Joined on May 31, 2013
Last Post on March 7, 2014
@ March 7, 2014 12:53 PM in Recently Completed Radiant JobI love the boiler space layout.
@ March 3, 2014 7:10 PM in Hot RodI found an email address for you and forwarded the original to you.
@ March 3, 2014 2:23 PM in Hot RodI sent you a message via the "contact use" feature of the forum recently. I just want to make sure it got through to you.
@ March 3, 2014 8:53 AM in BTU Radiator Output? (see attached photo)But here are two resources for determining radiator output.
there are many more resources available. Google "cast iron radiator output". using the dimensions of your radiator, you should be able to get close.
@ March 1, 2014 3:20 PM in Cast Iron to Pex Zone and Pump and Meter questionone on each manifold would only control the flow to that manifold and not allow you to balance the flow to each load which allows you to compensate for different pipe length (head loss).
with the large pipe size you have and low head loss in your distribution you may not have to worry too much about balancing. If It were me and I was on a tight budget I would try it without balancing valves you can always add them later. You might find that you don't need it at all or only on one zone say that has a rad or two on really different lengths.
@ March 1, 2014 1:21 PM in Cast Iron to Pex Zone and Pump and Meter questionI have one, it reads 2-8 gpm (3/4 in), well made and works great. If you put one on each zone that wouldn't be too costly. You shouldn't need to more than 8 GPM in you loops It depends on how the rads are piped in each zone. However, if you want to put one on each rad return, that could add up a bit.
@ February 27, 2014 4:57 PM in Cast Iron to Pex Zone and Pump and Meter questionYou did not come across like that to me, at all.
Just a guy asking for help.
@ February 27, 2014 3:59 PM in Cast Iron to Pex Zone and Pump and Meter questionI am not a professional here. Just a home owner with a passion for this stuff. I designed my system, with a lot of help, and I installed it. I keep a log book and record readings on my system every day to help me with fine tuning it. It’s my baby, warts and all, So take what I say with the appropriate grains of salt.
I’m curious, Where do you live and What boiler do you have?
What your local plumbers are saying makes sense but so far I have not heard or read any remarks about TRV performance in variable environments. We have a had a pretty variable year here in CT and with ODR/ TRVs and a variable speed pump, I’m happy! I'm curious so I'm going to dig on that a little. Let’s see what the pros come back with.
I will say this about pump sizing, you need to know the flow requirements and the worst case head loss the pump will see. To determine flow you need to do a heat loss estimate on your house if you haven't done so.
Simple app that a lot of people use.
Search this forum for “heat loss” and there are several other recommendations. But I will say this, I spent a month on my heat loss, building a spreadsheet with all the various construction components because none of the available programs covered all the Hodge podge construction methods in my house. In the end my Heat Loss Calc was 42100. The simple applications were giving me something like 44000. Lesson learned, keep it simple!
Taco has several good basic hydronic courses available including heat loss calculations and circulator selection available at:
Also, Caleffi has some great learning resources at:
@ February 27, 2014 9:58 AM in Cast Iron to Pex Zone and Pump and Meter questionIs to drop the zone valves and use TRVs on on your radiators, if you have room to add them. The TRVs with the variable speed pump work very nice together. I agree with Rich, with the low head loss of your system and depending on your load, you might be able to get by with one circulator like a TACO Bumble Bee. And with the TRVs you have eliminated the three electrical circuits for the zone valves.
I put a system like this in my house this year and could not be happier, it is simple and effective. I had my eye on using a Delta-T circ but because of how small my system is I could not use Bumble Bee. The B&G ecocirc Auto (Delta-P) was the only Variable that could go low enough for my low flow and head.
@ February 19, 2014 8:46 AM in Steam/Water heat service in Providence RI areaIll do that Tim.
@ February 19, 2014 8:44 AM in No luck with my Noritz question"when a large draw is underway, and an additional outlet is opened, it drops the flame."
I had the same probelm and it was gas pressure being too low during the winter because of demand and Ice in the lines. We had to adjust our high usage to off peak times until the city got to our street in the line replacements.
I would ask your suppler install a pressure gauge at the meter and log your readings for a few days during peak and off peak times.
@ February 17, 2014 9:52 PM in Steam/Water heat service in Providence RI areathanks NBC,
My wife and travel to PVD often to swing dance and these are some of our friends from there. Im going to try and meet up with them and get pics etc.
@ February 17, 2014 11:23 AM in Steam/Water heat service in Providence RI areaSome friends from the Providence RI area are having some problems with their heating system: noise, leaking radiator and insufficient heat problems. they are not sure if they have steam or HW. But they have radiators and think there boiler is about 10 years old.
Id like to hook them up with someone reputable and didn't see anyone in Providence in "Find a Contractor". But some in MA not too far away.
Anybody interested or have a recommendation?
@ February 17, 2014 10:55 AM in how prevalent is this?I cant talk to the legality of using a hot water heater for heating but He missed the "pumping away" lessons and is pumping to the expansion tank.
@ February 3, 2014 3:56 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.On design day my heat loss is 42K and GPM requirement is 4.2. on a 30 degree day both are lower; GPM 3.3 and on a 50 degree day GPM is 2.7. So I have different GPM requirements depending on the ODT.
Based on your response it's obvious I am looking at this wrong. and that on the boiler loop I shouldn't be concerned with the system load vs GPM. The flow rate stays pretty much the same on the primary loop regardless of the load. I should determine GPM from page 13 (based on Delta T) then with the GMP determine the head from the tables on Pg 10. Then with Head and GPM choose the circulator.
Do I have that right?
Something that doesn't make sense is that if "flow limitation" is the Maximum flow Limitation, whys dose the table provide options to exceed the limitation, like 6.1 @20dT and 4.9 for 25dT?
Is the head loss provided in the page 13 tables just for the boiler or is it for a "typical" for a primary loop?
Sorry for being so dense. I appreciate the time you have taken to help me out.
@ February 3, 2014 11:17 AM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.Love it!
@ February 2, 2014 2:37 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.I plotted the 0015 15-58 curve together and, as you pointed out, the 15-58 is clearly the better choice. Not by much though. I think I will still be over pumping except on design day. Im going to rework my boiler loop head lose just to be sure.
The only thing I see that really covers a low flow and low head system like mine is a B&G ecocirc vario, etc. Is that a better choice or should I stick with something Viessmann recommends in case there is ever a warranty issue?
@ January 31, 2014 9:13 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.The recommended boiler pumps are: Grundfos UPS 15-58 (3-speed), Taco 0015, Wilo Star S 21 FX.
Regardless, I think your saying that I am overpumping in the boiler loop and I would be better off with the Grundfos. Ill have to compare curves and digest that.
@ January 31, 2014 1:22 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.is what I was thinking.
42000 BTUH Load, Right now I am only heating the first floor and basement so the total load is 10kish less.
Viessmann Low Loss Header .
Cast Rads with TRVS
One small radiant ceiling, two loops, about 120 ft long each
Rads oversized to match Radiant Ceiling temp. No mixing or zone valves.
boiler loop has a taco 0015 three speed on low.
System Loop has a B&G Eccocirc (auto version) at lowest setting, which feeds a System Manifold, from there, Home Run piping to rads and ceiling manifold.
Ceiling manifold feeds two loops. (small 99sqft room)
Design system flow is 4.2 GPM with no branch having more that .5 except the basement rad which calculates to 1.5.
Data sample from a colder day
Boiler T 133
Flue T 126
Boiler Ret 125
Manf Sup 132
Manf Ret 118
Manif Δ 14
Ceiling Sup 131
Ceiling Ret 109
Ceiling Δ 22
#Rad is just the different radiators measured dead center top with a cheap IR thermometer. krad is a not cast, it's a tall steel column radiator.
All the TRVs are wide open for now while Im balancing things.
Boiler return is from a boiler gauge installed after the boiler circulator about a foot from the boiler inlet.
CST is common Supply Temp which I think is the LLH temp. But so far that's only hearsay I cannot find it in any Viessmann documentation.
Manf is the system manifold, a Viega with temp gauges
Ceiling is a Roth two port manifold with guages
@ January 31, 2014 12:02 PM in Reading Vitodens 200W B2HA Return Temp.Any way to read the return water temp in the coding? Ive been logging system data a few times a day since startup and noticed that the return water temp that I read on the boiler gauge I installed has been between 118 and 122 degrees which seems high to me based on boiler temps from 124-129. Not the Delta t I was expecting. But them I don't really know what to expect.
I'm wondering it the gauge is really out of calibration and just want to verify it. With return water temp being such a big deal in condensing boilers I would think it would be monitored in the system at some point. I cant find it in the service manual but it may be called something else .
Out Door Temp, Boiler Temp, Flue Temp and Common Supply Temp (LLH sensor I think) are all right up front under "information", " General".