Joined on May 7, 2004
Last Post on December 5, 2013
@ December 5, 2013 1:23 AM in Hot water baseboard heatingi have a common weed burner with an uncommon head and no reg i can slam at leaast 84000 btu's and hour out of it , in less than 1 hour i can have sweated your clothes off your back in 30 below in a 1200 to 1800 sq ft room with no question in my mind whatsoever.
if an 80 K boiler running for days and weeks on end cannot make hot water nor heat the space , then you need to find who clocked the meter and find out from them if this thing is running on some sort of pilot or what precisely the current exiting boiler water temp is .
this sounds like you do not even have any circulation whatsoever ..other than maybe single pipe gravity flow due to conduction to some heated pipe nearby the pilot ..
you may have the only gravity alpine in North America.
Where is even one gauge or readout that any of us have seen on this boiler?
@ December 5, 2013 12:26 AM in Anotherso thank you for your insight and help.
@ December 4, 2013 9:36 PM in Pex fittings and flowI wanted to do a complete header in white pex al pex ,stepping away from the black iron on a boiler years back , and this sounds like your Caleffi adventure is the Bomb . ! lol...
I have since seen some Swiss condensing boilers that look like they were built with stealth technology from another planet that have caught my eye .. .
their's seemed to be piped avec swoopies in stainless and some press couplings ..
Thank You again, Hot Rod ...,
sometimes, i feel like the Canadian Mounty Dudly Do right , far from the beaten path in some remote un named forest ...*~//: )
We waited for the Lost Wilo transit cargo liner to circumnavigate the Earth a few times over the years prior to it landing with the delta P Circs .. i think Boris may be still at large ...
You have so many new experiences, parts, pieces and information and with your ability to see a solution , wow what a deal !
there did not materialize on my first reconn mission to town an immediate purchase of 4 28 mm X 1" adapter /transition coupling buh some how the folks here will make them out of thin air next time around , ....
i am optimistic now. *~//: )
@ December 4, 2013 2:10 PM in Pex fittings and flowAre there any couplings/ transitions made for one inch ?
Are they transitioned thru British thread or ?
@ December 4, 2013 3:21 AM in BTU Meteri know many of them i just do not want to elucidate upon them at the moment.
There are things in the world,
that revel in absurdity and will likely continue long after we are dead and gone .
let us just say things may not always appear as simple as we thought.
May tomorrow be a better day .
@ December 4, 2013 2:52 AM in Ideal pex routing for underfloor install?it is very near the outskirts , ...of the , ... Twilight Zone.
here heat that stays with us is a good thing ..lol so me going to get a 2 meg 121 % efficent and put it smack dab in the miiddle of the house ...who needs emitters ?
this thing will heat way way up and theres enough iron in it to last for like days : )
solly must be the CO getting to me ...
Or it could be the turkey ... i have been freaking with a boiler for days ...
first i over think things way too much .... and am always certain that if the manufacturer could get 87 % i could get 90 lol.. maybe even 91 ...
of course deep am confident it is no way they are telling us the full story so there must be at least 5 more % there somewhere ...: ))) we just gotta brave it and think out of the box.
this generally leads me into more and more work i ought not have had to do ....
ok so enough of my Problem .
it is getting colder again drat the cold Hurray for Global Warming !
maybe in a few years our homes willself heat from radiation from the years of nuclear power plants production schedule of the land of China in conjunction with the one coal mine and new coal power generation plant they built at like one a week for a couple years now.
the old saying of
"I know you are trying to heat my house from your boiler ,...buh it is an exercise in futility "
may have to give way to their steadfast determination ...lol...
Sorry , i digress...
i am a bit tired this evening although once i get some food in me i think i can help a bit more after i pass out and reawaken..
i give you this as another thought , i have not abandoned you .. you seem to be picking up on all the ideas that are being offered from the vetranos of Hydronic floor heating ..
like i said earlier it s not one of my more favorite ways to roll.
and as you can see , there are "Hidden" reasons i might have for this opinion.
my heat source and its location and the type etc and a host of other variables come into play when i let someone convince me that this is what they really really want to have me do..... Mag , here we have a few guys who think it is the best thing since toast and sliced bread , and like Mark will attest , there is more than one way to do things and the economy is there and so is the comfort .
that , along with my trust that one of these guys will come along and have pictures of their work and fill you in on another set of How To from their repertoire , i have procrastinated a couple days ... hang with me a bit more ...
that way , you may get even more out of the answers to your questions ...
i am optimistic , for You .
me go FOOD!
@ December 3, 2013 12:43 AM in Oil / Gas Nozzle conversion - HELP!One other thing is would they install gas if you were buying a new gas stove and oven ?
if so , then , you might be able to keep the oil for now pay the 125 for the line in and meter ,.
have your Gas plumber up size the pipe to a complete load of new appliances and boiler ,
bring it into the house . then you might be able to run out the 34 black iron etc ..for the new oven range ... when you went to sell say well we have gas with the provision for more fixture loads , including a Boiler , Water heater , Gas dryer and sealed gas fireplace ......
then you make some improvements and it gives you or them the option to upgrade...
the gas company might roll with that approach as well. just make sure you get the plumber to size the supply for that .
here we have no problem with doing that ,as the supply the Gas company line installs and the meter for residential are all the same thing ..the permits and inspections must all be passed naturally , however your oversizing an incoming line is not an issue as it will exceed code .
here is a u tube 22 second blurb of a boiler with a riello for an example .
riello natural gas burner
@ December 2, 2013 11:43 PM in guys! I fixed the pipe noise!You remember , sometimes that some wd 40 and a cheapo plastic bag can help fix these wierd noises . now Toilet paper and duct tape was your own thinking and fix ..
you did well .
mind if i use your fix in the future?
Because it sounds even cheaper than my own :) lol and you got a lot of real time experience on making it happen .
maybe you are in the wrong line of work :)
You certainly know how to solve a problem .
Wish you were here .:)
@ December 2, 2013 2:39 AM in BTU Meterit has an apartment at each end and 3 in the middle .
the two end apartments have three walls to the exterior or "To the Weather"
the other three see the inside walls of the adjacent apartments ...
no doubt this inspired Edward Allen Poe to write this story ...
@ December 2, 2013 12:48 AM in Ideal pex routing for underfloor install?"Not sure I understand, Isn't heat transferred through conduction with the transfer plates?"
if you have 40 less feet per loop or more thats 40 less feet of transfer plates ....
i say things differently however for what ever reason i seem to think it means exactly what i said .
you lose some heat transfer through conduction thru a plate attached to the floor ."
the left side of example 1 shows approximately 24 '-0" of pipe loss to loops ,
the second drawing shows approximately 64 '-0" loss for loops ,
24 from 64 = 40 ,
so i am saying that you are losing potentially 40 more feet of plates in the area described.
ok , let's see, ... if you take and aim your middle fingers at each other , and your thumbs straight up , and then you point away from your body and look at the base of your index fingers of both hands and imagine your thumb was right there ...
you would have just described what i call simply , the left and right hand rules of physics.
right had rule being motion flux current , left hand rule being or field velocity and force.
what these things are i am not into at the moment buh they indicate Vectors ...
they are mutually perpendicular.
their origin, lets call it for now, would be described as the base of the forefinger basically for want of the easiest description .
these are what common shapes we see and agree look like in the physical world ,
they are three D :)
Ouspensky and the philosophers and meta-physicists i leave to describe the parts of object we are looking at and do not actually s
ee, buh for now, roll with me on this , it has Dimension .
that means in this case, that, the plane we are heating will not be able to "See" the pipe in a transfer plate, because like a snail ,(it, the transfer plate) , is traveling on a line on a plane . that is what i am referring to when i said "you lose some heat transfer through conduction thru a plate attached to the floor ."
i suppose that is clear as mud lol....
trust me it is poor economy .
@ December 2, 2013 12:30 AM in Adding ferrous to closed systemmight have a solution for you.
from time to time he may part with some of his art work ...
@ December 2, 2013 12:24 AM in Apprenticeship Modelhas been "Modernized". ....
The only chance on the green Earth , 70 % covered with water ,is in our being able to reach younger folks who will remain to continually doing their best for their communities.
like i said years ago it is Not getting any easier for the younger folks .
and i do not know what it will be like or what they are going to do ,when they approach our age.
last Sunday night , on my way back home from work , i saw one of the young guys out there off to tune up and commission two Lockinvars while he grabbed something to eat at the grocery deli ... it made me happy...
@ December 1, 2013 11:07 PM in Circulater for condensate loop off of steam boilerlets install the circulator in a pit , that way in two years you can give it a decent burial : ))
buh bronze body will live long time .
i never used a steel body so , i dont know what they would be like ..however the impellers on even the Band G i have seen looking like not much more than a wheel ,
expensive is expensive buh cheap is not cheap.
@ December 1, 2013 9:41 PM in NEW STEAM BOILER IS BANGING! HELP!it has nice grade steam looks like it would be clean ,
do you have time for one more pic to the left of the pic we are looking at and one that goes over to the right closer to the pipes where there is some copper ?
Thank you .
@ December 1, 2013 3:38 PM in Fan/limit rising with fire offhave been thru hundreds of thousands of off on tentionings or flexings so something that
i added to my list of things to do long long time ago when checking a Furnace was to push it in and turn it way round to the right clock wise and hold it thru its return just to exercise it out beyond where it normally turns off and on at.
cleaning them is not all that difficult to do , either ,
Harvey homeowner is in awe of the things he notices , so be careful if you do that with the power on because it ''makes" . and breaks ...
it is similar to getting a no heat and going over and plugging in the appliance .. they are often speechless because they know that They did not un plug it ...vibration and harmonics have their own way of doing things ...
build up over time of layers of dust etc do not tend to help matters either .. so maybe you give it a try or shut the power off and take it out and clean it .
see how that works out.
sometimes , things like to do what they have been doing... so it cold be the minor technicality is still in its environment that may have caused the old one to bind.
i mean it IS possible....
@ December 1, 2013 3:17 PM in need a little informationthe Dr's have us eat after an operation do funny stuff like when your feet take off in some other direction while walking... i was like
' Hey ! come back here you ! '
i ate a plastic fork tine while hammering down some New York steak on sale at 50 percent off and 50 % off of that price at like 2 a.m.
16000 $ later...
they hadn't found the tine buh assured me i didn't have cancer lol..
man that hurts when i think about it any way , speedy recovery and steer away from stairs lol.. because them sideways pills or whatever they are are Brutal.!!
@ December 1, 2013 3:06 PM in What happened to all the solar thermal systems from 30-40 years ago?I did not know that ..
that is some mighty fine copper paint with the copper gutters by the way.
looks like the sensor needed some camo..though.. *~//: )
@ December 1, 2013 1:11 PM in Ideal pex routing for underfloor install?http://www.siouxchief.com/products/support/supply-hangers/plastic-cts/cts-isolators/pipeeye
these are something that is similar in application and use however at or near the same price point.
the clamp you show we call "Micky Mouse ears"
The wholesale companies usually have them in pretty much the same area as all these plastic clamps and squeakers they basically are all protecting the pipe from abrasion and expansion . and all are helping with the alignment as it were .
pex tubing insulators , we call Squeakers because they not only protect from abrasion the add support and keep the expansion noises down so that the home owner is not wondering where all thee squeaking keeps coming from every time there is a call for heat ..
we use these on copper tubing as well. save yourself time by not using screws to hold them in place and buy them in like 100 count or 50 count bags .
the drills we commonly use are what are refered to as right angle drills .. my old wolverine was replaced by a black and decker same design now Dewalt makes them ,
there head spaces the pipe away when held square to drill 1/-3/8 right where you want them or youcan turn th handle 90 degrees to get closer and drill at a slight angle ..
Milwalkee also makes a Heavy right angle same sorta deal faster revs is what i do not like andthe extra weight , many plumbers use the lighter version they make and they are ok for the most part with a smaller body a different handle (More like a 3/8ths drill the fact they are right angle drills allows you to get two hands on them to keep the cord from twisting the living crappola out of your wrist.. then there are some beefy Hole hoggs .. i would not advise you to buy one , they are stronger than one might imagine lol..
i owned one of them many decades back .... they have a slow roll buh even at that can wrap you around their little finger sort to speak.. start a thread Best drill for plumbing and bingo the horror stories will begin to arise over going air born and what not lol... source ? being on a ladder leaning out to drill a hole and the hole hog or right angle spun the guy off the ladder and wrapped him around a steel post...: ))
do not ask me how i might know this..
the header well couple few years back 2 X 3 or so maybe 7 or eight even , i burned some daylight with a designer at Wirsbo and showed him a configuration similar to his two three and 4 port PLS fittings that i thought would help radiant installers . basically they allow you to run 1/2" into them a piece with a 3/4" boier purge a place to put an air bleeder and a place to connect the supply .. all in one pls fitting sort to speak .
well i have some and they are the definitive headder in my opinion .
Upunor makes them ,
here is one he made i like it too because it is tight and still has enough half inch ports for a purge and could be laid flat under a floor.
the guy is always thinking and really there is so many things he would probably like to build because the industry is one that like trucking "Rolls" in America .
if you get one of their catalogues for this year and look at the multi port PLS you will find a variety of configurations ..i use these fittings for radiant heating as well as plumbing potable water.
the picture of his six port i could even see in ground warming and green house , applications ,land scaping irrigation apps , maybe even some snow mely could be made less of an ordeal with fittings as tight at this .
...hope the ideas help too maybe when you see these fittings you will wonder why you burned so much time making a header .
i can see , a six port Thru fitting in my minds eye , Now That , might not even be that bad a deal ...lol.. there are so many good human beings working in our industry
.. some we never meet or even know they exist , each doing their part and mostly no one would ever even know all the good they do over their lifetime of work..
This place i Love this place : )) heatinghelp .com really has the human being side of things together ... *~//: )
look up watering hole ... he he he in the search column ... maybe it will bring up and old post it is sorta interesting ....
@ December 1, 2013 12:18 AM in Ideal pex routing for underfloor install?that would work , however ,
roll with me on this ,
1. if you drill a whole 1- 3/8ths one squeaker can fit in the hole with one piece of 1/2" or you can use 3/4" squeakers and one piece of 3/4" can fit the pipe being ok with that .
2, because it is a dimension change perpendicular to the surface that you intend to attach the plates , you are money in the bank to drill a 1 and 3/8Ths hole such that it is 3/8ths from the bottom of the top cord . that is quite often permissible by many manufacturers and most build inspection departments .
3. there are also larger plastic squeakers for larger tubing , and while 1- 3/8ths can be placed just about anywhere , 2 inch may require dimension from the end of joists.
like if you wanted to drill 2 and 5 or 2 and 9/16ths you may have to be 8 inches from the end of the bearing closest to you on outside walls ,inside beams or some load bearing shear walls .. each manufacturer has some set of rules they are certain the structural engineers that they hired wont bash them all day long over ...lol..
they may say well you can drill 3 " holes , 2 feet away from an outside load bearing wall , if they are no more than 1 " to the nearest chord ,
for ease of operation go with find out what type of floor joists that you have and get the straight scoop..,
some may allow closer spacing if you add 1/2" plywood to the surfaces of the web that you drill thru .. if it is not a big issue one 2 and 5/8ths or 2 and 9 1/16ths allows you to simply fasten one end after threading it thru the holes then with an uncoiler and or a friend you can slowly and carefully pull the pipe thru and once you are out at the perimeter add a little more, then go back and pound it into the plates with a rubber mallet . when you get to the end of the plate go about 6 7 inches out and tack it with a talon clamp .
use both hands to bend it slowly without kinking it so it is now in alingment with the other plate in that bay boink it with a mallet about a foot add another talon clamp and continue boinking the pipe in with the rubber mallet till you are at the end of the plate .
go to the next bay same deal again when you and your friend get to the last bay you will have some pipe left over you could if you drilled larger holes run both tubes thru the same hole and larger plastic squeakers or whatever when you have threaded that end thru the holes go back pound the slack into the rest of the last plate .
maybe tack a talon clamp 6 inches or so away from the plate and go back to each bay and bang in a talon clip rigthy tighty to where the tube leaves the plate that looks decent and keeps it in better alingement where it leaves the plate .
you may even find htat the one hole is not binding any of the pipe and it can be zip tied together to keep it looking nice thru the larger hole 8" away 3/8ths of an inch down from the top cord.
the 8 " is just a number remember , it will allow you some elbow room to work so that is not altogether undesirable ...
small zones of 600 feet help where you may not particulairily need heat 24/ 7 . so , consider zoning before taking off on your adventure.
may be you can run the other zone "Hotter " or have more BTU's available for the livingroom in the evenings or whatever. one more thing in this
keep your mind open to obstacles when laying out the plates and also consider laying a piece thru the hole plate to plate end with some tube boinked into it that way you can with 5 feet of tubing maybe six determine a specific starting point for laying out the plates and checking if you can get a straight line thing going on, earlier on..
i hope this stick s with you .
because when you cut the plates to fit making one cut on a plate and cleaning the burrs off with like a pipe reamer on both sides of the cut makes for a more reliable system overall.
if you take that same piece of pipe you were using to start the lay out you can "Practise hammering Down 1 foot into the cut end that you de burred and then pulling it back out of the plate.
check the pipe for any signs of like o barrier cuts the stuff is tough buh just having done that much will make it a whole lot easier to hammer UP into place and less likely that you will be cutting lines into the pex.
this is probably over loading the brain cells...
however read it twice and you will see that there may be some things that will help you in your contemplation of your project....
@ November 30, 2013 5:02 PM in Riello post purgewhile positive shut off is tight either way , from time to time there have been some minor technicalities with both .
were it not the case , there would not be electrical diagrams showing the removal of the electronic shutter or parts and pieces to fix or remove the hydraulic shutter .
during routine maintenance ? unlikely. normally its 2 a.m. on a holiday and 40 50 below outside , 40 miles out of town ,on a road named ,
i would never come back to this place were i you ,
Nodwell gully ,
or some catchy reminder ...
@ November 30, 2013 4:14 PM in Hot water baseboard heatingfor a moment?
i'd like to discuss range ability and true primary secondary , and branch flow , and parallel primary off a branch in conjunction with domestic priority over ride with the onboard controls ,
because this is the next stumbling block i think the guy will encounter.
@ November 30, 2013 7:31 AM in Ideal pex routing for underfloor install?and just for the heck of it , on the one pic on the left vs the one pic on the right i made a rough approximation of how many feet of lost radiation by plates did each represent .
then i over estimated the plain jane normal way against your idea , well , you are probable well over 40 ' of wasted radiation on just those two pics alone were the pics showing equal lengths of pipe.
that is to me , backwards to the way to roll. not to mention the added work .
if there is a difficult way to accomplish the same thing i have probably seen it and some of its close cousins .
one of the neglected aspects is economy of pipe .
looking forward , the pipe to open air loses some btu's per hr also .every time you change planes and every time you ad curves uies swoopy 90's or go three dimensional :) 3D well, the plates sorta dont work .
so you also must consider the bending ratios of that dimension , therin is the crux of the matter .
running things returns lets say , along a beam well thats not a bad idea , you have a surface of a piece of thermal mass unhindered by more variables for a path ... just going with the left side pic you lose say close to 18 " per bay on the outer loops in each bay and 2 '-8" ish on the two that change dimension and cross over thats like 4 ' or so call it 5 even per bay.
the other way you lose closer to 4 ' per bay on the loops that go bay to bay and about 6 feet on the ones that change dimension .. so thats like 10 ' per bay your tails or journey there to the end of the return i called a wash .. i do not see that as economical comfortable in any way . by the way it makes for more targets ...
insulation detail , lack of two holed squeakers for two pipes thru one hole , means there would be still more snafus along the way squeakers are good to keep the pipes from continual stress Kinking , scraping , while allowing temp differences for expansion all come into play in your over all comfort.
i think that pretty much covers your first question
.although when you want to purge air via a pump thru each individual loop of half inch it will be seeing you again , and when you go back to insulate it and vapor barrier it ..
and find out that all these ups and downs isn't making that any easier .. threading it thru all the outside holes you may find to be more of a challenge than you needed to be doing as well.
i need to get some rest . it is 3 30 in the a.m. here...
my day went long :)
see you tomorrow and i will add some more ideas on things that might be more in line with reducing wasted effort and pipe and fittings and time ...