Heating Help

some things to think about

@ February 26, 2011 8:13 AM in HARPER

Yes harper it can be done but converting a 2 pipe steam system to a hot water system requires some math to ensure the raditors can produce enough heat to heat your home on design day . Also the bigger promblem is will the existing piping going to be able to handle the 15 to 18 psi  of pressure which it has never seen as a steam system that is the real question and an be costly . Unless you are willing to take those chances make sure who ever does this conversion fiqures the edr of your existing rads and a room by room heat lose for your home i believe that you would save more and have less hassle to have your 2 pipe system checked out by some one who knows steam 2 pipe systems and have them check every out to ensure all traps ,crossover traps and controls are working properly.I myself like other on this site would never do that type of conversion job.Over time you may develope leaks due to the piping never seeing that type of pressure and who ever does it make sure they add some exrta pipe supports being now those pipe shall be handling alot more weight then the piping supports have ever seen.I am wondering why you want to convert do you presently have issues with your systems performace? i think you won't be see alot of savings unless your existing raditor are grossly over sized  and you are installing  a modulating condensing boiler and please remenber  that no matter what boiler type you put in be sure that the system is completly flushed out of crude and that y strainers be installed on the return to keep that crude out of your boiler and out of your circulators impellar.I personally have done work on promblem systems that where knuckle headed by others and when done the HO where amazed that there fuel usage went way down and there indoor comfort went way up things to consider.Peace and good luck clammy

Outside temp

@ February 23, 2011 1:48 PM in Why do we use outside temperature to trigger boiler instead of inside temp?

I believe part of the reason boilers start on outside temp is  beause it is required by most housing authorities to guarantee heat for the rent paying tenants.as for inside sensors i am a big believer of them and i have seen  in all cases which i have use them i found even though the heat timer which was there was calling for heat while the temperture average set up i had installed kept the boiler off due  to the fact that the temperture average t stat was satisfyed . the heat timer was set up and running for years before i got there except there was under and over heating issues which where straightened out later. The TAS worked fine i have used them as indoor feed back and  then installed a inexpensive ranco set point controller to sense outddor temp this set up has worked good with steam systems .If it is a hot water heating system i think i would use a outdoor reset control and use the temperture averaging thermostat  to bring the boiler on .I have used white rodgers 1F93-380 with 3 remote sensors and the stat located in the boiler room with it's sensing not being included .Hope this helps and gives you some ideas  peace and good luck clammy

unico

@ February 23, 2011 12:40 PM in Hi Velocity Cooling?

Steve i have installed unico systems and the oldest one i personally installedon my own and not for a ompany i worked for  has been running with no issues for at least 8 or 9 years ,I personally would never use there fiberglass duct system to me it is cheap and sooner or  later it will become damaged and the other risks of fiberglass being blown into the air steam .A former boss of mine who taught me alot had this to say about fiberglass duct work you put that crap in peoples homes that you do not like  and plan on never serviing ever and i have always remenbered that and followed it to the letter . i have always installed them using exatly what they say 26 gauge round sheet metal .All seams and joints are sealed using hardcast gasket tape and then externally wrapped with a mimiun of R8 fiberglass duct wraps .Properly wrapping duct work is also a art form ,it should be wrapped loosely and not compressed all seams should have a 3 to 4 inch over lapped and stappled with a duct stapler and all wrapped seams to be taped with a fiberglass re enforced tape ..Any one can slam in a unico system but remenber this will it be installed as the manafacture suggestes? I have over the years completly redone unico system which where leakly and very noisey why cause they where never installed properly, A properly installed hi vee system should be just as quite as a conventinal system .I also have never done a 2 story home with 2 systems unless each floor needed more then 5 tons ,The big promblem with a 2 system set up is where are you pulling the return air from the 1 st floor system ? Just about ever hi vee system i have seen with 2 systems was pulling all the return air from a basement and to me that is total BS.The reason being they did not want to lose the space for a wall return .I also do not do hydro air to much heat lose and dis comfort and waste of eletric running the fan .I wish you the best of luck i personally only give quotes to those who know my work because i am to old to tried and sick of having my prices but up against a bunch of hacks who will never get it right and never ome back to get it right because they did not do it right in the first place .In losing your a/c system should be as quite as a baseboard hot water heating system if the supplty air grills and returns are loud you did not get a real system just some butchery.Wishing you the best of luck and peace and learn as much as you can cause lately most are much better sales guys then mechanics i know i see it way to much peace and good luck clammy  sorry for the long rant

Things to check

@ February 19, 2011 8:22 AM in question on return trap & air vent

Besides the air vent .I would take a look at below the return trap where your wet return and the discharge from the return trap  tie together near the floor.I could not really see if there where 2 check valves  .I would take them apart and make sure they are working properly  they could be logged with mud not letting the trap discharge into the boiler.On another note i would also get rid of That pa404 pressuretroll and get a honeywell vaporstat instead most older 2 pipe systems where vapor and with that pa4040 you are running to high a pressure which may cause water stacking to high in the returns .Also being this was just replaced what type of boiler (age) was the older one and water was the water level height in omparsion to the new boiler.A boiler with a much lower water line then the original water line can cause all types of issues some of which can be flooding ,ineffecient steam distrubition and issue with returning condensate .Sorry i did not repost quicker.I would check some of thereturn piping for blockage and the boiler water height also .peace and good luck clammy

Same as ron jr

@ February 18, 2011 9:30 AM in resealing analyzer probe holes in vent

I do the same thing for oil stuff as ron and for mod cons i use nylon 3/8 bolts for the plastics vent systems . i like using the nylon instead of a steel 3/8 bolt on plastic vent systems .I also have used stainless steell bolts on oil flues but i usually don't have them sitting on the truck most of the time.Either way i am not a big fan of the aliumiun tape over the hole looks kinda haky.Peace and good luck clammy

answers

@ February 17, 2011 11:29 AM in Gorton hoffmann no no no

Thanks Frank but as far as i know there are no R.E. Michaels around here aside from you and the web i have never heard of them nor had any mech i know even suggest them.As for Gorton  usually when i need them it is for main vents and occasionaly i will use there rad vents when that is what where there direct replacement .Unless you are going to do all the math for the amount of air needed to be removed from that steam branchand rad with gortons you may have to go back and jockey some vents around and usually people don't want to pay for that so it ends up being a freebee which at this point i cannot afford to do for free and money is very tight every where.What sticks is that you used to be able to go to a supply house and get what brand you wanted and the size you need now it really seems tht no one wants to stock anything and what they do stock is usually garbage .Over the past year i have had dole main vents be garbage right outta the bag and the only to go back be questioned on where i got them and pay again for another dole and cross my fingers and hope they last . As for gorton # 1 and 2 i will next time i need them order them from pex supply being the mark up on them from the supply house that some times has them  leaves zero mark up for myself so i end up only making my labor which is what 5 minutes to replace a main vent and i ended up losing on that deal .I wish i was a bit more of a huckester and was able to hammer my custermers hard and heavy like other out there offer BS servies ( skills which only on the yellow pages exist ) which makes HO feel all warm and fuzzy but basically cover nothing except peace of mind if they don't mind writing a check.Sorry for the rant i guess the air vent issues set it off and the fact that the ecomony is rebounding so excellently that it leaves me all this time to rant plusjust about  no body wants to spend a dime and  they except you to work for a bowl of soup but bitch that they got such a terrible job from the other guy who won't return phone calls but they paided the price they wanted to very very funny stuff,Again soory for the super rant peace and good luck clammy

i know

@ February 17, 2011 9:46 AM in Gorton hoffmann no no no

Yeah Frank i know who is suppose to carry them but it seems every body wants cheap so those who are suppose to carry both brands tend to push and sell the cheaper easier marked up brands over Hoffman and Gorton (being they are out of stock concerning hoffmanns and gortons).In the future i will just direct my customers  to go to pex supply and order them there they are about 50 to 65% cheaper then the supply houses and much less of a run around and hassle for me .I personally don't deal with on line supply houses they are to face less to me and i do like to support my local supply house i think it is a good thing but when it comes to rad vents i believe i am done with the chase and paying alot for garbage vents that fail and i replace them and get no credit on my account it is not worth it plus i cannot afford it and i try to be fair to my customers weather they are new or old  ones.With the last search I ended up going to the cheapo getting maid of mists and they seemed to work fine gave HO the receipt so when the go they can replace them .I was offered them also at a big chain supply house at about a 100% mark up over the cheapo pretty funny at least at the depo they can be return the supply house forget about it .With every passing day things seem to not get better just worse and the ethics of some companies don't fall to far from bernie madoff in what they do and there excuses to jack a bill and not really fix the issue at hand being they would not make any easy money on big mark up on parts strange days it seems .I guess i should start thinking like everybody else being that's what every body else does but i guess sooner then later i will go the way of the dodo bird .Peace and good luck clammy

Maybe late but i'll try

@ February 16, 2011 2:58 PM in HTP Questions?

Maybe not so muh a tech question as a part question,Are you able to get just the gas valve control plug instead of buying a complete wiring harness.Which contains the ac to dc invertor  built into plug housing .Had one go and it was a hassle luckly i had a spare 140 sitting around so i scabbed it off .clammy

WOW !!!

@ February 15, 2011 6:23 PM in Boiler of the year

That is awesome i think i have seen it all and should get outta the business cause i must be doing it all wrong that is amazing and to think that guy got paid to boot ! It must be in new jersey cause all the guys use DWV on steam  especially on semi comerical jobs at least in bergen county  it is much cheaper then regular copper fittings that you get at the scrap yard by the pound ! That is $$$$$$ awesome ,amazing and probably the high bidder .I love it i really do but i would have loved to hear the explanation to the home owner on why it ain't right and have them reply the it works wonderful until you got there .Again totally OMG awesome .Sorry i am so excited it's just i love it when other enter my realm .Peace and good luck clammy

Gorton hoffmann no no no

@ February 15, 2011 6:06 PM in Gorton hoffmann no no no

Is it totally me or is every supply house carring garbage or what .I don't think wanting to get 1/2 doz hoffmann 1A would be so difficult .If i would  want some over price dole.watts made in china everybody has them,  ask for a couple of hoffmanns 1A no dice .I called 6 local supply house no body has them but they did offer me all the easy mark up brands .What is the world or the USA  coming to the home of garbage  where if you can't mark it up 100% why sell it .It's great if you are offering a tail light warranty on those vents or don't mind going back for free and changing them for some more garbage.Sorry for the super rant but i wasted about 2.5 hours today between driving and alling ended up gving in and going to the homo depo at least your an return them  jsut pick up for the first time maid o mist at least i can return them for cash instead of never getting credit for them at the supply house .Again sorry for the super rant but then what is the world coming to .Anybody else see this or is it just me ? peace and good luck clammy

Whoa momma

@ February 15, 2011 5:48 PM in question on return trap & air vent

I think you need to find a real steam guy .Do you think you an post a picture a little bit futher away to show more of your boiler near boiler piping.As much as i can see from your picture your boiler seems to be completly piped wrong i see no common header ,equilizer nor hartford loop may be it's your picture not showing  it but it seems your near boiler piping may not be correct .If the installer left you the installation and operation manual for the boiler (which he should have) right there will show the proper way to pipe the boiler and near boiler piping .On another note that system was most likely a vapor system and you should have  vaporststat instead of a pressuretroll.But if you feel the piping is a OK please check the manual i do not think it is from your photos .If the installer did not know what the boiler return trap and alos burnt up your thermostat i truely don't think he should be working on your system least of all don't let him rip it out you will regrete it for sure .On another note what is the smaller 3/4 steel pipe piped into the top of the boiler for it has me wondering ?I have been doing this for like over 20 years and the supply piping is not correct get some body who know what they are doing cause that guy don,t! peace and good luck clammy

not my perferred way

@ February 14, 2011 4:49 PM in Dropped instrument header

Hello Crash even though i have seen it done that way also i would rather have seen a cross tee where the elbow is and a 12 inch nipple raising the whole assemble higher  with another cross tee and then the 3/4 x 1/4 tees for the pressure trolls and gauges .This way checking and flushing out the assemble is done very easily and quickly.You would of course need brass pigtails to protect the pressure trolls.All this is of course more then what the manufactures recommend or suggest but for myself if i am going to be married to a install then i am going to do it so first off it easy to clean and ensure to myself that i won't have a nuisance service call later.Peace and good luck clammy

reversable door ?

@ February 14, 2011 2:23 PM in Piping question

AJ alot of the swing away type doors are resverable take a look through the installation and operation booklet which come with the boiler .What brand of boiler are you installing ,Peace and good luck clammy

OIl pump question

@ February 14, 2011 10:17 AM in Oil burner lock-out problems

Dennis what type of 2 stage pump did you use a suntec b? I question this because in the past i also have had lock out issue with horizontal hot air furnaces whih where installed above the tank usually in automotive garages (always had promblems on every job like that)  After doing exactly what you did i  changed the  A pump to a B  pump but still had issues and then  i realized that the older burners pump was a 2 stage either j or h style  pump (cannot remember was a long time ago) I went back to the shop i worked at and got the larger 2 stage pump and installed it and that was that the end of the lock outs and issues .As a note for the future when you see a larger pump J or H on a over head burner remenber to get one for the new install and i know it worked without issues for a short time but it always seemed to bite me in the #ss later on.As for the day tank set up last time i needed one for a replacement (a few years ago ) i was totally unable to locate one and ended up going with a transfer pump set up with pressure swithes not my favorite set up what an one do .As for tiger loops i usually always like to use them i am not a big fan on recirc oil and all that extra filtering that goes on espically when you are filter 18 gpm and only burner 1 or 2 gph espically on a older in ground tank it gets to be a real hassel after oil tank fills and changing filter 2 or 3 times a heating season.Also as a side note is the burner equipted with oil delay valve and a setable pre and post purge oil ad relay if so set it up for a little bit longer pre time and that should help make sure you have a stead oil supply as the 2 pipe oil set up should self bleed it self and help you by not going into lock lock.Sorry for the long post and i hope this help you out hate pulling my hair out sepically since there ain't much left .Peace and good luck  clammy

steam side connection

@ February 14, 2011 8:38 AM in New pressuretrol same problems

Steam side connection means tieing it into the top nipple off the sight glass piping and extending the water side so the sight glass assemble lines back up properly.The other alturnative is to add a tee to the 3/4 nipple that the safety valve is attached to .My point is basically to raise the location of the presssuretroll so the diapharm and the pig tail see only steam and is not effected by surging of the boiler nor becomes filled with water which over time can block  the ablitlity to sense the boiler pressure  .I have always thought that locating them off of the lwco /sight glass assemble was just a cheaper way of packaging the boiler where the installer  would not have to install it nor wire it but in my mind not the most ideal location but that is just me and i have seen them there working fine for years with no issues .Usually i will move them on my installs due to the fact that i do not want to it for free when there is a issue .I try not to hammer my custermers on extras even though most of the time it has nothing to due with my part of the install but basically it is the nature of the beast and of good custermer realtions even though i usually loose money wise but money is not everything at least to me it just pays the bills.Sorry i don't have any photos my main computer is done and i have lost all my pics and i have completly stopped the whole picture posting thing i have no ego so there's no need to do it plus as sweet as i an do them nobody wants to pay for it either way .Sorry for any rants hope this helps peace and good luck clammy

pressuretrol piping

@ February 13, 2011 11:54 AM in New pressuretrol same problems

Donny i realize that the pressuretrol pipe has always been off your low water cut off piping but i would suggest to raise the pig tail up about 6 inhes using a 1/4 X6 nipple and a 1/4 coupling this is the easiest way to raise it's height .Or even better would be to add a 1/2  x 1/4 tee  to the steam side of your boilers sight glass lwco piping  and equal it out of course with the water side connetion also .it is also helpful to use cross tees to connect the sight glass assemble it makes it real easy to brush everything out to ensure that you do not get a build up of crap.The other opition is to add a tee to the 3/4 pipe which your safety is conneted to you may have to legnthen your wiring though. I personally do not like having my pressuretrolls that close to the boiler water line it seem that the pig tail gets water logged and slamms the bellows assemble of the pressure troll.Give it  a try and as other have suggested maybe add a pressure gauge that has a lower range then the one you have but aording to code that 0to15 psi gauge must stay .Hope this helps peace and good luck .clammy PS i also noticed thatyour cut in should be set at ,5 and the ut out wheel at 1

Just wondering

@ February 10, 2011 10:31 PM in Solia boiler not heating up

Eric just wondering was a heatlose done and if so is the boiler sized to this lose .From the looks of your pics it would seem to me at a glance that your mains are over sized and probalbly could have been reduced before tying into your boiler .Fiqure out what the lose is for each side of your mains being they look to be to seperate (2 supply 2 return) Was this system a gravity system or just a large water content system.If the boiler was sized properly then your promblem lies in the piping and flow rates .If your heat lose is correct then you will have to straighten out the piping .Did you follow the manafactures suggested piping and install the return thermostatic valve with a system by pass ? Seeing you have isolation valves in your photo have you tryed throlting them to lower the flow rate through the system which should help the boiler get up to temp and allow more supply side to by pass back to the boiler return to keep you above the gas  condensation point .Also have you checked your heat lose room to room in comparision to the radition in each room.if your stat is getting satisflyed with below 180 water then your main conern would be keeping the boilers temp above flue gas condenstaion point which is about 145 degrees .What type of temp differnce are you getting across the system .Without being there it's a little difficult but i would say it's the large water volume and exceeding the recommended flow rates for the boiler.I have run into systems with  simalar promblems and it was nothing that could not be cured with the properly sized system by pass with a globe valve to throttle it .Hope this helps peace and good luck clammy

Here's the skinny

@ February 9, 2011 10:13 AM in Combi wood /gas with large storage tank question

Well the wood/gas set up is  a tarn 2200 set up we set up the gas gun and had it running properly and did use a CA to dial it in correctly.The HO and a plumber had piped it but from the diagrams from tarn where not even closely followed i guess some cannot follow simple  piping diagrams .I went through it with the HO but he really does not understandand no matter how i tryed to explain it he does not get it but does kinda realize it's not totally correct when he gets his first gas bill i kinda think he will be calling or unwiring the gas gun and contiune to load wood  ,There was a large buffer tank with copper coils installed except none of it is piped right being even though he is constantly dumping heat into the tank he is not even using it domistic pre heat capacity due to the domestic water is not piped correctly nor did he install any type of mixing valve  both he and the other plumber though that he did not have one before so why do i need it now.The guy is on a first name base with the tarn guys and they have told him it is not correct and the guy just states yeah yeah but it works he did install the mixing valve on the return to keep the return water temp up but it is piped completly wrong.As far as i know it was another carrot and the donkey theme i did the set up (C A ) to help my buddy pro bona and i can see that i probalbly just wasted my time and gas and will get nothing out of it in the long run oh well it's nice to see how badly some things can be done and still manage to get a passing inspetion sticker with no backflow ,prv or low water cut off or dump load .No wonder i some times feel i should get into another line of work being any idiot can do what i do exept they don't want to spend 2 grand for a CA so they might as well use that carrot to there advantage .Nother one bites the dust peace and good luck clammy

Things as usual

@ February 7, 2011 8:06 AM in Bad replacement install

Even though they want it all, this system will not work properly until the boiler piping is corrected for starters.As for the last raditor if it did not heat with the last boiler it is probalby due to the lack of piping insulation which in my experence is usually one reason why some times raditors at the end of mains do not heat completly as without the mains being insulated you will waste alot of heat .I have in the past insulated steams mains in a few homes and each and every home owner has stated there fuel comsumption was less and there systems where quiter and there raditors got hotter then before .As for removing burners and plugging i believe it is not condoned by most manafatures and will in all likelyhood void any manafatures warranty and there also could be issues with draft and heat distrubtion across boiler sections but this is up to you.As for myself i would explain the oversized boiler ,piping ,main venting and insulation issues with the home owner and if they did not believe me that would be the end of it for me being i am not doing this work for my own benefit but to straighten out the mess some one else created .From my experences i look and see lots of knucklehead installs with all of the issues you have stated and most HO just give me that glazed holiday ham look and really do not  want to spend any extra money at which point i tell them to contact the original installers who either is not in the bussiness any more or state that that's the way steam systems works and that they should convert to hot water baseboard .Some times being the bearer of bad news or telling it the way it is not what people want ot hear all you an do my friend is tell them the truth and what it will cost to correct any other issues which will not be corrected (oversized boiler) and how that will play into the proper operation of the system .Get it all in writing and be crystal clear on what you are going to do and what they should except and of course your price will most likely be more then the original installation but you get what you pay for let them make the choice and move on to the next job no sense is wasting time you are not getting paid for i know in the past i have gotten jerked around and penny pinched alot .Now i look i tellem i price it they cry and i move on not to sound negative which most say i can be (just based on true reality)there's no sense wasting your time either to not get the work or just to get your brain picked and not get paided forgetaboutit .It sounds like you are on the right path for correcting it but if the HO don't believe it nor wants to pay unless you need pratice on piping and repairs and wear a good guy cape price it over you butt and move on they giot waht they paid for   peace and good luck clammy

Thanks Hot Rod

@ February 6, 2011 9:27 AM in Combi wood /gas with large storage tank question

Thanks Hot Rod for the informational article.I believe from what i was told that he has a large pressurized storage tank and the boiler is a combination unit with the ability to burn wood or gas it is  a all in one type boiler .i will no more on tues day wheni get a look see .Thanks again  great artile peace and good luck clammy

a little bit more info i think?

@ February 5, 2011 4:45 PM in Combi wood /gas with large storage tank question

Thanks for the reply as far as i have been told it is a indoor unit ,wood fired with a aux gas gun hot water boiler  .It is not like a tarm unit being it does not hold a large quanity of water .I was told that there ia a very large storage tank there they are using for storage being they have only used it burning wood .I was also told there where no bypasses or 3 valve ways between the boiler and the storage and until i see it i believe they are pulling heat out of the buffer ,my thoughts are that when you are burning inexpensive wood (getting it for free) it's no big deal keeping the storage tank warm but if you are paying for the gas it ain't so good .As for the storage tank my buddy states it is huge volume some where maybe in 1000 gallons indoor in a sub basement .Depending on what i see i would believe that if the system pulls off the storage tank to heat the home then this guy can except a pretty large gas bill .I was told the whole house is cast iron baseboard and about 2500 to 3000 sq ft . I am going there this tues to finish the wiring and set up the gas gun depending upon what i see .As i stated in the first post this unit was imported from sweden and was installed about 12 years ago the gas set up came with the unit but was aside from the gas line  hook up it was never  wired orput into service .I was wondering if what  i am stating makes  any sense .I know i would rather have my gas burner working off my indoor thermostat rather then trying to maintain 160 or 180 temp in a 1000 gallon storage tanks .What's your thoughts .Peae n good luck clammy

Combi wood /gas with large storage tank question

@ February 5, 2011 11:23 AM in Combi wood /gas with large storage tank question

I have a question on a combination wood /gas  burner hot water boiler .I understand that with type of set up the buffer is used for storage when the wood is the heat source .But when the gas side is operating should there be a three or four way valve to by pass the storage tank being there is no reason to heat it due to there is no storage needed due to the burner operating only on a call for heat and it's aquastat.The main corcern being the cost of maintaining the large buffer tank using a gas gun being the HO has never even turned the gas side on ever and has strickly burned wood for like 12 years.I was told that it does have some piping issues and that the original installation company had to re pipe a few times due to some issue .I was also told the boiler was imported from sweeden i will be looking at it next week .I gather the guy is getting tried of burner wood and wants the luxury of the gas so they an get away from being a slave to the flame .Thanks for any input and advie.peace n good luck clammy