return and use the aquastat to control it so when the delta comes back too close and would make the unit fire low and soot up it redirects it back into the air coil until it returns cold enough to fire the tankless at a good rate.. Over size the coil so that it can work at a low temperature, do your heat losses correctly, and plan the job well and it can work...
BUT, I can almost promise you it would be cheaper to install a small 90+ furnace in the duct work, it will be more reliable and work better with less thinking...
Just install a small water tank or a small tankless in the basement, then a 90+ furnace in the attic or where ever your ac is... done and easy..

If you are interested in using the rinnai, I have drawings of how to make it work and I have done it,
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